> on 10/12/07 1:57 PM, Anthony at wikimail(a)inbox.org wrote:
>
> > On 10/12/07, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >> How about the argument as to whether being gay is a choice or not. I
> >> can choose my religion. I cannot choose my taste in sexual partners.
> >>
> > I don't think you can choose your beliefs
>
> Are you serious, Anthony?
>
> Marc Riddell
>
I think Anthony means that the possibility to choose your beliefs is storngly influenced by the environment in which you are raised.
Roberto (Snowdog)
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> Last I heard, the last terror attack in the US was 2001. Now how many
> have there been in Egypt or in close proximity to it? Read the links in
> all the mails that have been going around here.
>
> Jason Safoutin
When you travel to a foreign country, terrorism is not the only factor of risk. There's also plain criminality. And you can find it in abundace in every big city, be it Alexandria or NYC.
Anyway, every year millions of people go to Egypt and come back home safely. Unfortunately, some people die. It can be because of a kamikaze attack in Sharm el Sheik, or it can be because of a drunk teenager driving to fast in your direction. You know, life sucks!
Still all this ranting about putting at risk the life of wikimedians is ridicolous. You talk like all wikimedians in Alexandria will be round up by egyptian police and deported in the egyptian equivalent of Guantanamo.
Now I quit this silly conversation and leave you alone with your fears. Take care! The world is a dangerous place to live.
Roberto (Snowdog)
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>
> foundation-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
>> Jason Safoutin ha scritto:
>>
>>> They are not willing to build a diverse culture which included
>>> homosexuals.
>>>
>> Tell it to egyptrian LGBT community. The chances that things change, in Egypt or elsewere, are higher if someone goes there. Nothing will change if you keep on complaining from your safe american home.
>>
if you expect a bunch of Wikimedians to change the government, then you
are putting them at risk of being arrested and or killed in this
co7untry. Especially the homosexuals. It is not our job to change the
world and we are not activists of a government. If they don't want gay
people there then plain and simple: We are not welcome there.
>>> Wikimania is not a conference to use for political objectives. We are
>>> not politicians or lawmakers. If you want to influence people who wish
>>> NOT to be influenced, do it on your own time.
>>>
>> Sorry to contraddict you but Wikimania *IS* political. All the things we are doing here are political. Stop looking at Wikimania as if it is just a cool party!
>>
>>
No its not. It has nothing to do with politics. And if it is then
Wikimania needs to be completely revamped. We are not crusaders or
"freedom fighters". If you want to be political, then run for your
government. this is a conference not an election.
>>> Its not "personal safety"
>>> of just homosexuals, but EVERYONE.
>>>
>> Personal safety of EVERYONE is at risk in Alexandria or in NYC, if you are a mindless traveller.
>> As an example, an eterosexual staring too intensively at the ass of someone else girlfriend can get into trouble everywhere in the world.
>>
>> Roberto (Snowdog)
>>
>>
Last I heard, the last terror attack in the US was 2001. Now how many
have there been in Egypt or in close proximity to it? Read the links in
all the mails that have been going around here.
Jason Safoutin
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 03:34:06 -0700
>> From: Delirium <delirium(a)hackish.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria,
>> Egypt
>> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
>> <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
>> Message-ID: <47109F1E.2070107(a)hackish.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Jason Safoutin wrote:
>>
>>> foundation-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> David, thanks for opening this discussion; it's an important and necessary one.
>>>>
>>>> I was not on the Wikimania jury, but I endorse its decision.
>>>>
>>>> To me, WMF is first and foremost about spreading knowledge, across
>>>> boundaries of language & culture. This means we should not isolate
>>>> countries that violate human rights through reactionary policies. We
>>>> need to engage them on a higher level, and confront them with the open
>>>> & diverse culture of sharing that we are building.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> They are not willing to build a diverse culture which included
>>> homosexuals. So far I see nothing open and diverse about their
>>> government or the way they treat homosexuals and women. If they wanted
>>> us there, then they would welcome us and they do not welcome
>>> homosexuals. Its not about policy. Its about whether or not a group is
>>> being singled out.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The "open and diverse culture" being discussed is *ours*, not that of a
>> particular government. We'd like to include as many people and
>> viewpoints as possible, and all locations have tradeoffs when it comes
>> to that. Arabs are, worldwide, a large ethnic/cultural/linguistic group,
>> but so far pretty underrepresented at our own international gatherings
>> --- boycotting all Arab countries as conference locations would not be a
>> very good way of solving that particular diversity problem! Reasonable
>> people disagree over how exactly to weigh all the factors that go into
>> choosing a location, including all the pros/cons of the sort of
>> participant diversity that a particular location would or wouldn't
>> promote. Having it in Alexandria promotes some sorts of diversity and
>> hurts other sorts. I've personally been pushing for cost-accessibility
>> of locations to enable wider grassroots participation, but that's
>> obviously not the only important factor either.
