Hi everyone,
To my regret WMCH decided to ignore the things we agreed on in Berlin [1] and started with Wiki Loves Monuments early [2]. I consider this very disrespectful and I'm really pissed off about this. WMCH wasn't able to come to the Berlin meeting but received all results. We talked about this earlier [3], but WMCH failed to respond to the last emails and instead apparently just started.
I am really unhappy with this situation.
Maarten
[1] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monum... [2] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Selected_for_WLM_2011_CH [3] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikilovesmonuments/2011-June/thread.htm...
Yes, it's a bad news...
Elisardojm
2011/7/4 Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl
Hi everyone,
To my regret WMCH decided to ignore the things we agreed on in Berlin [1] and started with Wiki Loves Monuments early [2]. I consider this very disrespectful and I'm really pissed off about this. WMCH wasn't able to come to the Berlin meeting but received all results. We talked about this earlier [3], but WMCH failed to respond to the last emails and instead apparently just started.
I am really unhappy with this situation.
Maarten
[1]
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monum... [2] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Selected_for_WLM_2011_CH [3]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikilovesmonuments/2011-June/thread.htm...
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Hello folks,
I understand Maarten's feelings, considering what he has done for WLM so far.
On the other hand, in the Wikimedia world we have a strong ethos of leaving the operative business to the Wikimedia national organisations, because they might know best what is best in their country. I am not sure where to find the right balance here.
What is the exact negative impact on WLM Europe because of the different decisions in CH?
It seems that we will have in future to work with tighter agreements, a covenant to make sure that we all agree on the basic principles.
Kind regards Ziko
2011/7/4 Elisardo elisardojm@gmail.com:
Yes, it's a bad news...
Elisardojm
2011/7/4 Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl
Hi everyone,
To my regret WMCH decided to ignore the things we agreed on in Berlin [1] and started with Wiki Loves Monuments early [2]. I consider this very disrespectful and I'm really pissed off about this. WMCH wasn't able to come to the Berlin meeting but received all results. We talked about this earlier [3], but WMCH failed to respond to the last emails and instead apparently just started.
I am really unhappy with this situation.
Maarten
[1]
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monum... [2] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Selected_for_WLM_2011_CH [3]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikilovesmonuments/2011-June/thread.htm...
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Hi Ziko,
We discussed this at length in Berlin and afterwards on this mailing list. Some of the disadvantages is a confusing and distorted message to the participants and partners, and the simple fact that the tooling is not ready. It puts extra pressure on the system that doesn't have to be there.
We indeed agreed all that most of the organization is local - and people should do best what works best for them. However, we also all agreed, with the previous arguments and others in mind, that there were a /few/ things we would stick to - the period of time the contest is running is one of them.
Now this could all be a misunderstanding of course, and that it is caused by testing which is misinterpreted as actual contest. Or that the website still needs an update to remove the extra unnecessary thresholds. So I will just wait and hope for a releaving explanation :)
Best,
lodewijk
2011/7/4 Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@googlemail.com
Hello folks,
I understand Maarten's feelings, considering what he has done for WLM so far.
On the other hand, in the Wikimedia world we have a strong ethos of leaving the operative business to the Wikimedia national organisations, because they might know best what is best in their country. I am not sure where to find the right balance here.
What is the exact negative impact on WLM Europe because of the different decisions in CH?
It seems that we will have in future to work with tighter agreements, a covenant to make sure that we all agree on the basic principles.
Kind regards Ziko
2011/7/4 Elisardo elisardojm@gmail.com:
Yes, it's a bad news...
Elisardojm
2011/7/4 Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl
Hi everyone,
To my regret WMCH decided to ignore the things we agreed on in Berlin [1] and started with Wiki Loves Monuments early [2]. I consider this very disrespectful and I'm really pissed off about this. WMCH wasn't able to come to the Berlin meeting but received all results. We talked about this earlier [3], but WMCH failed to respond to the last emails and instead apparently just started.
I am really unhappy with this situation.
Maarten
[1]
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monum...
[2] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Selected_for_WLM_2011_CH [3]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikilovesmonuments/2011-June/thread.htm...
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
-- Ziko van Dijk The Netherlands http://zikoblog.wordpress.com/
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Hi all, This is unfortunate news since it does add confusion to the mix. I do see the problem with the communication deadlines in May however, and I sympathize with all those who have done their best to coordinate these efforts despite the deadlines.
As far as impact goes, I guess the only real negative impact is for Swiss particpants reading the central website and assuming they can upload pictures of Swiss monuments in September that will be part of the European contest. They are of course welcome to upload photos of Swiss monuments in September, but they obviously won't be judged since there's no national jury, and therefore don't really "participate". Technically I see no problem with having such photos (since there will be no publicity in Switzerland for the September timeframe this will presumeably be a small number of photos) tagged with the "Wiki Loves Monuments" upload form in September, since no one working in the contest will look at them anyway (unless someone from Wikimedia CH wants to).
Besides the confusion, there is no substantial negative impact is there? Do we need to remove Switzerland from our central website or add some qualifier there about this? Jane
2011/7/4 Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@googlemail.com
Hello folks,
I understand Maarten's feelings, considering what he has done for WLM so far.
On the other hand, in the Wikimedia world we have a strong ethos of leaving the operative business to the Wikimedia national organisations, because they might know best what is best in their country. I am not sure where to find the right balance here.
What is the exact negative impact on WLM Europe because of the different decisions in CH?
It seems that we will have in future to work with tighter agreements, a covenant to make sure that we all agree on the basic principles.
Kind regards Ziko
2011/7/4 Elisardo elisardojm@gmail.com:
Yes, it's a bad news...
Elisardojm
2011/7/4 Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl
Hi everyone,
To my regret WMCH decided to ignore the things we agreed on in Berlin [1] and started with Wiki Loves Monuments early [2]. I consider this very disrespectful and I'm really pissed off about this. WMCH wasn't able to come to the Berlin meeting but received all results. We talked about this earlier [3], but WMCH failed to respond to the last emails and instead apparently just started.
I am really unhappy with this situation.
Maarten
[1]
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monum...
[2] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Selected_for_WLM_2011_CH [3]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikilovesmonuments/2011-June/thread.htm...
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
-- Ziko van Dijk The Netherlands http://zikoblog.wordpress.com/
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Don't they do the contest in juli, august and september? Mvg, Bas
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 13:01:47 +0200 From: jane023@gmail.com To: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] WLM in Switzerland
Hi all,This is unfortunate news since it does add confusion to the mix. I do see the problem with the communication deadlines in May however, and I sympathize with all those who have done their best to coordinate these efforts despite the deadlines.
As far as impact goes, I guess the only real negative impact is for Swiss particpants reading the central website and assuming they can upload pictures of Swiss monuments in September that will be part of the European contest. They are of course welcome to upload photos of Swiss monuments in September, but they obviously won't be judged since there's no national jury, and therefore don't really "participate". Technically I see no problem with having such photos (since there will be no publicity in Switzerland for the September timeframe this will presumeably be a small number of photos) tagged with the "Wiki Loves Monuments" upload form in September, since no one working in the contest will look at them anyway (unless someone from Wikimedia CH wants to).
Besides the confusion, there is no substantial negative impact is there? Do we need to remove Switzerland from our central website or add some qualifier there about this?Jane
2011/7/4 Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@googlemail.com
Hello folks,
I understand Maarten's feelings, considering what he has done for WLM so far.
On the other hand, in the Wikimedia world we have a strong ethos of
leaving the operative business to the Wikimedia national
organisations, because they might know best what is best in their
country. I am not sure where to find the right balance here.
What is the exact negative impact on WLM Europe because of the
different decisions in CH?
It seems that we will have in future to work with tighter agreements,
a covenant to make sure that we all agree on the basic principles.
Kind regards
Ziko
2011/7/4 Elisardo elisardojm@gmail.com:
Yes, it's a bad news...
Elisardojm
2011/7/4 Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl
Hi everyone,
To my regret WMCH decided to ignore the things we agreed on in Berlin
[1] and started with Wiki Loves Monuments early [2]. I consider this
very disrespectful and I'm really pissed off about this. WMCH wasn't
able to come to the Berlin meeting but received all results. We talked
about this earlier [3], but WMCH failed to respond to the last emails
and instead apparently just started.
I am really unhappy with this situation.
Maarten
[1]
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monum...
[2] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Selected_for_WLM_2011_CH
[3]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikilovesmonuments/2011-June/thread.htm...
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
--
Ziko van Dijk
The Netherlands
http://zikoblog.wordpress.com/
_______________________________________________
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
_______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Yes. We make the swiss contest during july, august and september.
Ludovic
2011/7/5 Bas vb bas_v_b@hotmail.com
Don't they do the contest in juli, august and september?
Mvg,
Bas
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 13:01:47 +0200 From: jane023@gmail.com To: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] WLM in Switzerland
Hi all, This is unfortunate news since it does add confusion to the mix. I do see the problem with the communication deadlines in May however, and I sympathize with all those who have done their best to coordinate these efforts despite the deadlines.
As far as impact goes, I guess the only real negative impact is for Swiss particpants reading the central website and assuming they can upload pictures of Swiss monuments in September that will be part of the European contest. They are of course welcome to upload photos of Swiss monuments in September, but they obviously won't be judged since there's no national jury, and therefore don't really "participate". Technically I see no problem with having such photos (since there will be no publicity in Switzerland for the September timeframe this will presumeably be a small number of photos) tagged with the "Wiki Loves Monuments" upload form in September, since no one working in the contest will look at them anyway (unless someone from Wikimedia CH wants to).
Besides the confusion, there is no substantial negative impact is there? Do we need to remove Switzerland from our central website or add some qualifier there about this? Jane
2011/7/4 Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@googlemail.com
Hello folks,
I understand Maarten's feelings, considering what he has done for WLM so far.
On the other hand, in the Wikimedia world we have a strong ethos of leaving the operative business to the Wikimedia national organisations, because they might know best what is best in their country. I am not sure where to find the right balance here.
What is the exact negative impact on WLM Europe because of the different decisions in CH?
It seems that we will have in future to work with tighter agreements, a covenant to make sure that we all agree on the basic principles.
Kind regards Ziko
2011/7/4 Elisardo elisardojm@gmail.com:
Yes, it's a bad news...
Elisardojm
2011/7/4 Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl
Hi everyone,
To my regret WMCH decided to ignore the things we agreed on in Berlin [1] and started with Wiki Loves Monuments early [2]. I consider this very disrespectful and I'm really pissed off about this. WMCH wasn't able to come to the Berlin meeting but received all results. We talked about this earlier [3], but WMCH failed to respond to the last emails and instead apparently just started.
I am really unhappy with this situation.
Maarten
[1]
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monum...
[2] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Selected_for_WLM_2011_CH [3]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikilovesmonuments/2011-June/thread.htm...
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
-- Ziko van Dijk The Netherlands http://zikoblog.wordpress.com/
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
_______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
OK, so the problem is different than I thought, with the photos uploaded in July and August falling outside the Euro-wide competition. I am a bit unclear how these foto's can be catagorized for the Swiss jury in September to handle. As far as I know, the upload form for Wiki Loves Monuments will only work in September, right? (just tested the upload form for a RM and no worries, it's just the basic upload without a monument prompt)
I see no negative impact for the rest of Europe, just a bigger job for CH. Jane
2011/7/5 Ludovic Péron ludovic.peron@gmail.com
Yes. We make the swiss contest during july, august and september.
Ludovic
2011/7/5 Bas vb bas_v_b@hotmail.com
Don't they do the contest in juli, august and september?
