> Gatto Nero:
> We, even if we would like to go there, we can't.
>
After reading this incredible thread, I vould like to put a "citation needed" tag on the above sentence.
Please show proof that LGBT are arrested and expelled on arrival in Egypt. Or that their application for a visa are automatically discarded.
Roberto (Snowdog)
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> 2007/10/12, rfrangi(a)libero.it <rfrangi(a)libero.it>:
> > > Gatto Nero:
> > > We, even if we would like to go there, we can't.
> > >
> > After reading this incredible thread, I vould like to put a "citation needed" tag on the above sentence.
> >
> > Please show proof that LGBT are arrested and expelled on arrival in Egypt. Or that their application for a visa are automatically discarded.
>
> I'm at work. Rapid search on google gives me these:
> http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/02/egypt022003.htm
> http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/10/07/egypt6432.htm
> http://www.sodomylaws.org/world/egypt/egnews85.htm
> http://www.planetout.com/pno/news/article.html?date=2003/09/24/2
>
> In two minutes of search. I've not even read the full articles, for now.
> But what if I've searched enough time?
> You can say: "ehy, they were local". It doesn't seem so different, for me.
> It's not that different.
>
Horray! Some links in the end. I know it takes just two minutes, but the burden of proof is on you, not on me. Still those links you provided are no proof that entrance in Egypt is forbidden to LGBT people.
Now, since LGBT are not the only group that can be subject to discrimination, I suppose the problem is wider. So what do we expect? Do we want the WMF to choose for Wikimania a location where no one is discriminated? (That's to say the South Pole or the outer space)?
Or as a more optimistic goal do we want the WMF to keep Wikimedia in the free and tollerant western world, and leave those bedouins on their own?
Roberto (Snowdog)
P.S.: The last statement contains a large amount of irony. If you don't understand irony, please do not read the above sentence.
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> Gatto Nero:
> But I'm sorry to see what I've seen, in WMF.
>
I still have to see a statement on this subject from WMF (not to say a homophobic statement)
Roberto (Snowdog)
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Well there is one, really not to ligitimate gay Egyptian website:
<http://www.gayegypt.com>
But go to their press page: <http://www.gayegypt.com/quotations.html>
and look at the bottom quote: "Meet us in Germany - Meet us in Spain -
Meet us in America - Meet us in London - You have signed your own death
sentence"
/Al Qaeda/
Why this on a gay site that is supposed to be in Egypt. I don't know,
but that doesn't make me feel safe.
Jason Safoutin
-----Original Message-----
From: wikinews-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikinews-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Brian McNeil
Sent: 11 October 2007 11:41
To: 'Wikinews mailing list'
Subject: Re: [Wikinews-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen, in Alexandria, Egypt
I have cut all various discussions out of this in order to start an effort
to get people to move on from the 2008 decision and accept it.
If you are gay and you go to Egypt - either on holiday or to Wikimania - you
keep your sexuality private. In fact, for most countries in that area it
doesn't matter your sexual orientation; public displays of affection are
frowned upon. If you can't live with that then Egypt isn't a destination for
you. For all of us there is somewhere in the world we'd not go. Many
Europeans would prefer not to visit the United States, not because they
would be at risk (perhaps in the wrong part of L.A.) but because they do not
wish to support the county's economy with tourism euros due to some of its
policies.
I intend to rely on rotation bringing a future Wikimania to somewhere I can
afford to get to. With some of the things recently said on this list I'd
love to be in Alexandria doing a talk on Wikinews and trying to grab
people's interest in the project. I've been encouraged to attend the
Amsterdam get together but I don't think I've time to prep a presentation
for that.
So, what I'd like to see on this of-late-hyperactive list is acceptance of
the 2008 decision and the concerns that have been raised addressed in the
2009 selection process. People, if you're unhappy with Alexandria list the
jury criteria and what aspects you believe were not taken into account. Or
argue your case for "Human Rights record" to be added to the criteria. But
if you do so keep it clear that it is for future bids, please accept the
current 2008 decision and avoid creating drama.
