Re: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

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Sue Reed

12 Oct 2007 12 Oct '07

8:07 a.m.

I have a question that in the myriad of emails I've read so far I'm not sure I've seen an answer. Were the questions about Egypt's perceived or real lack of tolerance brought up during the public meeting and jury process? If they were, and the jury chose Alexandria anyway, then you just have to move on and decide whether or not you're going to go based on that decision. If they weren't, then you should make sure to bring it up for the 2009 selection process. Either way, is there any point discussing it any further? The decision has been made. There doesn't seem to be anything coming from the jury or the WMF that they are even considering reopening the decision process. Sue Anne sreed1234(a)yahoo.com

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Gatto Nero

12 Oct 12 Oct

8:20 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

2007/10/12, Sue Reed <sreed1234(a)yahoo.com>om>:

...

Either way, is there any point discussing it any further?

Personally - and I underline "personally" - the problem is not the choose of Alexandria as the venue of Wikimania. The problem is what I read here in response of GLBT community's complaining. Some phrases are just a bit homophobic. Things like: * Don't be too gay and you'll be safe * Don't be gay and you'll be safe * Don't take a double room * Ask a doctor to certificate you're ill * Don't flaunt your homosexuality * How many who you are? (implied: "You're too few to care about") are really gross, and if WMF really thinks things like this, we have a huge problem. Very huge.

Gatto Nero

8:23 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

Ah, I forgot. Even implying that some people are complaining 'cause their interest is to have sex with local gays is offensive. Homosexuals are not such sex-maniac-decerebrate.

Thomas Dalton

1:55 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

On 12/10/2007, Gatto Nero <gattonero(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Ah, I forgot. Even implying that some people are complaining 'cause their interest is to have sex with local gays is offensive. Homosexuals are not such sex-maniac-decerebrate.

Have you heard of the phrase "straw man"?

Gatto Nero

1:59 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

2007/10/12, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

On 12/10/2007, Gatto Nero <gattonero(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Ah, I forgot. Even implying that some people are complaining 'cause their interest is to have sex with local gays is offensive. Homosexuals are not such sex-maniac-decerebrate.

Have you heard of the phrase "straw man"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man I can read. But I can say that we've seen a "straw man" even when I've seen people responding to concern of LGBT people with "As long as you don't make sex..."

Thomas Dalton

2:09 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

On 12/10/2007, Gatto Nero <gattonero(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

2007/10/12, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>om>:

On 12/10/2007, Gatto Nero <gattonero(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Ah, I forgot. Even implying that some people are complaining 'cause their interest is to have sex with local gays is offensive. Homosexuals are not such sex-maniac-decerebrate.

Have you heard of the phrase "straw man"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man I can read. But I can say that we've seen a "straw man" even when I've seen people responding to concern of LGBT people with "As long as you don't make sex..."

No-one except you has said or implied that homosexuals are "sex-maniac-decerebrates". Advising somebody not to do something does not imply that you think they had any intention to, it's simply advice.

Oldak Quill

3:32 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

On 12/10/2007, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 12/10/2007, Gatto Nero <gattonero(a)gmail.com> wrote:

2007/10/12, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>om>:

On 12/10/2007, Gatto Nero <gattonero(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Ah, I forgot. Even implying that some people are complaining 'cause their interest is to have sex with local gays is offensive. Homosexuals are not such sex-maniac-decerebrate.

Have you heard of the phrase "straw man"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man I can read. But I can say that we've seen a "straw man" even when I've seen people responding to concern of LGBT people with "As long as you don't make sex..."

GLBT Wikimedians should not have to be given this advice when attending Wikimania. -- Oldak Quill (oldakquill(a)gmail.com)

Thomas Dalton

3:48 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

...

GLBT Wikimedians should not have to be given this advice when attending Wikimania.

It would be nice if it wasn't necessary, I agree. So does everyone here, as far as I know. That doesn't make it a sufficient reason not to hold Wikimania there, since there are similar problems with pretty much every country.

Ray Saintonge

10:10 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

Thomas Dalton wrote:

...

GLBT Wikimedians should not have to be given this advice when attending Wikimania.