>>
>> -Mark
>>
>>
I never said anything about boycotting anything let alone any Arab
country. The important factor needs to be who the Wikimedians are and
then support all of them. Not a select group. Last I checked, we are as
equal as anyone on any WMF project. And that needs to be taken into
consideration...not ignored. Also...Homosexuals might even be a bigger
diverse group than Arabic people. Cannot single any one group out. Period.
Grassroots? Again...take the political agenda somewhere else. Wikimania
is not a political party or an election. If it is...then there is a
massive problem.
Jason Safoutin
foundation-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
> David, thanks for opening this discussion; it's an important and necessary one.
>
> I was not on the Wikimania jury, but I endorse its decision.
>
> To me, WMF is first and foremost about spreading knowledge, across
> boundaries of language & culture. This means we should not isolate
> countries that violate human rights through reactionary policies. We
> need to engage them on a higher level, and confront them with the open
> & diverse culture of sharing that we are building.
>
They are not willing to build a diverse culture which included
homosexuals. So far I see nothing open and diverse about their
government or the way they treat homosexuals and women. If they wanted
us there, then they would welcome us and they do not welcome
homosexuals. Its not about policy. Its about whether or not a group is
being singled out.
> I understand that this means that many LGBT people may not wish to
> attend Wikimania 2008 for reasons of personal safety or principles. I
> hope some of them will change their mind, as we need courageous voices
> to influence those who can be influenced.
>
Wikimania is not a conference to use for political objectives. We are
not politicians or lawmakers. If you want to influence people who wish
NOT to be influenced, do it on your own time. Its not "personal safety"
of just homosexuals, but EVERYONE. This is a conference, not an election.
> I have always been supportive of Wikimedia taking an official stance
> against censorship in particular. Knowledge cannot flow across
> boundaries where there are gatekeepers who wish to control it. It is
> my belief that education, including education about different
> lifestyles, is absolutely critical for social progress anywhere,
> including Egypt. This is what Wikimedia, as an international charity,
> is all about.
>
Charity is for those who want it and who welcome it. We are not one to
make their censorship decisions. Again, take the political motive
somewhere else. We can educate and teach others about their culture
without putting individuals in harms way. And we don't donate
anything...they donate to us.
> If we truly are the "Red Cross of Knowledge", as Jimmy once called it,
> then we need to be everywhere, and primarily challenge policies when
> they stop us from doing what we do: giving people free access to
> education. This, not simply globe-hopping, is my motivation to support
> this location, the first Wikimania in Africa.
>
Again. We cannot force our knowledge on a culture that is protective of
their own. They don't have free speech so your continuing claims of
policies has nothing to do with us. They change their policies and
beliefs and culture. Not us. If the "gatekeepers" want to control
it,then that's their right, its their country and we have no right to
force anything upon them. And I as well as from what I read, other
homosexuals are not willing to risk their life to do that. If you want
to talk about non-censorship and what not, then talk about how this
decision effects a crowd of Wikimedia's most diverse.
Jason Safoutin
Jason Safoutin ha scritto:
> They are not willing to build a diverse culture which included
> homosexuals.
Tell it to egyptrian LGBT community. The chances that things change, in Egypt or elsewere, are higher if someone goes there. Nothing will change if you keep on complaining from your safe american home.
> Wikimania is not a conference to use for political objectives. We are
> not politicians or lawmakers. If you want to influence people who wish
> NOT to be influenced, do it on your own time.
Sorry to contraddict you but Wikimania *IS* political. All the things we are doing here are political. Stop looking at Wikimania as if it is just a cool party!
> Its not "personal safety"
> of just homosexuals, but EVERYONE.
Personal safety of EVERYONE is at risk in Alexandria or in NYC, if you are a mindless traveller.