Brian.
foundation-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
> George Herbert wrote:
>
>> If you believe Egypt truly is significantly bad for visiting LGBT
>> tourists, there should be ample evidence thereof available. In spite
>> of my friends' and aquaintences personal ancedotal safe trips, I went
>> looking for some evidence of risk when this thread started. I have
>> not found anything of the sort. There's more documented foreign
>> tourist gay bashing in San Francisco (fairly low actual rate, and
>> abhored by the local population as a whole, but there's a persistent
>> low-rate problem from homophobic fringeists) than I can find for
>> Egypt.
>>
>
> If you use official records, there's zero gay bashing in Iran. I
> wouldn't consider Egypt's records on GLBT issues accurate, either.
>
> That's the quandary with record-keeping. The places with the most
> problems often have the worst records. Never mistake bad record keeping
> with the absence of a problem.
>
>
There is plenty of proof and evidence. Here is an example
<http://www.gaymiddleeast.com/country/egypt>
I guess some press releases went out - the San Francisco Chronicle is
running the story on the top of its electronic edition right now (
http://www.sfgate.com )
Story: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/10/BU69SNMQ2.DTL&t…
(the first version of the article misidentified Anthere as male for
some reason, but the writer responded within minutes to an email and
fixed the story promptly).
--
-george william herbert
george.herbert(a)gmail.com
I sent my primary message to wikien-l but I think the issue is important
enough to warrant general awareness from the Foundation.
I have recently compiled a new statistical analysis of the English Wikipedia
independent of the "official" stats that have been offline for the last
year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dragons_flight/Log_analysis
The surprising conclusion is that the rate of article editting on the
English Wikipedia has actually been declining during the last 6 months.
-Robert Rohde
aka Dragons_flight
(resend to the foundation list, plus a postscript)
On 10/9/07, David Strauss <david(a)fourkitchens.com> wrote:
> > Cary Bass wrote:
> > > The Jury for Wikimania 2008 bids have met and are pleased to announce
> > > that Wikimania 2008 will be held in Alexandria, Egypt.
> >
> > I'm offended that the desire to have Wikimania hop around the globe
> > (rotation) trumps the egregious history Egypt has with LGBT and other
> > civil rights (local laws). While visitors to Egypt are certainly not at
> > the same risk, I refuse to spend any money in a country that -- as
> > recently as 2004 -- sentenced someone to 17 years of prison and two
> > years of hard labor for posting a personal ad on a gay website[1]. A
> > blogger was imprisoned in 2007 for four years for "insulting Islam and
> > defaming the President of Egypt."[2] Jimmy Wales even attended the
> > Amnesty conference denouncing the censorship. No legal or cultural
> > reforms since give me confidence that the situation has improved.
> >
> > Wikimedia and its projects have an abundance of people from marginalized
> > groups and political advocacy organizations participating at every
> > level. A place that persecutes, censors, and prosecutes such groups
> > under the banner of snuffing out "Satanism" is not a location that
> > affirms the pluralism and intellectual freedom of Wikimedia.
> >
> > People raised these objections early in the bidding process, but I have
>
> As a jury member, I do not remember any comments from you on this
> subject, David; perhaps I missed them. At any rate, what are you
> trying to accomplish by sending this message after the winner was
> announced, and not before when we were discussing the bids?
>
> Wikimania and Wikimedia are both global in scope, which means that
> while we can condemn censorship and loss of human rights everywhere we
> must also take into account a global range of values. Our projects
> focus specifically on free knowledge, and I expect that will be
> highlighted at the conference.
>
> -- phoebe
p.s. as a postscript to this message which I also sent to wikimania-l, I'd
like to point out that this is not a closed process, and if anyone feels as
strongly about the criteria as David does, a message to the 2009 jury would
be appreciated. We the jurors did our best good-faith effort to incorporate
community concerns and use our own best judgment about this often
contentious process; but we cannot fully represent the community without
community feedback. We got little to no response to our calls for feedback
on the criteria. Such sweeping statements as David makes are certainly best
backed up with a little effort to provide data while decisions are being
made.