Mvg,
Bas
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 13:01:47 +0200 From: jane023@gmail.com To: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] WLM in Switzerland
Hi all, This is unfortunate news since it does add confusion to the mix. I do see the problem with the communication deadlines in May however, and I sympathize with all those who have done their best to coordinate these efforts despite the deadlines.
As far as impact goes, I guess the only real negative impact is for Swiss particpants reading the central website and assuming they can upload pictures of Swiss monuments in September that will be part of the European contest. They are of course welcome to upload photos of Swiss monuments in September, but they obviously won't be judged since there's no national jury, and therefore don't really "participate". Technically I see no problem with having such photos (since there will be no publicity in Switzerland for the September timeframe this will presumeably be a small number of photos) tagged with the "Wiki Loves Monuments" upload form in September, since no one working in the contest will look at them anyway (unless someone from Wikimedia CH wants to).
Besides the confusion, there is no substantial negative impact is there? Do we need to remove Switzerland from our central website or add some qualifier there about this? Jane
2011/7/4 Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@googlemail.com
Hello folks,
I understand Maarten's feelings, considering what he has done for WLM so far.
On the other hand, in the Wikimedia world we have a strong ethos of leaving the operative business to the Wikimedia national organisations, because they might know best what is best in their country. I am not sure where to find the right balance here.
What is the exact negative impact on WLM Europe because of the different decisions in CH?
It seems that we will have in future to work with tighter agreements, a covenant to make sure that we all agree on the basic principles.
Kind regards Ziko
2011/7/4 Elisardo elisardojm@gmail.com:
Yes, it's a bad news...
Elisardojm
2011/7/4 Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl
Hi everyone,
To my regret WMCH decided to ignore the things we agreed on in Berlin [1] and started with Wiki Loves Monuments early [2]. I consider this very disrespectful and I'm really pissed off about this. WMCH wasn't able to come to the Berlin meeting but received all results. We talked about this earlier [3], but WMCH failed to respond to the last emails and instead apparently just started.
I am really unhappy with this situation.
Maarten
[1]
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monum...
[2]
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Selected_for_WLM_2011_CH
[3]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikilovesmonuments/2011-June/thread.htm...
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
-- Ziko van Dijk The Netherlands http://zikoblog.wordpress.com/
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
_______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Hello,
When Lodewijk talked about "a misunderstanding", he wanted to build a bridge to return to the rules we have agreed on, not to provide an excuse for not following them.
I must say that I am very unhappy about this phrase: "... the Swiss contest will have place in September because someone in Berlin has decided differently".
Among Wikimedia national organizations, we do not follow orders from Berlin or Bern or from somewhere else.
What we do is talking with each other and come to an agreement. The participating national organizations might decide - together or in their majority - that if some basic principles are not met, then this has negative consequences. For example not letting CH photos participate in the European jury contest. I don't say that that will necessarily happen, but it is a possibility.
Having this said, I am still open to arguments why (maybe in future) a photo contest in months other than September might make sense. But I think that international agreements should be respected, and that phrases such as "someone in Berlin has decided differently" do not contribute to a good athmosphere among Wikimedia national organizations.
Kind regards Ziko
2011/7/5 Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com:
OK, so the problem is different than I thought, with the photos uploaded in July and August falling outside the Euro-wide competition. I am a bit unclear how these foto's can be catagorized for the Swiss jury in September to handle. As far as I know, the upload form for Wiki Loves Monuments will only work in September, right? (just tested the upload form for a RM and no worries, it's just the basic upload without a monument prompt) I see no negative impact for the rest of Europe, just a bigger job for CH. Jane
2011/7/5 Ludovic Péron ludovic.peron@gmail.com
Yes. We make the swiss contest during july, august and september.
Ludovic
2011/7/5 Bas vb bas_v_b@hotmail.com
Don't they do the contest in juli, august and september? Mvg, Bas
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 13:01:47 +0200 From: jane023@gmail.com To: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] WLM in Switzerland
Hi all, This is unfortunate news since it does add confusion to the mix. I do see the problem with the communication deadlines in May however, and I sympathize with all those who have done their best to coordinate these efforts despite the deadlines. As far as impact goes, I guess the only real negative impact is for Swiss particpants reading the central website and assuming they can upload pictures of Swiss monuments in September that will be part of the European contest. They are of course welcome to upload photos of Swiss monuments in September, but they obviously won't be judged since there's no national jury, and therefore don't really "participate". Technically I see no problem with having such photos (since there will be no publicity in Switzerland for the September timeframe this will presumeably be a small number of photos) tagged with the "Wiki Loves Monuments" upload form in September, since no one working in the contest will look at them anyway (unless someone from Wikimedia CH wants to). Besides the confusion, there is no substantial negative impact is there? Do we need to remove Switzerland from our central website or add some qualifier there about this? Jane
2011/7/4 Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@googlemail.com
Hello folks,
I understand Maarten's feelings, considering what he has done for WLM so far.
On the other hand, in the Wikimedia world we have a strong ethos of leaving the operative business to the Wikimedia national organisations, because they might know best what is best in their country. I am not sure where to find the right balance here.
What is the exact negative impact on WLM Europe because of the different decisions in CH?
It seems that we will have in future to work with tighter agreements, a covenant to make sure that we all agree on the basic principles.
Kind regards Ziko
2011/7/4 Elisardo elisardojm@gmail.com:
Yes, it's a bad news...
Elisardojm
2011/7/4 Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl
Hi everyone,
To my regret WMCH decided to ignore the things we agreed on in Berlin [1] and started with Wiki Loves Monuments early [2]. I consider this very disrespectful and I'm really pissed off about this. WMCH wasn't able to come to the Berlin meeting but received all results. We talked about this earlier [3], but WMCH failed to respond to the last emails and instead apparently just started.
I am really unhappy with this situation.
Maarten
[1]
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monum... [2] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Selected_for_WLM_2011_CH [3]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikilovesmonuments/2011-June/thread.htm...
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
-- Ziko van Dijk The Netherlands http://zikoblog.wordpress.com/
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
_______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
But what is the intest of such a rule?
Keeping the attention to a high level? No problem, we make our own advertisment in local press, the running of the contest in switzerland during summer has no impact on what happen in other country, and in september we will adapt our communication to fit to the european envergure of the contest.
Tagging of the pictures? No problem, we already tag our own pictures.
Selection of the pictures? We make the selection, so it has no impact on other countries. Only september upload files are eligible? Ok just change the rules "pictures uplaod during national contest are eligible" and it is fixed.
For me the statement that we don't change the date, just because it has been decide like this in Berlin, is more because no strong argument has been given to support this "september only" rule. IMHO the important thing is that the contest end in every country at the same date, this is important for the communication impact, like this we can comunicate in each of the country that is an european event.
We don't know how the organisation is going on in each of your country, I could imagine that for some of you it is better to focus on only one month, but it is definitively not the case for us, it is even totaly the oposite, we have absolutely no interest to run a contest during a simple month.
Since the beggining we planned this contest on a three month base, we really don't see how it could negatively impact how the contest is running in other country, you really think that your national Media will cover the swiss contest?
Charles
Le 5 juil. 2011 à 14:55, Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@googlemail.com a écrit :
Hello,
When Lodewijk talked about "a misunderstanding", he wanted to build a bridge to return to the rules we have agreed on, not to provide an excuse for not following them.
I must say that I am very unhappy about this phrase: "... the Swiss contest will have place in September because someone in Berlin has decided differently".
Among Wikimedia national organizations, we do not follow orders from Berlin or Bern or from somewhere else.
What we do is talking with each other and come to an agreement. The participating national organizations might decide - together or in their majority - that if some basic principles are not met, then this has negative consequences. For example not letting CH photos participate in the European jury contest. I don't say that that will necessarily happen, but it is a possibility.
Having this said, I am still open to arguments why (maybe in future) a photo contest in months other than September might make sense. But I think that international agreements should be respected, and that phrases such as "someone in Berlin has decided differently" do not contribute to a good athmosphere among Wikimedia national organizations.
Kind regards Ziko
2011/7/5 Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com:
OK, so the problem is different than I thought, with the photos uploaded in July and August falling outside the Euro-wide competition. I am a bit unclear how these foto's can be catagorized for the Swiss jury in September to handle. As far as I know, the upload form for Wiki Loves Monuments will only work in September, right? (just tested the upload form for a RM and no worries, it's just the basic upload without a monument prompt) I see no negative impact for the rest of Europe, just a bigger job for CH. Jane
2011/7/5 Ludovic Péron ludovic.peron@gmail.com
Yes. We make the swiss contest during july, august and september.
Ludovic
2011/7/5 Bas vb bas_v_b@hotmail.com
Don't they do the contest in juli, august and september? Mvg, Bas
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 13:01:47 +0200 From: jane023@gmail.com To: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] WLM in Switzerland
Hi all, This is unfortunate news since it does add confusion to the mix. I do see the problem with the communication deadlines in May however, and I sympathize with all those who have done their best to coordinate these efforts despite the deadlines. As far as impact goes, I guess the only real negative impact is for Swiss particpants reading the central website and assuming they can upload pictures of Swiss monuments in September that will be part of the European contest. They are of course welcome to upload photos of Swiss monuments in September, but they obviously won't be judged since there's no national jury, and therefore don't really "participate". Technically I see no problem with having such photos (since there will be no publicity in Switzerland for the September timeframe this will presumeably be a small number of photos) tagged with the "Wiki Loves Monuments" upload form in September, since no one working in the contest will look at them anyway (unless someone from Wikimedia CH wants to). Besides the confusion, there is no substantial negative impact is there? Do we need to remove Switzerland from our central website or add some qualifier there about this? Jane
2011/7/4 Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@googlemail.com
Hello folks,
I understand Maarten's feelings, considering what he has done for WLM so far.
On the other hand, in the Wikimedia world we have a strong ethos of leaving the operative business to the Wikimedia national organisations, because they might know best what is best in their country. I am not sure where to find the right balance here.
What is the exact negative impact on WLM Europe because of the different decisions in CH?
It seems that we will have in future to work with tighter agreements, a covenant to make sure that we all agree on the basic principles.
Kind regards Ziko
2011/7/4 Elisardo elisardojm@gmail.com:
Yes, it's a bad news...
Elisardojm
2011/7/4 Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl
Hi everyone,
To my regret WMCH decided to ignore the things we agreed on in Berlin [1] and started with Wiki Loves Monuments early [2]. I consider this very disrespectful and I'm really pissed off about this. WMCH wasn't able to come to the Berlin meeting but received all results. We talked about this earlier [3], but WMCH failed to respond to the last emails and instead apparently just started.
I am really unhappy with this situation.
Maarten
[1]
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monum... [2] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Selected_for_WLM_2011_CH [3]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikilovesmonuments/2011-June/thread.htm...
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On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 2:55 PM, Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@googlemail.com wrote:
I must say that I am very unhappy about this phrase: "... the Swiss contest will have place in September because someone in Berlin has decided differently".
This is not what I think, but this is the justification to give to some important partners and to the organization.
Do you have a different one? Another different from: "... the Swiss contest will have place in September because *we* have decided differently".