As an example, an eterosexual staring too intensively at the ass of someone else girlfriend can get into trouble everywhere in the world.
Roberto (Snowdog)
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Cary Bass wrote:
> The Jury for Wikimania 2008 bids have met and are pleased to announce
> that Wikimania 2008 will be held in Alexandria, Egypt.
I'm offended that the desire to have Wikimania hop around the globe
(rotation) trumps the egregious history Egypt has with LGBT and other
civil rights (local laws). While visitors to Egypt are certainly not at
the same risk, I refuse to spend any money in a country that -- as
recently as 2004 -- sentenced someone to 17 years of prison and two
years of hard labor for posting a personal ad on a gay website[1]. A
blogger was imprisoned in 2007 for four years for "insulting Islam and
defaming the President of Egypt."[2] Jimmy Wales even attended the
Amnesty conference denouncing the censorship. No legal or cultural
reforms since give me confidence that the situation has improved.
Wikimedia and its projects have an abundance of people from marginalized
groups and political advocacy organizations participating at every
level. A place that persecutes, censors, and prosecutes such groups
under the banner of snuffing out "Satanism" is not a location that
affirms the pluralism and intellectual freedom of Wikimedia.
People raised these objections early in the bidding process, but I have
yet to see a response that extends beyond the immediate safety of
conference attendees. (And even those responses failed to address the
danger for transgender and transsexual community members.) Even if we
don't risk anything ourselves, we should care about more than our own
safety: where we hold a conference shows what we consider acceptable.
The "points" system that arrived at this decision strikes me as shallow
and inhuman, a failed attempt at giving the process a veneer of
objectivity. With arbitrary categories of equal weight, why should
anyone expect it to yield a good result? Even then, all the public sees
is a bunch of numbers without justifications or accountability. When I
buy a car, I don't create the categories "exterior color," "interior
color," "CD player," and "starts up" with equal weight, yet "social
areas" weighed equally with "local laws" in the bidding process. How
useful are these "social areas" to the parts of our community whose
social activities, even appearance, include aspects that would be
dangerous in public Egyptian life? How many "points" is their freedom worth?
Alexandria was once distinguished as being the site of the Great
Library, but the Egypt of today has more in common with the society that
burned the library than the one that built it. Don't expect to find me
at Wikimania 2008 Alexandria.
Sincerely,
David Strauss
[1] http://www.gaymiddleeast.com/country/egypt
[2] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6724531.stm
I have a question that in the myriad of emails I've read so far I'm not sure I've seen an answer. Were the questions about Egypt's perceived or real lack of tolerance brought up during the public meeting and jury process?
If they were, and the jury chose Alexandria anyway, then you just have to move on and decide whether or not you're going to go based on that decision.
If they weren't, then you should make sure to bring it up for the 2009 selection process.
Either way, is there any point discussing it any further? The decision has been made. There doesn't seem to be anything coming from the jury or the WMF that they are even considering reopening the decision process.
Sue Anne
sreed1234(a)yahoo.com
Hello everyone,
Time to give you news of the activities of the Foundation.
The board and the staff of WMF were all in Florida in the past few days.
I was in the office on thursday and friday, largely to meet and talk
with Oleta, the bookkeeper, and to prepare the board meeting, which
occured during the week end.
Monday was a day dedicated board+staff. Tuesday and wenesday were staff
days.
First, for those who missed the story, the office will very soon move to
San Francisco. In the next few weeks, Sue will look for an office over
there, interview candidates for various positions and moving will start
soon after. At latest, the office in St Petersbourg will be closed end
of january. As you may guess, unfortunately, some staff members will not
follow us there (do not ask me to cite names, I am not sure everyone
100% made up their mind, nor that they wish the information to be
announced now). So, this meeting was also the last time we were meeting
with some staff members who will soon part from WMF. Over the past few
months, bonds were obviously created, so, there was of course a bit of
nostalgia.
On monday evening, the board plus staff interested went to visit the
colo (the servers will stay in Tampa, they will not move to SF). We took
many pictures, including the very neat area of servers bought since Rob
started working for us, the very messy area of the old servers (some old
ones from back to 2003) and the pile of main databases servers
(yeah, Wikipedia entirely hold in 40 cm height).
The colo visit was followed by a little good-bye party.