The most important advice that you can give to anyone travelling in an unfamiliar culture is to apply common sense to their behaviour. Street-smarts are about common sense. The way some Wikipedians apply common sense is worrisome. Ec

GerardM

9:12 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

Hoi, ALL wikimedians have to consider that "when in Rome do as the Romans do". It has little to do with sexual or whatever orientation; you have to adapt.\ Now for some risk analysis; you go to the Wikimania site, you arrive by plain, take public transport, check in to the accommodations and you are with people that are Wikimedians all the time. You go to presentations with them, have something to eat with them, you are never alone. you are all the time with Wikimedians.. truly these are people that just acquired a face, you know them because of there being a @ in their name. Within a week you are away... Consequently you have hardly time to go outside of this bubble of Wiki-dom, you hardly meet the locals and you meet them always with others. The risc is minute, this is based on how I have experienced three wikimanias. Thanks, GerardM On 10/12/07, Oldak Quill <oldakquill(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 12/10/2007, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On 12/10/2007, Gatto Nero <gattonero(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 2007/10/12, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>om>: > > On 12/10/2007, Gatto Nero <gattonero(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > Ah, I forgot. Even implying that some people are complaining

'cause

> their interest is to have sex with local gays is offensive. > Homosexuals are not such sex-maniac-decerebrate. Have you heard of the phrase "straw man"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man I can read. But I can say that we've seen a "straw man" even when I've seen people responding to concern of LGBT people with "As long as you don't make sex..."

GLBT Wikimedians should not have to be given this advice when attending Wikimania. -- Oldak Quill (oldakquill(a)gmail.com) _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Gatto Nero

3:39 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

...

Don't kill people. Don't eat strawberries. Don't throw object out of the windows. Oh, they are advices out of context, it seems. So, please, come on: no one give "advices" about something they don't think. These are useless advices. Every advice comes from a specific problem. So, if you're advicing "not to have sex with a local", then...

Thomas Dalton

3:47 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

...

Oh, they are advices out of context, it seems. So, please, come on: no one give "advices" about something they don't think. These are useless advices. Every advice comes from a specific problem. So, if you're advicing "not to have sex with a local", then...

...then you think it is *possible* that someone would consider it, not necessarily *likely*. Is anyone claiming that no Wikipedian would ever consider sleeping with a local during Wikimania?

Brian McNeil

8:49 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen inAlexandria, Egypt

Gatto Nero wrote:

...

2007/10/12, Sue Reed <sreed1234(a)yahoo.com>om>:

...

Either way, is there any point discussing it any further?

The actual way I've interpreted most comments (and I emphasise most, not all) of this nature has been "don't overtly display your sexuality". This applied to gay, bi, *and* heterosexuals.

...

* Don't take a double room

I don't know if it is as bad as that. Is it a case of the hotel staff will look at you funny, or would it be worse than that?

...

* Ask a doctor to certificate you're ill

I have to agree this is ridiculous. A person's sexuality is not an illness.

...

* Don't flaunt your homosexuality

This goes with what I said above; anywhere in the Middle East you don't openly flaunt any flavour of sexuality.

...

* How many who you are? (implied: "You're too few to care about") are really gross, and if WMF really thinks things like this, we have a huge problem. Very huge.

I don't care how many LGBT Wikimedians there are. Pigeonholing ourselves into special interest groups with an axe to grind is counter-productive. We're all Wikimedians. So the 2008 Wikimania caught some flak, and the jury is in hiding from an angry mob of homosexuals with torches and pitchforks. :-P Move on, factor the concerns into the 2009 process. Do we have a list of candidates for that yet? It would be far more productive to move on to critiquing the 2009 candidates than bemoaning an issue with the 2008 choice. Brian.

Gatto Nero

9:02 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen inAlexandria, Egypt

2007/10/12, Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil(a)wikinewsie.org>rg>:

...

Gatto Nero wrote:

...

The actual way I've interpreted most comments (and I emphasise most, not all) of this nature has been "don't overtly display your sexuality". This applied to gay, bi, *and* heterosexuals.

Oh, come on: don't try to equiparate "being overtly heterosexual" with "being overtly homosexual". It's totally different, from a cultural point of view. Being heterosexual has been the normality for a loooong time, and it's very hard to be "overtly heterosexuals". It's not the same, and we should understand this. *Being overtly heterosexuals: fucking in the street *Being overtly homosexuals: speaking with a squeaky voice, holding another man's hand, sharing a double room... They're not parallels. It's minimizing.

...

* Don't take a double room

I don't know if it is as bad as that. Is it a case of the hotel staff will look at you funny, or would it be worse than that?

No idea, but the idea of not being _allowed_ to ask for a double, if I want to, it's absurd. I can decide not to take a double, but I don't have to be obliged to.

...

* Don't flaunt your homosexuality

This goes with what I said above; anywhere in the Middle East you don't openly flaunt any flavour of sexuality.

Read my answer above.

...