Ilario
I just want to make some point clear: *WMCH support the european WLM contest and will help every chapter needing us *the format of the swiss contest need to be on a 3 summer month basis because: **weather could be howfull in september in lot of region of switzerland, other wmch member have fun of me because I can't see the sky because of the fog! :-) **we are building interaction with cantonal institutions in charge of swiss heritage, if we succeed in our goal of covering 50% of the 4800 target monuments, the 2012 edition will be a full collaboration with all of this cantonal institutions **the wlm contest is part of the TAO project with the colaboration with seniroweb.ch, this include the organisation of local event as organised travel in region with a photgraphic "safari" folowed by workso to explain the uploading process. For this type of event we need time, we can't do it in one month, or it will be only for elderly people that are already confident with pictures and internet
Sincerely
Charles
Le 5 juil. 2011 à 17:22, Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com a écrit :
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 2:55 PM, Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@googlemail.com wrote:
I must say that I am very unhappy about this phrase: "... the Swiss contest will have place in September because someone in Berlin has decided differently".
This is not what I think, but this is the justification to give to some important partners and to the organization.
Do you have a different one? Another different from: "... the Swiss contest will have place in September because *we* have decided differently".
Ilario
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
I think the point is: maybe it would also have advantages for other countries to do the contest in different times, duration, etc., but we decided as a group to have it simultaneously for logistic, promotional and fairness reasons. Perhaps Commons will get more and better pictures from Switzerland, but we need to take into account the bias that this will introduce to the European contest, as Swiss participants will have more time to upload photos if photos from all three months are entered.
Best, Gonçalo
2011/7/5 Charles Andrès charles.andres@wikimedia.ch
I just want to make some point clear: *WMCH support the european WLM contest and will help every chapter needing us *the format of the swiss contest need to be on a 3 summer month basis because: **weather could be howfull in september in lot of region of switzerland, other wmch member have fun of me because I can't see the sky because of the fog! :-) **we are building interaction with cantonal institutions in charge of swiss heritage, if we succeed in our goal of covering 50% of the 4800 target monuments, the 2012 edition will be a full collaboration with all of this cantonal institutions **the wlm contest is part of the TAO project with the colaboration with seniroweb.ch, this include the organisation of local event as organised travel in region with a photgraphic "safari" folowed by workso to explain the uploading process. For this type of event we need time, we can't do it in one month, or it will be only for elderly people that are already confident with pictures and internet
Sincerely
Charles
Le 5 juil. 2011 à 17:22, Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com a écrit :
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 2:55 PM, Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@googlemail.com
wrote:
I must say that I am very unhappy about this phrase: "... the Swiss contest will have place in September because someone in Berlin has decided differently".
This is not what I think, but this is the justification to give to some important partners and to the organization.
Do you have a different one? Another different from: "... the Swiss contest will have place in September because *we* have decided differently".
Ilario
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I don't understand your point! For the contest,only ten pictures per country will used, no? So the amount of pictures in commons will be huge for switzerland, but still ten for the european contest, I don't really see the lack of fairness, only if you consider a statistical point of view.
Logistic and promotion are the responsability of each participating chapter, again I don't see the problem because the promotion will be local. For logistic, maybe you talk about tag of the pictures? We already do it manually, with a template, if needed it would be easy to replace the actual template by another one.
Again I don't see a clear reason our contest should start in september, the goal of the contest is to reach the more people and make them new commons user/uploader, the prices and the ranking is accessory.
Charles
Le 5 juil. 2011 à 17:57, "GoEthe.wiki" goethe.wiki@gmail.com a écrit :
I think the point is: maybe it would also have advantages for other countries to do the contest in different times, duration, etc., but we decided as a group to have it simultaneously for logistic, promotional and fairness reasons. Perhaps Commons will get more and better pictures from Switzerland, but we need to take into account the bias that this will introduce to the European contest, as Swiss participants will have more time to upload photos if photos from all three months are entered.
Best, Gonçalo
2011/7/5 Charles Andrès charles.andres@wikimedia.ch I just want to make some point clear: *WMCH support the european WLM contest and will help every chapter needing us *the format of the swiss contest need to be on a 3 summer month basis because: **weather could be howfull in september in lot of region of switzerland, other wmch member have fun of me because I can't see the sky because of the fog! :-) **we are building interaction with cantonal institutions in charge of swiss heritage, if we succeed in our goal of covering 50% of the 4800 target monuments, the 2012 edition will be a full collaboration with all of this cantonal institutions **the wlm contest is part of the TAO project with the colaboration with seniroweb.ch, this include the organisation of local event as organised travel in region with a photgraphic "safari" folowed by workso to explain the uploading process. For this type of event we need time, we can't do it in one month, or it will be only for elderly people that are already confident with pictures and internet
Sincerely
Charles
Le 5 juil. 2011 à 17:22, Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com a écrit :
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 2:55 PM, Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@googlemail.com wrote:
I must say that I am very unhappy about this phrase: "... the Swiss contest will have place in September because someone in Berlin has decided differently".
This is not what I think, but this is the justification to give to some important partners and to the organization.
Do you have a different one? Another different from: "... the Swiss contest will have place in September because *we* have decided differently".
Ilario
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
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A contest is only fair if all the players follow the same rules, otherwise some will have an unfair advantage or disadvantage. If participants from Switzerland can participate for a longer period, this will have an effect in the ammount and quality of the photos. It is hard to predict whether this will benefit Swiss participants or even increase the number of photos submitted, but for sure the difference in rules will have an effect.
In terms of logistic, several before me have mentioned the upload form that i believe is still not ready.
Promotionwise, the impact of advertising a european contest run in 15 (or whatever) countries simultaneously is quite different than if the contest is run at different times. This was the point made in Berlin to keep national contests synchronised.
I agree with you that the prizes and ranking are accessory to the goal of Wikimedia, but I for one would like the contest to be fair as well.
Gonçalo
2011/7/5 Charles Andrès charles.andres@wikimedia.ch
I don't understand your point! For the contest,only ten pictures per country will used, no? So the amount of pictures in commons will be huge for switzerland, but still ten for the european contest, I don't really see the lack of fairness, only if you consider a statistical point of view.
Logistic and promotion are the responsability of each participating chapter, again I don't see the problem because the promotion will be local. For logistic, maybe you talk about tag of the pictures? We already do it manually, with a template, if needed it would be easy to replace the actual template by another one.
Again I don't see a clear reason our contest should start in september, the goal of the contest is to reach the more people and make them new commons user/uploader, the prices and the ranking is accessory.
Charles
Le 5 juil. 2011 à 17:57, "GoEthe.wiki" goethe.wiki@gmail.com a écrit :
I think the point is: maybe it would also have advantages for other countries to do the contest in different times, duration, etc., but we decided as a group to have it simultaneously for logistic, promotional and fairness reasons. Perhaps Commons will get more and better pictures from Switzerland, but we need to take into account the bias that this will introduce to the European contest, as Swiss participants will have more time to upload photos if photos from all three months are entered.
Best, Gonçalo
2011/7/5 Charles Andrès < charles.andres@wikimedia.ch charles.andres@wikimedia.ch>
I just want to make some point clear: *WMCH support the european WLM contest and will help every chapter needing us *the format of the swiss contest need to be on a 3 summer month basis because: **weather could be howfull in september in lot of region of switzerland, other wmch member have fun of me because I can't see the sky because of the fog! :-) **we are building interaction with cantonal institutions in charge of swiss heritage, if we succeed in our goal of covering 50% of the 4800 target monuments, the 2012 edition will be a full collaboration with all of this cantonal institutions **the wlm contest is part of the TAO project with the colaboration with http://seniroweb.chseniroweb.ch, this include the organisation of local event as organised travel in region with a photgraphic "safari" folowed by workso to explain the uploading process. For this type of event we need time, we can't do it in one month, or it will be only for elderly people that are already confident with pictures and internet
Sincerely
Charles
Le 5 juil. 2011 à 17:22, Ilario Valdelli < valdelli@gmail.com valdelli@gmail.com> a écrit :
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 2:55 PM, Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk@googlemail.com
zvandijk@googlemail.com> wrote:
I must say that I am very unhappy about this phrase: "... the Swiss contest will have place in September because someone in Berlin has decided differently".
This is not what I think, but this is the justification to give to some important partners and to the organization.
Do you have a different one? Another different from: "... the Swiss contest will have place in September because *we* have decided differently".
Ilario
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On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 5:57 PM, GoEthe.wiki goethe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I think the point is: maybe it would also have advantages for other countries to do the contest in different times, duration, etc., but we decided as a group to have it simultaneously for logistic, promotional and fairness reasons.
And we have decided to have it in summer for the same reason.
It's not a question of advantage, it's a question for a better logistic, a better promotion and a better fairness reason.
The question is simple, If we had received a negative answer to Nico's question, surely we would sit down and discuss with the partners whether there was possible to participate. I can anticipate that the question was probably negative.
The decision of the Swiss contest has been a shared decision not with the chapters, but with the partners, which are directly involved in this national organization.
I agree that the European contest must be a decision taken by the chapters, but the National contest is a decision taken by the local chapter and the partners and they must decide the best solution to have a successful event.
Now Switzerland in a middle of a dispute: to comply with the decision of the chapters or to comply with the decision of the partners.
It seems to me honest to say that we would respect the decision of the partners for the Swiss contest because it is a local organization and the partners participate with their internal resources, we would respect the decision of the chapters for the European contest because it is a shared decision and there is no sense to have an independent decision.
Ilario
Hello all,
It is wonderful we finally have a good conversation about this.
There are several reasons why we should have the same dates throughout Europe - we discussed those both in Berlin and on this mailing list. I will not bore anyone with them right now though, because it doesn't matter any more. I'd love to have this discussion in depth, but let's do that elsewhere (I would recommand though to read through the meeting minutes of Berlin).
The current situation is simple: Wikimedia Switzerland decided (and I still disagree with that strongly) to ignore the agreed timeframe - for whatever reason. Since the contest is now already ongoing for them, it doesn't matter much any more for the contest.
Besides the time frame, there is the issue of the upload pipeline. This is another topic we agreed on together - and also here there are very good (and obvious) reasons: uploading should be as easy as possible. Right now, the pipeline of WMCH required participants to register *both* on Wikimedia Commons and on their website, to upload the images through the regular Commons upload system, to manually tag them (not with any monument ID btw) and thén to mark them through the contest website. This is totally different from the intended and agreed pipeline, which is much more simple: Create an account on Commons, use the special, simplified upload form - enter the monument identifier and done. We will take care of the rest.
There are a few things we need to resolve:
1. Which images are admissible for the European competition 2. How can we simplify the uploading methods currently in place (which are even more complicated than normal upload procedures.) 3. How do we communicate this all
For 1. I think that it doesn't help anyone to exclude images from Switzerland. However, the monuments uploaded through commons currently lack identifiers - as long as they miss those, they are not eligible. (But I assume that can be fixed). An alternative could be to only accept images uploaded between 1 and 30 september. Please note that it was already in the plan that it wouldn't matter to us *when* the photo was taken, but only when it was uploaded. I cannot make this decision by myself though.
For 2. I think it would be best if WMCH would simplify their procedures as much as possible. Not because we agreed, but because that improves participation. There will become tooling available for easier uploading but that will be become available at the agreed upon time schedule. We can't speed this up for you. You could consider hacking together a form like WMNL used last year to significantly simplify uploading. Please check the post mortem 2010 for more information.
For 3. I think it would help if we could consider July/August as a "silent start" - trying to persuade your partners to not advertize it too loudly until September 1. That way potential participants can enjoy the then available tooling and more easy upload system. I know this is uncomfortable, but I would really appreciate it if you could postpone publicizing as much as possible until September.
I hope that the hostile tone can be left behind - fights over independence and agreements will help nobody. Let's try to reduce damage and find a middle way.
