on 10/12/07 2:44 PM, Anthony at wikimail(a)inbox.org wrote: It was not a misquote, Anthony; I took your words exactly as you wrote them. And that is what I quoted, and I questioned. Absolutely! "I don't think you can choose" is not the same as "unlikely". Apples and oranges here, Anthony. Beliefs are a result of learning; what is learned can just as readily be unlearned. If you are taught as a child that you are "useless", this will be a major part of your self-concepts, your "beliefs", about yourself until you are taught or self-discover otherwise. This is one of the fundamentals of individual psychology. Marc -- Just be.

on 10/12/07 5:29 PM, Thomas Dalton at thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com wrote: Thomas, "Conclusions", "experience" & "knowledge": all things which involve "learning". Marc

And your point is?

On 13/10/2007, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86(a)comcast.net> wrote: Yes, I can read what you said. What is your *point*? How is the fact that conclusions are based on learning significant?

I disagree with the statement that you can choose your religion.

As I've said, it's a conclusion. I choose what to have for breakfast, I don't choose what is and isn't true.

Ah, now we're into a slightly semantic point. Is a Christian a person that is part of Christian culture, or is a Christian a person that believes Jesus Christ was the son of God? If the former, then yes, it's a choice, if the latter, then it isn't. Either you believe it, or you don't, it's not a choice, it's a conclusion. I don't choose that 2+2=4, I conclude it from my understanding of arithmetic. Someone could come along and explain arithmetic in a different way to me, or I could sit down and think about it for a while, and come to the conclusion that 2+2 actually equals 5, but that isn't a choice. Claudio said he "came to accept" that he was homosexual. I think religion is much the same - either you accept a certain belief system, or you don't, it's not a choice. Homosexuality could be considered a belief - the belief that members of your sex are more sexually attractive than members of the opposite sex (NB: I'm not saying homosexuality is a religion - not all beliefs are part of a religion). That belief could change (by meeting an individual of the opposite sex that you find particularly attractive, perhaps), but you can't change it by concious choice.

I didn't say you can't change your religion. I said you can't *choose* to change your religion.

Same way any change in your view of the world takes place. Either you gain more information which changes your conclusion, or you realise something new about the information you already have.

On 10/13/07, Ray Saintonge <saintonge(a)telus.net> wrote: True, but I did not say non-Christians can't become fundamentalist Christians.

On 10/13/07, Mathias Schindler <mathias.schindler(a)gmail.com> wrote: I'm not sure. Where is the definition of what is relevant to this mailing list? I could, but I'd prefer not to. Let's get a ruling from someone in charge, or take a poll, or something.

Michael Bimmler wrote: You are in charge Michael, as the moderator. I would certainly agree that we seem to be off-topic. Ant