-----------
Now, report regarding work in itself :-)
The agenda of the board was pretty dense, so I will try not to go in too
much details. Part of the reporting is copied from the board minutes
made by Erik.
Present: Frieda, Kat, Erik, Jan-Bart, Anthere, Jimmy, Sue, Mike in some
discussions
Saturday started by an executive report from Sue, and a report from Mike
regarding our trademarks. There was some extensive discussion in
particular centered on the organizational chart and its likely future
evolution. Some positions will be opened very soon (either
new positions, or replacement of staff not moving to SF). I will not go
into details here, the announcement of job openings should come very
shortly, and you will be informed at that moment.
We moved on the approval of various policies.
One is actually already implemented since last december, at the last
fundraising. But whilst cleaning up records, I realised it was never
formally approved, so here it is.
http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Donor_Privacy_Policy&oldid…
A second policy regarding travels was also passed. The first was about
the conditions of reimbursement. This one deals with the check and
balances (any person travelling on behalf of the Foundation, should get
an approval from another person from the Foundation. This policy fix
these terms.
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Travel_Approval_Policy
A third policy, called "Code of Conduct" was passed. It clarifies the
obligations of the staff and board members in terms of behavior toward
their peers. Hmmm, this policy generated a LOT of discussion, in
particular because it tends to be SO american ;-)
However, we considered that past events made it absolutely mandatory to
clarify what was acceptable from what was NOT acceptable.
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct_Policy
Mona, our financial expert, started working on various financial
policies, but we agreed that those should be approved later on by the
audit committee. I expect several of those to be on the agenda of next
board meeting.
Afternoon was dedicated to
First, a 2 hours discussion with Larry Biddle (look up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry Biddle) on fundraising strategy.
Larry is helping us on our fall fundraiser, and it has revealed very
useful so far.
Second, a presentation from Erik, regarding communication architecture.
We agreed that the Board should focus on high level principles. That
development of a statement of principles on tool use & practices (e.g.
open source vs. proprietary tools) would be desirable. And that revision
of current practices was not a high operational priority.
We also took some time to officially create an ED committee (this is the
second board committee). The membership is Jan-Bart, Kat ? and Anthere.
The roles of this committee are all related to the Executive Director.
It may be 1) to find and hire an ED, 2) to provide an annual assesment
of the ED work, 3) to negotiate working conditions, 4) to fire him etc...
---------
Present: Frieda, Kat, Erik, Jan-Bart, Anthere, Sue in some discussions
First part of sunday morning was dedicated to board membership.
The length of term of appointed board member was discussed, but not
changed. It consequently stays one year.
(Appointed and elected members can be re-appointed or re-elected with no
limitations).
We also decided that board stability was one of our prior concern.
Frieda joined recently and is still quite a bit in the learning mode,
and a member will be replaced. Each time board membership is changed, we
need to adjust to the new person, which is rather energy draining. None
of us would consequently consider a board expansion at this stage.
Decision on election 2008 was also postponed to next Board meeting.
Jimbo and Jan-Bart were both reappointed for a one year term.
Michael was not reappointed. His term will end 1st of december.
We held officers elections. Hmmm, we actually dealt the cards, and
picked up the same than last year. So, I stay chair, Erik is still our
executive secretary and Jan-Bart our vice-chair.
At this point, some should wonder "hmmm, and what about the treasurer ?"
Yeah, what about the treasurer... well, the treasurer term ends up 1st
of november, at which date, we'll be out of treasurer.
Mona and I worked in the past few weeks on a "job description" document
to find a new treasurer. To be fair, given the state of the organization
now, much bigger than a year ago, and expected to grow even more, we
really need an expert on financial matters. We have reached a stage when
we just can not simply nominate one of us treasurer. We need someone to
truely provide financial high level oversight.
So, what we did was to draft this job description and qualification
requirements. What is intended is to polish it in the next few days,
then post it publicly, here, on the website, and also on other charity
venues.
However, this quest could not be handled uniquely by Mona and I. So, to
organize this quest, we created a Treasurer Search workgroup. Current
membership is Kat, Erik and I. Erik is the chair of that group.
More to come on the treasurer search soon.
We also discussed (but not yet officially approved) the principle of
imposing a delay of 6 months before a staff member can be a candidate
for board election, as well as 6 months before a board member can fill
up a staff position.