Best regards,
Lodewijk
2011/7/5 Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 5:57 PM, GoEthe.wiki goethe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I think the point is: maybe it would also have advantages for other countries to do the contest in different times, duration, etc., but we decided as a group to have it simultaneously for logistic, promotional
and
fairness reasons.
And we have decided to have it in summer for the same reason.
It's not a question of advantage, it's a question for a better logistic, a better promotion and a better fairness reason.
The question is simple, If we had received a negative answer to Nico's question, surely we would sit down and discuss with the partners whether there was possible to participate. I can anticipate that the question was probably negative.
The decision of the Swiss contest has been a shared decision not with the chapters, but with the partners, which are directly involved in this national organization.
I agree that the European contest must be a decision taken by the chapters, but the National contest is a decision taken by the local chapter and the partners and they must decide the best solution to have a successful event.
Now Switzerland in a middle of a dispute: to comply with the decision of the chapters or to comply with the decision of the partners.
It seems to me honest to say that we would respect the decision of the partners for the Swiss contest because it is a local organization and the partners participate with their internal resources, we would respect the decision of the chapters for the European contest because it is a shared decision and there is no sense to have an independent decision.
Ilario
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Hi Lodewikk and thanks for this summary.
Regarding your 3 points:
1. If you decide so, Swiss chapter will only present pictures uploaded in September to the European contest. This is absolutely not a problem for us
2. As soon as the simplifed form will be available, we will update our procedure to include it. So far, I didn't receive any complain on this topic, so we can continue like this until you are ready. Don't worry for us
3. To my best knowledge, the only advertizement done on the Swiss contest outside the country is... this mailing list. We don't plan any communication outside the country so it's only up to all of you close this topic and not heard about us anymore.
I would only add a 4th point : there is still a lot of work till September for all of us. Therefore, I strongly suggest everybody to concentrate all our energy in usefull work to make the contest a success.
With best regards, Nico
2011/7/5 Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org
Hello all,
It is wonderful we finally have a good conversation about this.
There are several reasons why we should have the same dates throughout Europe - we discussed those both in Berlin and on this mailing list. I will not bore anyone with them right now though, because it doesn't matter any more. I'd love to have this discussion in depth, but let's do that elsewhere (I would recommand though to read through the meeting minutes of Berlin).
The current situation is simple: Wikimedia Switzerland decided (and I still disagree with that strongly) to ignore the agreed timeframe - for whatever reason. Since the contest is now already ongoing for them, it doesn't matter much any more for the contest.
Besides the time frame, there is the issue of the upload pipeline. This is another topic we agreed on together - and also here there are very good (and obvious) reasons: uploading should be as easy as possible. Right now, the pipeline of WMCH required participants to register *both* on Wikimedia Commons and on their website, to upload the images through the regular Commons upload system, to manually tag them (not with any monument ID btw) and thén to mark them through the contest website. This is totally different from the intended and agreed pipeline, which is much more simple: Create an account on Commons, use the special, simplified upload form - enter the monument identifier and done. We will take care of the rest.
There are a few things we need to resolve:
- Which images are admissible for the European competition
- How can we simplify the uploading methods currently in place (which are
even more complicated than normal upload procedures.) 3. How do we communicate this all
For 1. I think that it doesn't help anyone to exclude images from Switzerland. However, the monuments uploaded through commons currently lack identifiers - as long as they miss those, they are not eligible. (But I assume that can be fixed). An alternative could be to only accept images uploaded between 1 and 30 september. Please note that it was already in the plan that it wouldn't matter to us *when* the photo was taken, but only when it was uploaded. I cannot make this decision by myself though.
For 2. I think it would be best if WMCH would simplify their procedures as much as possible. Not because we agreed, but because that improves participation. There will become tooling available for easier uploading but that will be become available at the agreed upon time schedule. We can't speed this up for you. You could consider hacking together a form like WMNL used last year to significantly simplify uploading. Please check the post mortem 2010 for more information.
For 3. I think it would help if we could consider July/August as a "silent start" - trying to persuade your partners to not advertize it too loudly until September 1. That way potential participants can enjoy the then available tooling and more easy upload system. I know this is uncomfortable, but I would really appreciate it if you could postpone publicizing as much as possible until September.
I hope that the hostile tone can be left behind - fights over independence and agreements will help nobody. Let's try to reduce damage and find a middle way.
Best regards,
Lodewijk
2011/7/5 Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 5:57 PM, GoEthe.wiki goethe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I think the point is: maybe it would also have advantages for other countries to do the contest in different times, duration, etc., but we decided as a group to have it simultaneously for logistic, promotional
and
fairness reasons.
And we have decided to have it in summer for the same reason.
It's not a question of advantage, it's a question for a better logistic, a better promotion and a better fairness reason.
The question is simple, If we had received a negative answer to Nico's question, surely we would sit down and discuss with the partners whether there was possible to participate. I can anticipate that the question was probably negative.
The decision of the Swiss contest has been a shared decision not with the chapters, but with the partners, which are directly involved in this national organization.
I agree that the European contest must be a decision taken by the chapters, but the National contest is a decision taken by the local chapter and the partners and they must decide the best solution to have a successful event.
Now Switzerland in a middle of a dispute: to comply with the decision of the chapters or to comply with the decision of the partners.
It seems to me honest to say that we would respect the decision of the partners for the Swiss contest because it is a local organization and the partners participate with their internal resources, we would respect the decision of the chapters for the European contest because it is a shared decision and there is no sense to have an independent decision.
Ilario
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
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Hi Nico,
thank you for your reply. Just to make sure we really are on one line:
On point 2. we also discussed in depth the use of extra login layers - and I strongly advise against that. Please keep in mind that most people don't complain, but just give up - at least that is our experience from last year. I heard several people who tried to use commons before, failed and just gave up. They did use our simplified form and succeeded.
On point 3., I was also meaning communicating within Switzerland. In the end, the internet is open and wide - and things just get abroad. But also if only the september images would participate european (only september is no set in stone certainty yet) then it would be benificial and fair to those participants to push them as much as possible to September. Of course you could if you want suggest to them to make the images before then - and upload them in september.
Lodewijk
2011/7/5 Manoillon manoillon@gmail.com
Hi Lodewikk and thanks for this summary.
Regarding your 3 points:
- If you decide so, Swiss chapter will only present pictures uploaded in
September to the European contest. This is absolutely not a problem for us
- As soon as the simplifed form will be available, we will update our
procedure to include it. So far, I didn't receive any complain on this topic, so we can continue like this until you are ready. Don't worry for us
- To my best knowledge, the only advertizement done on the Swiss contest
outside the country is... this mailing list. We don't plan any communication outside the country so it's only up to all of you close this topic and not heard about us anymore.
I would only add a 4th point : there is still a lot of work till September for all of us. Therefore, I strongly suggest everybody to concentrate all our energy in usefull work to make the contest a success.
With best regards, Nico
2011/7/5 Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org
Hello all,
It is wonderful we finally have a good conversation about this.
There are several reasons why we should have the same dates throughout Europe - we discussed those both in Berlin and on this mailing list. I will not bore anyone with them right now though, because it doesn't matter any more. I'd love to have this discussion in depth, but let's do that elsewhere (I would recommand though to read through the meeting minutes of Berlin).
The current situation is simple: Wikimedia Switzerland decided (and I still disagree with that strongly) to ignore the agreed timeframe - for whatever reason. Since the contest is now already ongoing for them, it doesn't matter much any more for the contest.
Besides the time frame, there is the issue of the upload pipeline. This is another topic we agreed on together - and also here there are very good (and obvious) reasons: uploading should be as easy as possible. Right now, the pipeline of WMCH required participants to register *both* on Wikimedia Commons and on their website, to upload the images through the regular Commons upload system, to manually tag them (not with any monument ID btw) and thén to mark them through the contest website. This is totally different from the intended and agreed pipeline, which is much more simple: Create an account on Commons, use the special, simplified upload form - enter the monument identifier and done. We will take care of the rest.
There are a few things we need to resolve:
- Which images are admissible for the European competition
- How can we simplify the uploading methods currently in place (which are
even more complicated than normal upload procedures.) 3. How do we communicate this all
For 1. I think that it doesn't help anyone to exclude images from Switzerland. However, the monuments uploaded through commons currently lack identifiers - as long as they miss those, they are not eligible. (But I assume that can be fixed). An alternative could be to only accept images uploaded between 1 and 30 september. Please note that it was already in the plan that it wouldn't matter to us *when* the photo was taken, but only when it was uploaded. I cannot make this decision by myself though.
For 2. I think it would be best if WMCH would simplify their procedures as much as possible. Not because we agreed, but because that improves participation. There will become tooling available for easier uploading but that will be become available at the agreed upon time schedule. We can't speed this up for you. You could consider hacking together a form like WMNL used last year to significantly simplify uploading. Please check the post mortem 2010 for more information.
For 3. I think it would help if we could consider July/August as a "silent start" - trying to persuade your partners to not advertize it too loudly until September 1. That way potential participants can enjoy the then available tooling and more easy upload system. I know this is uncomfortable, but I would really appreciate it if you could postpone publicizing as much as possible until September.
I hope that the hostile tone can be left behind - fights over independence and agreements will help nobody. Let's try to reduce damage and find a middle way.
Best regards,
Lodewijk
2011/7/5 Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 5:57 PM, GoEthe.wiki goethe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I think the point is: maybe it would also have advantages for other countries to do the contest in different times, duration, etc., but we decided as a group to have it simultaneously for logistic, promotional
and
fairness reasons.
And we have decided to have it in summer for the same reason.
It's not a question of advantage, it's a question for a better logistic, a better promotion and a better fairness reason.
The question is simple, If we had received a negative answer to Nico's question, surely we would sit down and discuss with the partners whether there was possible to participate. I can anticipate that the question was probably negative.
The decision of the Swiss contest has been a shared decision not with the chapters, but with the partners, which are directly involved in this national organization.
I agree that the European contest must be a decision taken by the chapters, but the National contest is a decision taken by the local chapter and the partners and they must decide the best solution to have a successful event.
Now Switzerland in a middle of a dispute: to comply with the decision of the chapters or to comply with the decision of the partners.
It seems to me honest to say that we would respect the decision of the partners for the Swiss contest because it is a local organization and the partners participate with their internal resources, we would respect the decision of the chapters for the European contest because it is a shared decision and there is no sense to have an independent decision.
Ilario
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Hello, I am a bit concerned about the lack of image tagging - this sounds like it will be a problem for image sorting and categorizing. I understand that we all prefer the photos to be uploaded in September, but I also hope that we can properly administer the photos uploaded today. I think it's great to have those monuments coming in to commons with or without the contest rules; the main point is make sure they are properly tagged to their associated monument list so wikipedia editors can later find them to use them in articles.
Of course this may just be a startup problem, but let's please solve this issue for CH and the rest of Europe who may have a similar issue. Jane
2011/7/5 Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org
Hi Nico,
thank you for your reply. Just to make sure we really are on one line:
On point 2. we also discussed in depth the use of extra login layers - and I strongly advise against that. Please keep in mind that most people don't complain, but just give up - at least that is our experience from last year. I heard several people who tried to use commons before, failed and just gave up. They did use our simplified form and succeeded.
On point 3., I was also meaning communicating within Switzerland. In the end, the internet is open and wide - and things just get abroad. But also if only the september images would participate european (only september is no set in stone certainty yet) then it would be benificial and fair to those participants to push them as much as possible to September. Of course you could if you want suggest to them to make the images before then - and upload them in september.
Lodewijk
2011/7/5 Manoillon manoillon@gmail.com
Hi Lodewikk and thanks for this summary.