I don't care how many LGBT Wikimedians there are. Pigeonholing ourselves into special interest groups with an axe to grind is counter-productive. We're all Wikimedians.

Exactly, and we have to take care of all.

...

So the 2008 Wikimania caught some flak, and the jury is in hiding from an angry mob of homosexuals with torches and pitchforks. :-P Move on, factor the concerns into the 2009 process. Do we have a list of candidates for that yet? It would be far more productive to move on to critiquing the 2009 candidates than bemoaning an issue with the 2008 choice.

GerardM

9:25 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen inAlexandria, Egypt

Hoi, The way I understand it, you should not openly kiss in public. <period> never mind the sexual orientation. What is accepted of heterosexuals in the Western World is not necessarily accepted elsewhere. At best this issue is one issue. It is not a deciding issue, it is an issue that can and should be weighed with others. Thanks, GerardM On 10/12/07, Gatto Nero <gattonero(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

2007/10/12, Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil(a)wikinewsie.org>rg>:

Gatto Nero wrote:

The actual way I've interpreted most comments (and I emphasise most, not all) of this nature has been "don't overtly display your sexuality".

This

applied to gay, bi, *and* heterosexuals.

* Don't take a double room

I don't know if it is as bad as that. Is it a case of the hotel staff

will

look at you funny, or would it be worse than that?

No idea, but the idea of not being _allowed_ to ask for a double, if I want to, it's absurd. I can decide not to take a double, but I don't have to be obliged to.

* Don't flaunt your homosexuality

This goes with what I said above; anywhere in the Middle East you don't openly flaunt any flavour of sexuality.

Read my answer above.

I don't care how many LGBT Wikimedians there are. Pigeonholing ourselves into special interest groups with an axe to grind is counter-productive. We're all Wikimedians.

Exactly, and we have to take care of all.

So the 2008 Wikimania caught some flak, and the jury is in hiding from

angry mob of homosexuals with torches and pitchforks. :-P Move on,

factor

the concerns into the 2009 process. Do we have a list of candidates for

that

yet? It would be far more productive to move on to critiquing the 2009 candidates than bemoaning an issue with the 2008 choice.

On 2007, one of the question made to all the participants was "Are there problems with the GLBT community, in your country?". So they knew it. The problem is the jury understimated the problem, _this year_. I hope for the next year, but we're worsening. _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Gatto Nero

9:37 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen inAlexandria, Egypt

2007/10/12, GerardM <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

Hoi, The way I understand it, you should not openly kiss in public. <period> never mind the sexual orientation.

I think it may be found discriminatory, but I'm starting to think that an heterosexual cannot understand the social implications of being homosexual. It's something quite noone can understand without living it on his own skin. Please, believe me when I say the problem is not only "kissing in public". It means acting in some way, too. It means looking in some way, dressing in some way. It means a lot of things that I cannot even describe, and you cannot choose not to be or do.

Ilario Valdelli

1:26 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen inAlexandria, Egypt

The solution could be: 1.go in Alexandria for the Wikimedia 2008 2.kiss all in public heterosexual with heterosexual, homosexual with homosexual 3.have the VISA keeped 4.open an international accident 5.don't return to home otherwise mama could ask some explications for your coming out Gooooooooooood :) Ilario On 10/12/07, Gatto Nero <gattonero(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

2007/10/12, GerardM <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>om>:

Hoi, The way I understand it, you should not openly kiss in public. <period> never mind the sexual orientation.

Yann Forget

10 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

Gatto Nero a écrit : ...

...

*Being overtly homosexuals: speaking with a squeaky voice, holding another man's hand, sharing a double room...

... FYI, in some coutries (India, Pakistan), a man holding another man's hand in public does not mean they are homosexual. I don't know about Egypt through. Regards, Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclopédie libre http://fr.wikisource.org/ | Bibliothèque libre http://wikilivres.info | Documents libres

geni

11:40 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen inAlexandria, Egypt

On 12/10/2007, Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil(a)wikinewsie.org> wrote:

...

* Ask a doctor to certificate you're ill

I have to agree this is ridiculous. A person's sexuality is not an illness.

This was in reference to transsexuals. The NHS views it as an illness. Fell free to try and persuade them otherwise as it would allow money to be free up for use in other areas. UK transsexuals might not be too unhappy mind. -- geni

Florence Devouard

4:47 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

Gatto Nero wrote:

...

2007/10/12, Sue Reed <sreed1234(a)yahoo.com>om>:

Either way, is there any point discussing it any further?