There was also a brief discussion about the advisory board, and
essentially it boils down to "larger discussion at next board meeting".
We then had a two hours discussion with Ruth-Ellen, a consultant, prior
spoke-person at the CBC. Topic of the discussion: Media Training 101
(aka, how to deal with the very nasty or very intrusive questions of our
friends the journalists).
This presentation was made to all board members on sunday. Then to the
staff on monday. During monday, Ruth-Ellen also had individual sessions
with board members.
This was actually the first time we ever included in the agenda, a
session meant to "educate" us. I think it was really worth it.
The afternoon was two folds. The first part was about budget. The second
was related to chapters.
Hmmm, budget.
The budget was built by Mona, based on a feedback of all staff members,
plus I for the board. It was not easy...
First because there was no budget last year, second because we are
growing so fast that our needs also grow very very fast.
Budget discussion occured with consultant Mona Venkateswaran, resulting
in approval of the FY 2007-2008 overall budget value.
This is the first properly planned budget in the history of the
Wikimedia Foundation. It is understood to be tentative and contain a
significant margin of error. Budget will be refined as data capture
improves.
We also asked that more granular capture of accounting categories was
needed, e.g. Wikimania.
We ended sunday with a large discussion. Sue Gardner began the
discussion by presenting a possible strategy to clarify the relationship
between WMF and Wikimedia Chapters. The strategy outlines 4 types of
relationships, essentially ranging from business development with
revenue sharing over traditional non-profit activities to informal
affilitations.
Far ranging discussion resulted, hmmm, with obvious agreement resulting.
We agreed in the end that the discussion stage was still too early for a
Board/Chapters Retreat to be likely to result in meaningful output.
Therefore, December Chapter Retreat is cancelled. We also agreed on the
need for a systematic process of gathering feedback from the chapters on
their expectations & perceived purpose should precede a strategy draft
from WMF about the relationship with chapters.
I hope this will feed your thoughts for a few days. Other emails will
follow to inform you further in the next few weeks. A more in-depth
discussion will also occur with the chapter members. Resolutions will be
posted when finalized.
See also
*http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Meetings
*http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolutions
*http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Policies
*http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Messages
Best
Florence
Chair Wikimedia Foundation
> The problem is that I see people pretending there's no problem at all
> with LGBT in Egypt. That all the LGBT people that are complaining are
> crazy, paranoid, or just lying. This is not acceptable. *There are*
> problems in Egypt regarding the LGBT community: this is a fact.
Yes, there are problems, and this problems in great part fall on the local LGBT community. But as Gatto Nero said in a previous post, "Homosexuals are not such sex-maniac-decerebrate" so I'm quite confident LGB people can spend a week in Egypt without being identified as such.
Roberto (Snowdog)
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Gatto, I'm not replying directly to you. I'm just asking quetions.
So being L or G or B or T is not the only problem. And Egypt is not the only problem.
You can be black or white, male or female, communist or fascist, islamic, jewish or catholic.
Depending on who and on where you are, you might find yourself in a situation that might be anywhere from harmless from harmfull.
So, no matter which place on Earth you choose someone will criticize that choice.
Now we have to understand what is the purpose of Wikimedia. If Wikimania is a huge party that anyone can attend, because WMF picks carefully its location making sure that human rights are respected, well we can just stop thinking about a Wikimania.
If Wikimania is an occasion to spread the concept of "free knowledge" all over the world, the story is completely different.
I believe that at this point, the purpose of Wikimania is something more than just a party, and since I won't leave any doubt about it, let me state clearly that WMF should go to certain places even if LGBT people (or whoever) are not allowed. I just don't care, like Wikipedia, Wikimania is not mandatory. Wait for 2009, maybe they will pick a place that is more tollerant.
Should Wikimania be held in the PRK? Yes!
Should Wikimania be held in the PRC? Yes!
In Myanmar? In Congo? In the USA? Yes! Yes! Yes!
The point is not that "all of us should be able to go to <fill with country of your choice>". The point is that "some of us have to go to <fill with country of your choice>".
And if some of us go to Egypt, and some go to Switzerland, Zimbabwe, Tonga or whatever, maybe one day we will be able to safely go everywhere, regardless of who we are. Instead of remaining at home complaining.
Roberto (Snowdog)
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