Regarding your 3 points:
- If you decide so, Swiss chapter will only present pictures uploaded in
September to the European contest. This is absolutely not a problem for us
- As soon as the simplifed form will be available, we will update our
procedure to include it. So far, I didn't receive any complain on this topic, so we can continue like this until you are ready. Don't worry for us
- To my best knowledge, the only advertizement done on the Swiss contest
outside the country is... this mailing list. We don't plan any communication outside the country so it's only up to all of you close this topic and not heard about us anymore.
I would only add a 4th point : there is still a lot of work till September for all of us. Therefore, I strongly suggest everybody to concentrate all our energy in usefull work to make the contest a success.
With best regards, Nico
2011/7/5 Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org
Hello all,
It is wonderful we finally have a good conversation about this.
There are several reasons why we should have the same dates throughout Europe - we discussed those both in Berlin and on this mailing list. I will not bore anyone with them right now though, because it doesn't matter any more. I'd love to have this discussion in depth, but let's do that elsewhere (I would recommand though to read through the meeting minutes of Berlin).
The current situation is simple: Wikimedia Switzerland decided (and I still disagree with that strongly) to ignore the agreed timeframe - for whatever reason. Since the contest is now already ongoing for them, it doesn't matter much any more for the contest.
Besides the time frame, there is the issue of the upload pipeline. This is another topic we agreed on together - and also here there are very good (and obvious) reasons: uploading should be as easy as possible. Right now, the pipeline of WMCH required participants to register *both* on Wikimedia Commons and on their website, to upload the images through the regular Commons upload system, to manually tag them (not with any monument ID btw) and thén to mark them through the contest website. This is totally different from the intended and agreed pipeline, which is much more simple: Create an account on Commons, use the special, simplified upload form - enter the monument identifier and done. We will take care of the rest.
There are a few things we need to resolve:
- Which images are admissible for the European competition
- How can we simplify the uploading methods currently in place (which
are even more complicated than normal upload procedures.) 3. How do we communicate this all
For 1. I think that it doesn't help anyone to exclude images from Switzerland. However, the monuments uploaded through commons currently lack identifiers - as long as they miss those, they are not eligible. (But I assume that can be fixed). An alternative could be to only accept images uploaded between 1 and 30 september. Please note that it was already in the plan that it wouldn't matter to us *when* the photo was taken, but only when it was uploaded. I cannot make this decision by myself though.
For 2. I think it would be best if WMCH would simplify their procedures as much as possible. Not because we agreed, but because that improves participation. There will become tooling available for easier uploading but that will be become available at the agreed upon time schedule. We can't speed this up for you. You could consider hacking together a form like WMNL used last year to significantly simplify uploading. Please check the post mortem 2010 for more information.
For 3. I think it would help if we could consider July/August as a "silent start" - trying to persuade your partners to not advertize it too loudly until September 1. That way potential participants can enjoy the then available tooling and more easy upload system. I know this is uncomfortable, but I would really appreciate it if you could postpone publicizing as much as possible until September.
I hope that the hostile tone can be left behind - fights over independence and agreements will help nobody. Let's try to reduce damage and find a middle way.
Best regards,
Lodewijk
2011/7/5 Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 5:57 PM, GoEthe.wiki goethe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I think the point is: maybe it would also have advantages for other countries to do the contest in different times, duration, etc., but we decided as a group to have it simultaneously for logistic, promotional
and
fairness reasons.
And we have decided to have it in summer for the same reason.
It's not a question of advantage, it's a question for a better logistic, a better promotion and a better fairness reason.
The question is simple, If we had received a negative answer to Nico's question, surely we would sit down and discuss with the partners whether there was possible to participate. I can anticipate that the question was probably negative.
The decision of the Swiss contest has been a shared decision not with the chapters, but with the partners, which are directly involved in this national organization.
I agree that the European contest must be a decision taken by the chapters, but the National contest is a decision taken by the local chapter and the partners and they must decide the best solution to have a successful event.
Now Switzerland in a middle of a dispute: to comply with the decision of the chapters or to comply with the decision of the partners.
It seems to me honest to say that we would respect the decision of the partners for the Swiss contest because it is a local organization and the partners participate with their internal resources, we would respect the decision of the chapters for the European contest because it is a shared decision and there is no sense to have an independent decision.
Ilario
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Regarding point 1, if we accept images uploaded in July and August from Switzerland, how would we have the nerve to reject images uploaded from other countries during that time period? On the other hand, if we reject images from Switzerland uploaded in July/August for the European contest, people excluded will also think that is not fair.
BTW, someone said there were already pictures uploaded from Switzerland, but I could not find them. Can someone provide a link?
Best, Gonçalo
2011/7/5 Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org
Hello all,
It is wonderful we finally have a good conversation about this.
There are several reasons why we should have the same dates throughout Europe - we discussed those both in Berlin and on this mailing list. I will not bore anyone with them right now though, because it doesn't matter any more. I'd love to have this discussion in depth, but let's do that elsewhere (I would recommand though to read through the meeting minutes of Berlin).
The current situation is simple: Wikimedia Switzerland decided (and I still disagree with that strongly) to ignore the agreed timeframe - for whatever reason. Since the contest is now already ongoing for them, it doesn't matter much any more for the contest.
Besides the time frame, there is the issue of the upload pipeline. This is another topic we agreed on together - and also here there are very good (and obvious) reasons: uploading should be as easy as possible. Right now, the pipeline of WMCH required participants to register *both* on Wikimedia Commons and on their website, to upload the images through the regular Commons upload system, to manually tag them (not with any monument ID btw) and thén to mark them through the contest website. This is totally different from the intended and agreed pipeline, which is much more simple: Create an account on Commons, use the special, simplified upload form - enter the monument identifier and done. We will take care of the rest.
There are a few things we need to resolve:
- Which images are admissible for the European competition
- How can we simplify the uploading methods currently in place (which are
even more complicated than normal upload procedures.) 3. How do we communicate this all
For 1. I think that it doesn't help anyone to exclude images from Switzerland. However, the monuments uploaded through commons currently lack identifiers - as long as they miss those, they are not eligible. (But I assume that can be fixed). An alternative could be to only accept images uploaded between 1 and 30 september. Please note that it was already in the plan that it wouldn't matter to us *when* the photo was taken, but only when it was uploaded. I cannot make this decision by myself though.
For 2. I think it would be best if WMCH would simplify their procedures as much as possible. Not because we agreed, but because that improves participation. There will become tooling available for easier uploading but that will be become available at the agreed upon time schedule. We can't speed this up for you. You could consider hacking together a form like WMNL used last year to significantly simplify uploading. Please check the post mortem 2010 for more information.
For 3. I think it would help if we could consider July/August as a "silent start" - trying to persuade your partners to not advertize it too loudly until September 1. That way potential participants can enjoy the then available tooling and more easy upload system. I know this is uncomfortable, but I would really appreciate it if you could postpone publicizing as much as possible until September.
I hope that the hostile tone can be left behind - fights over independence and agreements will help nobody. Let's try to reduce damage and find a middle way.
Best regards,
Lodewijk
2011/7/5 Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 5:57 PM, GoEthe.wiki goethe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I think the point is: maybe it would also have advantages for other countries to do the contest in different times, duration, etc., but we decided as a group to have it simultaneously for logistic, promotional
and
fairness reasons.
And we have decided to have it in summer for the same reason.
It's not a question of advantage, it's a question for a better logistic, a better promotion and a better fairness reason.
The question is simple, If we had received a negative answer to Nico's question, surely we would sit down and discuss with the partners whether there was possible to participate. I can anticipate that the question was probably negative.
The decision of the Swiss contest has been a shared decision not with the chapters, but with the partners, which are directly involved in this national organization.
I agree that the European contest must be a decision taken by the chapters, but the National contest is a decision taken by the local chapter and the partners and they must decide the best solution to have a successful event.
Now Switzerland in a middle of a dispute: to comply with the decision of the chapters or to comply with the decision of the partners.
It seems to me honest to say that we would respect the decision of the partners for the Swiss contest because it is a local organization and the partners participate with their internal resources, we would respect the decision of the chapters for the European contest because it is a shared decision and there is no sense to have an independent decision.
Ilario
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Here : http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Selected_for_WLM_2011_CH
Ludovic
2011/7/6 GoEthe.wiki goethe.wiki@gmail.com
Regarding point 1, if we accept images uploaded in July and August from Switzerland, how would we have the nerve to reject images uploaded from other countries during that time period? On the other hand, if we reject images from Switzerland uploaded in July/August for the European contest, people excluded will also think that is not fair.
BTW, someone said there were already pictures uploaded from Switzerland, but I could not find them. Can someone provide a link?
Best, Gonçalo
2011/7/5 Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org
Hello all,
It is wonderful we finally have a good conversation about this.
There are several reasons why we should have the same dates throughout Europe - we discussed those both in Berlin and on this mailing list. I will not bore anyone with them right now though, because it doesn't matter any more. I'd love to have this discussion in depth, but let's do that elsewhere (I would recommand though to read through the meeting minutes of Berlin).
The current situation is simple: Wikimedia Switzerland decided (and I still disagree with that strongly) to ignore the agreed timeframe - for whatever reason. Since the contest is now already ongoing for them, it doesn't matter much any more for the contest.
Besides the time frame, there is the issue of the upload pipeline. This is another topic we agreed on together - and also here there are very good (and obvious) reasons: uploading should be as easy as possible. Right now, the pipeline of WMCH required participants to register *both* on Wikimedia Commons and on their website, to upload the images through the regular Commons upload system, to manually tag them (not with any monument ID btw) and thén to mark them through the contest website. This is totally different from the intended and agreed pipeline, which is much more simple: Create an account on Commons, use the special, simplified upload form - enter the monument identifier and done. We will take care of the rest.
There are a few things we need to resolve:
- Which images are admissible for the European competition
- How can we simplify the uploading methods currently in place (which are
even more complicated than normal upload procedures.) 3. How do we communicate this all
For 1. I think that it doesn't help anyone to exclude images from Switzerland. However, the monuments uploaded through commons currently lack identifiers - as long as they miss those, they are not eligible. (But I assume that can be fixed). An alternative could be to only accept images uploaded between 1 and 30 september. Please note that it was already in the plan that it wouldn't matter to us *when* the photo was taken, but only when it was uploaded. I cannot make this decision by myself though.
For 2. I think it would be best if WMCH would simplify their procedures as much as possible. Not because we agreed, but because that improves participation. There will become tooling available for easier uploading but that will be become available at the agreed upon time schedule. We can't speed this up for you. You could consider hacking together a form like WMNL used last year to significantly simplify uploading. Please check the post mortem 2010 for more information.
For 3. I think it would help if we could consider July/August as a "silent start" - trying to persuade your partners to not advertize it too loudly until September 1. That way potential participants can enjoy the then available tooling and more easy upload system. I know this is uncomfortable, but I would really appreciate it if you could postpone publicizing as much as possible until September.
I hope that the hostile tone can be left behind - fights over independence and agreements will help nobody. Let's try to reduce damage and find a middle way.
Best regards,
Lodewijk
2011/7/5 Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 5:57 PM, GoEthe.wiki goethe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I think the point is: maybe it would also have advantages for other countries to do the contest in different times, duration, etc., but we decided as a group to have it simultaneously for logistic, promotional
and
fairness reasons.
And we have decided to have it in summer for the same reason.
It's not a question of advantage, it's a question for a better logistic, a better promotion and a better fairness reason.
The question is simple, If we had received a negative answer to Nico's question, surely we would sit down and discuss with the partners whether there was possible to participate. I can anticipate that the question was probably negative.