<random thought> When I was young, most references to gay people led to a city name, which was - apparently - a major location point for gay people to live in (and have fun, this was pre-AIDS time). AIDS crisis started when I was a pre-teen, and I remember this city being named over and over because of all the poor guys who got hit by it. I am pretty sure that city I am thinking of was San Francisco actually. </random thought>

Claudio Mastroianni

5:01 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

Il giorno 12/ott/07, alle ore 18:47, Florence Devouard ha scritto:

...

That's a so sad chapter of LGBT history, related to the illusion that "being gay" means "being ruthless and with a permissive morale". We could open a long interesting discussion about this. But first of all, I would like to adress another problem: we are not - or personally, *I* am not - making a comparison beteween USA and Egypt. This is not a "USA vs. Egypt war", for me. Personally, I have no problem with the choose of Alexandria as venue for Wikimania08. All the bidders were the same for me. There's no problem if the jury or the WMF or whatever say "We choose Alexandria, we know there were problems with LGBT and we didin't care about it", or "We choose Alexandra, but we didn't know about the problems with LGBT. We're sorry, but for this year, this is the choose. Next year we'll be more caring". The problem is that I see people pretending there's no problem at all with LGBT in Egypt. That all the LGBT people that are complaining are crazy, paranoid, or just lying. This is not acceptable. *There are* problems in Egypt regarding the LGBT community: this is a fact.

Thomas Dalton

5:07 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

...

The problem is that I see people pretending there's no problem at all with LGBT in Egypt. That all the LGBT people that are complaining are crazy, paranoid, or just lying. This is not acceptable. *There are* problems in Egypt regarding the LGBT community: this is a fact.

The *local* LGBT community, yes. No-one is denying that, as far as I can see.

Dan Rosenthal

5:10 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

I didn't know San Francisco as a gay cultural mecca was that well known outside the US. -Dan On Oct 12, 2007, at 12:47 PM, Florence Devouard wrote:

...

Ray Saintonge

10:53 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

San Francisco has long had the reputation of being the most gay community in the United States. Gay Mecca? I think it would be tougher there than in Alexandria. :-) Ec Dan Rosenthal wrote:

...

I didn't know San Francisco as a gay cultural mecca was that well known outside the US. -Dan On Oct 12, 2007, at 12:47 PM, Florence Devouard wrote: > <random thought> > When I was young, most references to gay people led to a city name, > which was - apparently - a major location point for gay people to live > in (and have fun, this was pre-AIDS time). > AIDS crisis started when I was a pre-teen, and I remember this city > being named over and over because of all the poor guys who got hit > by it. > I am pretty sure that city I am thinking of was San Francisco > actually. > </random thought>

phoebe ayers

8:25 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

Hi Sue, On 10/12/07, Sue Reed <sreed1234(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

...

Thanks for your question. They were brought up; you can read questions from the public meeting here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2008/Bids/Alexandria/Q&A and the bid talk page was open for general discussion throughout the entire bidding process: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimania_2008/Bids/Alexandria Please note that we invited public comment on the judging criteria several times as well on this and the wikimania list. Personally, considering all of the things that one could choose to discuss about the various bids (and that the jury did discuss) I find it fascinating that this single issue is getting all of the controversy. Based on past experiences, I would have expected folks to be upset about all sorts of different things :) Aside from these threads on the mailing list, however, I have heard a lot of congratulations and support, and I know the Alexandria team is very appreciative of the support that has been shown to them so far. -- phoebe

Wily D

1:58 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt

On 10/12/07, Sue Reed <sreed1234(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

...

As far as I can tell, not really. There's really little to no chance the jury will reconsider the outcome. The safety of gays, lesbiens, transsexuals et al. is not a priority of wikimania this year. Whether that can be made a priority of the jury next year, I don't know, but that's where the efforts of those who care about the ability of GLBT community to attend might focus their efforts. Or on more local events, which are those of us who're poor might be able to attend where Egypt is impossible for us. Should it be a priority of the jury? Depends on whether it's a priority of the community. I would hope the jury next year will give two shits about GLBTs, but if only a tiny minority of Wikipedians, Wikimedians et al. share that opinion, then they probably won't. Incidentally, we should probably stop responding to posters who keep disingeniously suggesting that Egypt is completely safe, or that as both Alexandria and Atlanta (and Cape Town) have nonzero risks that this somehow makes them equivilent. Cheers WilyD

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participants (15)

Brian McNeil
Claudio Mastroianni
Dan Rosenthal
Florence Devouard
Gatto Nero
geni
GerardM
Ilario Valdelli
Oldak Quill
phoebe ayers
Ray Saintonge
Sue Reed
Thomas Dalton
Wily D
Yann Forget