The decision of the Swiss contest has been a shared decision not with the chapters, but with the partners, which are directly involved in this national organization.
I agree that the European contest must be a decision taken by the chapters, but the National contest is a decision taken by the local chapter and the partners and they must decide the best solution to have a successful event.
Now Switzerland in a middle of a dispute: to comply with the decision of the chapters or to comply with the decision of the partners.
It seems to me honest to say that we would respect the decision of the partners for the Swiss contest because it is a local organization and the partners participate with their internal resources, we would respect the decision of the chapters for the European contest because it is a shared decision and there is no sense to have an independent decision.
Ilario
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 12:41 PM, GoEthe.wiki goethe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Regarding point 1, if we accept images uploaded in July and August from Switzerland, how would we have the nerve to reject images uploaded from other countries during that time period? On the other hand, if we reject images from Switzerland uploaded in July/August for the European contest, people excluded will also think that is not fair.
BTW, someone said there were already pictures uploaded from Switzerland, but I could not find them. Can someone provide a link?
Best, Gonçalo
In addition there are at least 500 photos in my hand that I have not uploaded to wait the result of this dispute.
Consider that I have planned one day per week dedicated to this event to take picture and every week I have 200/300 photos to be uploaded. If I must wait September I need to upload more ore less 3000/4000 photos plus old photos still in my hard disk taken before June and not uploaded yet!
Ilario
I make photographies of monuments in Switzerland. I've began to upload. I've continue to make that.
The period of the contest it's not the main goal. The goal is to obtain new pictures.
Ludovic
2011/7/6 Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 12:41 PM, GoEthe.wiki goethe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Regarding point 1, if we accept images uploaded in July and August from Switzerland, how would we have the nerve to reject images uploaded from other countries during that time period? On the other hand, if we reject images from Switzerland uploaded in July/August for the European contest, people excluded will also think that is not fair.
BTW, someone said there were already pictures uploaded from Switzerland,
but
I could not find them. Can someone provide a link?
Best, Gonçalo
In addition there are at least 500 photos in my hand that I have not uploaded to wait the result of this dispute.
Consider that I have planned one day per week dedicated to this event to take picture and every week I have 200/300 photos to be uploaded. If I must wait September I need to upload more ore less 3000/4000 photos plus old photos still in my hard disk taken before June and not uploaded yet!
Ilario
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Hello,
Thank you for the link, the photos look great, every one of them. But - I don't want to be rude - as they are not uploaded in september 2011, they cannot take part in the *international* contest, am I right?
Kind regards Ziko
2011/7/6 Ludovic Péron ludovic.peron@gmail.com:
I make photographies of monuments in Switzerland. I've began to upload. I've continue to make that.
The period of the contest it's not the main goal. The goal is to obtain new pictures.
Ludovic
2011/7/6 Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 12:41 PM, GoEthe.wiki goethe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Regarding point 1, if we accept images uploaded in July and August from Switzerland, how would we have the nerve to reject images uploaded from other countries during that time period? On the other hand, if we reject images from Switzerland uploaded in July/August for the European contest, people excluded will also think that is not fair.
BTW, someone said there were already pictures uploaded from Switzerland, but I could not find them. Can someone provide a link?
Best, Gonçalo
In addition there are at least 500 photos in my hand that I have not uploaded to wait the result of this dispute.
Consider that I have planned one day per week dedicated to this event to take picture and every week I have 200/300 photos to be uploaded. If I must wait September I need to upload more ore less 3000/4000 photos plus old photos still in my hard disk taken before June and not uploaded yet!
Ilario
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
yes, tt's right. And what is the problem ?
Ludovic
2011/7/6 Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@googlemail.com
Hello,
Thank you for the link, the photos look great, every one of them. But
- I don't want to be rude - as they are not uploaded in september
2011, they cannot take part in the *international* contest, am I right?
Kind regards Ziko
2011/7/6 Ludovic Péron ludovic.peron@gmail.com:
I make photographies of monuments in Switzerland. I've began to upload.
I've
continue to make that.
The period of the contest it's not the main goal. The goal is to obtain
new
pictures.
Ludovic
2011/7/6 Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 12:41 PM, GoEthe.wiki goethe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Regarding point 1, if we accept images uploaded in July and August
from
Switzerland, how would we have the nerve to reject images uploaded
from
other countries during that time period? On the other hand, if we
reject
images from Switzerland uploaded in July/August for the European contest, people excluded will also think that is not fair.
BTW, someone said there were already pictures uploaded from
Switzerland,
but I could not find them. Can someone provide a link?
Best, Gonçalo
In addition there are at least 500 photos in my hand that I have not uploaded to wait the result of this dispute.
Consider that I have planned one day per week dedicated to this event to take picture and every week I have 200/300 photos to be uploaded. If I must wait September I need to upload more ore less 3000/4000 photos plus old photos still in my hard disk taken before June and not uploaded yet!
Ilario
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
-- Ziko van Dijk The Netherlands http://zikoblog.wordpress.com/
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Hum, maybe we should remember than most of us are not native english speaker and than it is difficult to really evaluate the tone of others message! :-)
Yes we decide from a long time than the swiss contest will start in july, even before the dicusions about european contest really start. So, for this year we won't have swiss pictures in the contest? And? What is the real problem? Promotion of commons and heritage are the primary objectives, the contest is just a mean, not an end.
Participation of the swiss pictures and communication are false problems, no one wil do "european" communication, it will be the sum of national communication.
In switzerland we will communicate that the contest is european, and that's all, honestly people don't care about the length of the contestvand the exact number of participating country.
After the contest, it will be the same, nobody will remember the format of the contest, but we will communicate about the number of pictures upload, and at this moment nobody will come to argue that swiss pictures doesn't count :-)
The fact that we already start doesn't mean that we won't help to organize the contest! Btw, who's in charge of looking sponsor from camera companies? Sony has a special program for that, if nobody try canon or nikon or other brand for the moment, I could try Sony CH
Charles
Le 6 juil. 2011 à 22:48, Ludovic Péron ludovic.peron@gmail.com a écrit :
yes, tt's right. And what is the problem ?
Ludovic
2011/7/6 Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@googlemail.com Hello,
Thank you for the link, the photos look great, every one of them. But
- I don't want to be rude - as they are not uploaded in september
2011, they cannot take part in the *international* contest, am I right?
Kind regards Ziko
2011/7/6 Ludovic Péron ludovic.peron@gmail.com:
I make photographies of monuments in Switzerland. I've began to upload. I've continue to make that.
The period of the contest it's not the main goal. The goal is to obtain new pictures.
Ludovic
2011/7/6 Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 12:41 PM, GoEthe.wiki goethe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Regarding point 1, if we accept images uploaded in July and August from Switzerland, how would we have the nerve to reject images uploaded from other countries during that time period? On the other hand, if we reject images from Switzerland uploaded in July/August for the European contest, people excluded will also think that is not fair.
BTW, someone said there were already pictures uploaded from Switzerland, but I could not find them. Can someone provide a link?
Best, Gonçalo
In addition there are at least 500 photos in my hand that I have not uploaded to wait the result of this dispute.
Consider that I have planned one day per week dedicated to this event to take picture and every week I have 200/300 photos to be uploaded. If I must wait September I need to upload more ore less 3000/4000 photos plus old photos still in my hard disk taken before June and not uploaded yet!
Ilario
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
-- Ziko van Dijk The Netherlands http://zikoblog.wordpress.com/
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
On 7/6/11, Charles Andrès charles.andres@wikimedia.ch wrote:
Participation of the swiss pictures and communication are false problems, no one wil do "european" communication, it will be the sum of national communication.
In switzerland we will communicate that the contest is european, and that's all, honestly people don't care about the length of the contestvand the exact number of participating country.
After the contest, it will be the same, nobody will remember the format of the contest, but we will communicate about the number of pictures upload, and at this moment nobody will come to argue that swiss pictures doesn't count :-)
The fact that we already start doesn't mean that we won't help to organize the contest! Btw, who's in charge of looking sponsor from camera companies? Sony has a special program for that, if nobody try canon or nikon or other brand for the moment, I could try Sony CH
As a general thing, I think now is a good time to advertise WLM to the general public. People tend to travel more in July and August, and someone may be interested in making a small detour to take a photo of a monument in a small village but they wouldn't be so likely to travel 200 km on a weekend in September. My feeling is that large cities and famous landmarks are already well covered in Commons, but less known monuments in smaller places are not. Then, I don't see a big problem in waiting until September to upload the pics. Cruccone
I agree with this. We need a little bit of a side-handbook for the insiders who want to do this. Right now for the public, the official line is "take a picture of the monuments near you!". This is the easiest and also the best way to get these people on board and contributing to Wikipedia and/or Wikimedia Commons. That said, there are many of us and other Wikipedians as insiders who would also enjoy participating in the competitions of other countries. In this case, we need to be able to look up the monument numbers to use when uploading. Right now that information is on the native wikipedias and in the native language. We should have a page on commons that can be translated to all languages called "How to find the monument number" or "How to find the heritage site number" or some such thing.
I have created a "Wikipedia:Wiki Loves Monuments 2011" page on the English Wikipedia that can be used as a portal to the native projects where that information on how to look up the monument number can be stored. I put all the interwiki links in there that I could find. I also think we should make interwiki links to the "National Heritage Site" page in the main namespace. This can be used as a portal to the lists of numbers.
Jane
2011/7/7 Marco Chiesa chiesa.marco@gmail.com
On 7/6/11, Charles Andrès charles.andres@wikimedia.ch wrote:
Participation of the swiss pictures and communication are false problems,
no
one wil do "european" communication, it will be the sum of national communication.
In switzerland we will communicate that the contest is european, and
that's
all, honestly people don't care about the length of the contestvand the exact number of participating country.
After the contest, it will be the same, nobody will remember the format
of
the contest, but we will communicate about the number of pictures upload, and at this moment nobody will come to argue that swiss pictures doesn't count :-)
The fact that we already start doesn't mean that we won't help to
organize
the contest! Btw, who's in charge of looking sponsor from camera
companies?
Sony has a special program for that, if nobody try canon or nikon or
other
brand for the moment, I could try Sony CH
As a general thing, I think now is a good time to advertise WLM to the general public. People tend to travel more in July and August, and someone may be interested in making a small detour to take a photo of a monument in a small village but they wouldn't be so likely to travel 200 km on a weekend in September. My feeling is that large cities and famous landmarks are already well covered in Commons, but less known monuments in smaller places are not. Then, I don't see a big problem in waiting until September to upload the pics. Cruccone
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com wrote:
I agree with this. We need a little bit of a side-handbook for the insiders who want to do this. Right now for the public, the official line is "take a picture of the monuments near you!". This is the easiest and also the best way to get these people on board and contributing to Wikipedia and/or Wikimedia Commons. That said, there are many of us and other Wikipedians as insiders who would also enjoy participating in the competitions of other countries. In this case, we need to be able to look up the monument numbers to use when uploading. Right now that information is on the native
It could be interesting to involve all persons in the countries which are not participating to this event.
For example I have invited Italian wikipedians living near the border to come in Switzerland to take pictures if they cannot participate for the well known problems of the law in Italy.
It would be sufficient to take two/three days, visit towns in Switzerland and take pictures.
Ilario
Hello,
Nice ideas of collaborating cross the borders; I have considered to approach the DE-NL Euregio, but I am afraid that quite few Wikipedians live here.
Kind regards Ziko
2011/7/7 Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com wrote:
I agree with this. We need a little bit of a side-handbook for the insiders who want to do this. Right now for the public, the official line is "take a picture of the monuments near you!". This is the easiest and also the best way to get these people on board and contributing to Wikipedia and/or Wikimedia Commons. That said, there are many of us and other Wikipedians as insiders who would also enjoy participating in the competitions of other countries. In this case, we need to be able to look up the monument numbers to use when uploading. Right now that information is on the native
It could be interesting to involve all persons in the countries which are not participating to this event.
For example I have invited Italian wikipedians living near the border to come in Switzerland to take pictures if they cannot participate for the well known problems of the law in Italy.
It would be sufficient to take two/three days, visit towns in Switzerland and take pictures.
Ilario
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
I'm also agree with Marco. According to Jane idea : Is possible to renew the main page of http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu/ in order to facilite the monument localitzation (f.e.: showing countries/zones like a gallery and cliking on it redired to monuments lists on local web or in WP/Commons)
Mafoso. Al 07/07/2011 12:38, En/na Jane Darnell ha escrit:
I agree with this. We need a little bit of a side-handbook for the insiders who want to do this. Right now for the public, the official line is "take a picture of the monuments near you!". This is the easiest and also the best way to get these people on board and contributing to Wikipedia and/or Wikimedia Commons. That said, there are many of us and other Wikipedians as insiders who would also enjoy participating in the competitions of other countries. In this case, we need to be able to look up the monument numbers to use when uploading. Right now that information is on the native wikipedias and in the native language. We should have a page on commons that can be translated to all languages called "How to find the monument number" or "How to find the heritage site number" or some such thing.
I have created a "Wikipedia:Wiki Loves Monuments 2011" page on the English Wikipedia that can be used as a portal to the native projects where that information on how to look up the monument number can be stored. I put all the interwiki links in there that I could find. I also think we should make interwiki links to the "National Heritage Site" page in the main namespace. This can be used as a portal to the lists of numbers.
Jane
2011/7/7 Marco Chiesa <chiesa.marco@gmail.com mailto:chiesa.marco@gmail.com>
On 7/6/11, Charles Andrès <charles.andres@wikimedia.ch <mailto:charles.andres@wikimedia.ch>> wrote: > > Participation of the swiss pictures and communication are false problems, no > one wil do "european" communication, it will be the sum of national > communication. > > In switzerland we will communicate that the contest is european, and that's > all, honestly people don't care about the length of the contestvand the > exact number of participating country. > > After the contest, it will be the same, nobody will remember the format of > the contest, but we will communicate about the number of pictures upload, > and at this moment nobody will come to argue that swiss pictures doesn't > count :-) > > The fact that we already start doesn't mean that we won't help to organize > the contest! Btw, who's in charge of looking sponsor from camera companies? > Sony has a special program for that, if nobody try canon or nikon or other > brand for the moment, I could try Sony CH > As a general thing, I think now is a good time to advertise WLM to the general public. People tend to travel more in July and August, and someone may be interested in making a small detour to take a photo of a monument in a small village but they wouldn't be so likely to travel 200 km on a weekend in September. My feeling is that large cities and famous landmarks are already well covered in Commons, but less known monuments in smaller places are not. Then, I don't see a big problem in waiting until September to upload the pics. Cruccone _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Hi Marc,
like discussed earlier, we will transform that page into a blog with some pages with more information. If someone can then develop a plugin to show monuments on a map there, that could probably be implemented.
I am currently waiting for this to happen though.
Lodewijk
Am 7. Juli 2011 13:18:52 UTC+2 schrieb Marc Fontdevila < marc.fontdevila@gmail.com>:
** I'm also agree with Marco. According to Jane idea : Is possible to renew the main page of http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu/ in order to facilite the monument localitzation (f.e.: showing countries/zones like a gallery and cliking on it redired to monuments lists on local web or in WP/Commons)
Mafoso. Al 07/07/2011 12:38, En/na Jane Darnell ha escrit:
I agree with this. We need a little bit of a side-handbook for the insiders who want to do this. Right now for the public, the official line is "take a picture of the monuments near you!". This is the easiest and also the best way to get these people on board and contributing to Wikipedia and/or Wikimedia Commons. That said, there are many of us and other Wikipedians as insiders who would also enjoy participating in the competitions of other countries. In this case, we need to be able to look up the monument numbers to use when uploading. Right now that information is on the native wikipedias and in the native language. We should have a page on commons that can be translated to all languages called "How to find the monument number" or "How to find the heritage site number" or some such thing.
I have created a "Wikipedia:Wiki Loves Monuments 2011" page on the English Wikipedia that can be used as a portal to the native projects where that information on how to look up the monument number can be stored. I put all the interwiki links in there that I could find. I also think we should make interwiki links to the "National Heritage Site" page in the main namespace. This can be used as a portal to the lists of numbers.
Jane
2011/7/7 Marco Chiesa chiesa.marco@gmail.com
On 7/6/11, Charles Andrès charles.andres@wikimedia.ch wrote:
Participation of the swiss pictures and communication are false
problems, no
one wil do "european" communication, it will be the sum of national communication.
In switzerland we will communicate that the contest is european, and
that's
all, honestly people don't care about the length of the contestvand the exact number of participating country.
After the contest, it will be the same, nobody will remember the format
of
the contest, but we will communicate about the number of pictures
upload,
and at this moment nobody will come to argue that swiss pictures doesn't count :-)
The fact that we already start doesn't mean that we won't help to
organize
the contest! Btw, who's in charge of looking sponsor from camera
companies?
Sony has a special program for that, if nobody try canon or nikon or
other
brand for the moment, I could try Sony CH
As a general thing, I think now is a good time to advertise WLM to the general public. People tend to travel more in July and August, and someone may be interested in making a small detour to take a photo of a monument in a small village but they wouldn't be so likely to travel 200 km on a weekend in September. My feeling is that large cities and famous landmarks are already well covered in Commons, but less known monuments in smaller places are not. Then, I don't see a big problem in waiting until September to upload the pics. Cruccone
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing listWikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonumentshttp://www.wi...
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Hi Lodewijk (and all) I've sent you a quick draf you of the idea I had in mind ... on the website of Portugal is a really good plugin about monuments locator, might it could be easy to adapt.(http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org.pt/monumentos.php)
Mafoso
Al 09/07/2011 23:54, En/na effe iets anders ha escrit:
Hi Marc,
like discussed earlier, we will transform that page into a blog with some pages with more information. If someone can then develop a plugin to show monuments on a map there, that could probably be implemented.
I am currently waiting for this to happen though.
Lodewijk
Am 7. Juli 2011 13:18:52 UTC+2 schrieb Marc Fontdevila <marc.fontdevila@gmail.com mailto:marc.fontdevila@gmail.com>:
I'm also agree with Marco. According to Jane idea : Is possible to renew the main page of http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu/ in order to facilite the monument localitzation (f.e.: showing countries/zones like a gallery and cliking on it redired to monuments lists on local web or in WP/Commons) Mafoso. Al 07/07/2011 12:38, En/na Jane Darnell ha escrit:I agree with this. We need a little bit of a side-handbook for the insiders who want to do this. Right now for the public, the official line is "take a picture of the monuments near you!". This is the easiest and also the best way to get these people on board and contributing to Wikipedia and/or Wikimedia Commons. That said, there are many of us and other Wikipedians as insiders who would also enjoy participating in the competitions of other countries. In this case, we need to be able to look up the monument numbers to use when uploading. Right now that information is on the native wikipedias and in the native language. We should have a page on commons that can be translated to all languages called "How to find the monument number" or "How to find the heritage site number" or some such thing. I have created a "Wikipedia:Wiki Loves Monuments 2011" page on the English Wikipedia that can be used as a portal to the native projects where that information on how to look up the monument number can be stored. I put all the interwiki links in there that I could find. I also think we should make interwiki links to the "National Heritage Site" page in the main namespace. This can be used as a portal to the lists of numbers. Jane 2011/7/7 Marco Chiesa <chiesa.marco@gmail.com <mailto:chiesa.marco@gmail.com>> On 7/6/11, Charles Andrès <charles.andres@wikimedia.ch <mailto:charles.andres@wikimedia.ch>> wrote: > > Participation of the swiss pictures and communication are false problems, no > one wil do "european" communication, it will be the sum of national > communication. > > In switzerland we will communicate that the contest is european, and that's > all, honestly people don't care about the length of the contestvand the > exact number of participating country. > > After the contest, it will be the same, nobody will remember the format of > the contest, but we will communicate about the number of pictures upload, > and at this moment nobody will come to argue that swiss pictures doesn't > count :-) > > The fact that we already start doesn't mean that we won't help to organize > the contest! Btw, who's in charge of looking sponsor from camera companies? > Sony has a special program for that, if nobody try canon or nikon or other > brand for the moment, I could try Sony CH > As a general thing, I think now is a good time to advertise WLM to the general public. People tend to travel more in July and August, and someone may be interested in making a small detour to take a photo of a monument in a small village but they wouldn't be so likely to travel 200 km on a weekend in September. My feeling is that large cities and famous landmarks are already well covered in Commons, but less known monuments in smaller places are not. Then, I don't see a big problem in waiting until September to upload the pics. Cruccone _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu_______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Hi everyone,
Check out http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/07/07/wikilovesmonuments/ (thank you Lodewijk!).
I like what Jane mentioned:
Op 7-7-2011 12:38, Jane Darnell schreef:
I have created a "Wikipedia:Wiki Loves Monuments 2011" page on the English Wikipedia that can be used as a portal to the native projects where that information on how to look up the monument number can be stored. I put all the interwiki links in there that I could find. I also think we should make interwiki links to the "National Heritage Site" page in the main namespace. This can be used as a portal to the lists of numbers.
Let's try to get a page about Wiki Loves Monuments in as many language Wikipedia's as possible and interwiki these pages together :-) Maybe some part about the European aspect and a part about the more local things of a certain language. Would be cool to have a long list!
Maarten
Hey Maarten and Lodewijk,
Nice to see the contest out on the WMF blog, but the link from the images to wikilovesmonuments.eu is broken. i think you need to add http:// in front of the address to get it interpreted correctly by all browsers.
Regards, Strainu
2011/7/7 Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl:
Hi everyone,
Check out http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/07/07/wikilovesmonuments/ (thank you Lodewijk!).
I like what Jane mentioned:
Op 7-7-2011 12:38, Jane Darnell schreef:
I have created a "Wikipedia:Wiki Loves Monuments 2011" page on the English Wikipedia that can be used as a portal to the native projects where that information on how to look up the monument number can be stored. I put all the interwiki links in there that I could find. I also think we should make interwiki links to the "National Heritage Site" page in the main namespace. This can be used as a portal to the lists of numbers.
Let's try to get a page about Wiki Loves Monuments in as many language Wikipedia's as possible and interwiki these pages together :-) Maybe some part about the European aspect and a part about the more local things of a certain language. Would be cool to have a long list!
Maarten
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Hi Strainu,
thanks for noting. We are aware of it, and have mentioned that they are broken. Unfortunately they haven't seen the opportunity yet to fix it.
Best,
Lodewijk
2011/7/8 Strainu strainu10@gmail.com
Hey Maarten and Lodewijk,
Nice to see the contest out on the WMF blog, but the link from the images to wikilovesmonuments.eu is broken. i think you need to add http:// in front of the address to get it interpreted correctly by all browsers.
Regards, Strainu
2011/7/7 Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl:
Hi everyone,
Check out http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/07/07/wikilovesmonuments/ (thank you Lodewijk!).
I like what Jane mentioned:
Op 7-7-2011 12:38, Jane Darnell schreef:
I have created a "Wikipedia:Wiki Loves Monuments 2011" page on the English Wikipedia that can be used as a portal to the native projects where that information on how to look up the monument number can be stored. I put all the interwiki links in there that I could find. I also think we should make interwiki links to the "National Heritage Site" page in the main namespace. This can be used as a portal to the lists of numbers.
Let's try to get a page about Wiki Loves Monuments in as many language Wikipedia's as possible and interwiki these pages together :-) Maybe some part about the European aspect and a part about the more local things of a certain language. Would be cool to have a long list!
Maarten
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Hi Everyone, Continuing with my "interwiki" effort on the English Wikipedia that I started yesterday, I have decided (totally on my own) to name these objects "National Heritage Sites" rather than "Monuments". My reasoning is because on the English wikipedia there is a whole categorization structure already in place for Heritage sites and the one for Monuments are now for statues and war memorials(!!).
This gets confusing fast, so let me explain with the following examples:
1) The "White House" is a US National Heritage Site in Washington, DC. 2) The "Witte Huis" is a Dutch National Heritage Site in Rotterdam.
The term National Heritage Site should be available as a generic concept, and then per country as a [[National Heritage Site (Country name)]]. The term "Rijksmonument" is now titled as page "Rijksmonument" in the English Wikipedia, but it should also be redirected from [[National Heritage Site (Netherlands)]]. The same holds for pages about each country.
Ideally, per participating country, we should have pages on wikipedia for each [[National Heritage Site (Country name)]], as well as a concept page [[National Heritage Site]]. In Dutch this would I suppose not be [[Nationale Rijksmonument]], but something like [[Nationale Erfgoed Object]].
Following this logic, the White House should be listed on the English Wikipedia as [[National Heritage Site (US)]], and the Witte Huis as [[National Heritage Site (Netherlands)]]. In the Dutch Wikipedia, the White House is a [[Nationale Erfgoed Object (US)]] and the Witte Huis is a [[Rijksmonument]].
Suggestions and comments welcome!! Jane
2011/7/7 Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl
Hi everyone,
Check out http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/07/07/wikilovesmonuments/ (thank you Lodewijk!).
I like what Jane mentioned:
Op 7-7-2011 12:38, Jane Darnell schreef:
I have created a "Wikipedia:Wiki Loves Monuments 2011" page on the English Wikipedia that can be used as a portal to the native projects where that information on how to look up the monument number can be stored. I put all the interwiki links in there that I could find. I also think we should make interwiki links to the "National Heritage Site" page in the main namespace. This can be used as a portal to the lists of numbers.
Let's try to get a page about Wiki Loves Monuments in as many language Wikipedia's as possible and interwiki these pages together :-) Maybe some part about the European aspect and a part about the more local things of a certain language. Would be cool to have a long list!
Maarten
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Hi Jane (Everyone),
In Portugal (and the portuguese Wikipedia), it can also be confusing. In sum (and I hope I don't make many mistakes), we have "Património Cultural" (Cultural Heritage http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrim%C3%B4nio_cultural) that then divides into several categories including "Património Edificado" (Built heritage http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrim%C3%B3nio_edificado_em_Portugal) which then further divides into Monuments, "Conjuntos" (a group of significant structures) and "Sítios" (Places). Our lists include all Built heritage and is then classified according to importance into World Heritage, National Monuments, Imóvel de Interesse Público (Public interest site) and Imóvel de Interesse Municipal (site of interest for the municipality). See http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classifica%C3%A7%C3%A3o_do_patrim%C3%B3nio_port... .
Gonçalo
2011/7/8 Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com
Hi Everyone, Continuing with my "interwiki" effort on the English Wikipedia that I started yesterday, I have decided (totally on my own) to name these objects "National Heritage Sites" rather than "Monuments". My reasoning is because on the English wikipedia there is a whole categorization structure already in place for Heritage sites and the one for Monuments are now for statues and war memorials(!!).
This gets confusing fast, so let me explain with the following examples:
- The "White House" is a US National Heritage Site in Washington, DC.
- The "Witte Huis" is a Dutch National Heritage Site in Rotterdam.
The term National Heritage Site should be available as a generic concept, and then per country as a [[National Heritage Site (Country name)]]. The term "Rijksmonument" is now titled as page "Rijksmonument" in the English Wikipedia, but it should also be redirected from [[National Heritage Site (Netherlands)]]. The same holds for pages about each country.
Ideally, per participating country, we should have pages on wikipedia for each [[National Heritage Site (Country name)]], as well as a concept page [[National Heritage Site]]. In Dutch this would I suppose not be [[Nationale Rijksmonument]], but something like [[Nationale Erfgoed Object]].
Following this logic, the White House should be listed on the English Wikipedia as [[National Heritage Site (US)]], and the Witte Huis as [[National Heritage Site (Netherlands)]]. In the Dutch Wikipedia, the White House is a [[Nationale Erfgoed Object (US)]] and the Witte Huis is a [[Rijksmonument]].
Suggestions and comments welcome!! Jane
2011/7/7 Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl
Hi everyone,
Check out http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/07/07/wikilovesmonuments/ (thank you Lodewijk!).
I like what Jane mentioned:
Op 7-7-2011 12:38, Jane Darnell schreef:
I have created a "Wikipedia:Wiki Loves Monuments 2011" page on the English Wikipedia that can be used as a portal to the native projects where that information on how to look up the monument number can be stored. I put all the interwiki links in there that I could find. I also think we should make interwiki links to the "National Heritage Site" page in the main namespace. This can be used as a portal to the lists of numbers.
Let's try to get a page about Wiki Loves Monuments in as many language Wikipedia's as possible and interwiki these pages together :-) Maybe some part about the European aspect and a part about the more local things of a certain language. Would be cool to have a long list!
Maarten
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Terminology around monuments can be confusing and variable in different languages. There is a thesaurus of European Heritage Network that can be useful [1]. I think the term that adjusts it more appropiate is "monumental heritage", but each Wikipedia must follow its own naming conventions.
[1] http://thesaurus.european-heritage.net/sdx/herein/thesaurus/consult.xsp?nr=1...
Vicenç
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 12:27:12 +0200 From: jane023@gmail.com To: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Blogs and interwiki's
Hi Everyone,Continuing with my "interwiki" effort on the English Wikipedia that I started yesterday, I have decided (totally on my own) to name these objects "National Heritage Sites" rather than "Monuments". My reasoning is because on the English wikipedia there is a whole categorization structure already in place for Heritage sites and the one for Monuments are now for statues and war memorials(!!).
This gets confusing fast, so let me explain with the following examples: 1) The "White House" is a US National Heritage Site in Washington, DC. 2) The "Witte Huis" is a Dutch National Heritage Site in Rotterdam.
The term National Heritage Site should be available as a generic concept, and then per country as a [[National Heritage Site (Country name)]]. The term "Rijksmonument" is now titled as page "Rijksmonument" in the English Wikipedia, but it should also be redirected from [[National Heritage Site (Netherlands)]]. The same holds for pages about each country.
Ideally, per participating country, we should have pages on wikipedia for each [[National Heritage Site (Country name)]], as well as a concept page [[National Heritage Site]]. In Dutch this would I suppose not be [[Nationale Rijksmonument]], but something like [[Nationale Erfgoed Object]].
Following this logic, the White House should be listed on the English Wikipedia as [[National Heritage Site (US)]], and the Witte Huis as [[National Heritage Site (Netherlands)]]. In the Dutch Wikipedia, the White House is a [[Nationale Erfgoed Object (US)]] and the Witte Huis is a [[Rijksmonument]].
Suggestions and comments welcome!!Jane 2011/7/7 Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl
Hi everyone,
Check out http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/07/07/wikilovesmonuments/
(thank you Lodewijk!).
I like what Jane mentioned:
Op 7-7-2011 12:38, Jane Darnell schreef:
I have created a "Wikipedia:Wiki Loves Monuments 2011" page on the
English Wikipedia that can be used as a portal to the native projects
where that information on how to look up the monument number can be
stored. I put all the interwiki links in there that I could find. I
also think we should make interwiki links to the "National Heritage
Site" page in the main namespace. This can be used as a portal to the
lists of numbers.
Let's try to get a page about Wiki Loves Monuments in as many language
Wikipedia's as possible and interwiki these pages together :-)
Maybe some part about the European aspect and a part about the more
local things of a certain language. Would be cool to have a long list!
Maarten
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Ilario, That is fantastic that you have all of those pictures! I am not an expert on mass uploading, but I feel sure there are people out there who can help you prepare a mass upload in September.
I have used the Commonist tool for groups of about 20 pictures, and the way I prepare is to rename the photo's soon after I take them with the proper name and address of the object. Later I then use Commonist for the uploading and just copy-paste the information. For this contest, you should include the monument number. If you prepare all of your photos this way, then in September you can mass upload using the name of the file as the description, and the monument number as a tag. You need a simpler version of Commonist for this I think that takes the info directly from the file name or some text file that you have prepared beforehand.
It would be great if we could make a "mass-upload-tool" for people like you, because I know there are lots of people out there who have the pictures, but just don't know how to go about uploading them in bulk. Jane
2011/7/6 Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 12:41 PM, GoEthe.wiki goethe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Regarding point 1, if we accept images uploaded in July and August from Switzerland, how would we have the nerve to reject images uploaded from other countries during that time period? On the other hand, if we reject images from Switzerland uploaded in July/August for the European contest, people excluded will also think that is not fair.
BTW, someone said there were already pictures uploaded from Switzerland,
but
I could not find them. Can someone provide a link?
Best, Gonçalo
In addition there are at least 500 photos in my hand that I have not uploaded to wait the result of this dispute.
Consider that I have planned one day per week dedicated to this event to take picture and every week I have 200/300 photos to be uploaded. If I must wait September I need to upload more ore less 3000/4000 photos plus old photos still in my hard disk taken before June and not uploaded yet!
Ilario
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
On 04.07.2011 21:36, Maarten Dammers wrote:
Hi everyone,
To my regret WMCH decided to ignore the things we agreed on in Berlin [1] and started with Wiki Loves Monuments early [2]. I consider this very disrespectful and I'm really pissed off about this. WMCH wasn't able to come to the Berlin meeting but received all results. We talked about this earlier [3], but WMCH failed to respond to the last emails and instead apparently just started.
I am really unhappy with this situation.
Maarten
Dear Maarten, yes, Wikimedia CH has started the process as announced in the press releases published the 31st May.
The 1st May Nico has announced that Wikimedia CH was already in a good point to start the contest in summer (http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikilovesmonuments/2011-May/000311.html).
I put here what Nico has written: "For the second topic, the point is that we will start our local contest in summer already and i don't want to have pictures refused on the European contest because they where not loaded in September only".
This topic has had no reply, nothing saying to wait the meeting in Berlin, nothing saying that the format used by Wikimedia CH was inadequate. It means that Wikimedia CH has continued to work on that.
When Nico has written (1st May, the meeting in Berlin is started the 12 May) we were at this point:
a) institutional partners (and most of them to be considered *important* partners) already informed about the start in July with GSK with a press release ready to be published b) project partners (like Seniorweb) informed about the start in July c) the General Assembly already informed the 30th April about the start in July d) all media already contacted and informed about the start in July e) the selection of the jury already in an on going process
Sorry but we cannot write to all persons saying: "Please be kind but we have made a mistake, the Swiss contest will have place in September because someone in Berlin has decided differently".
In Berlin the participants have decided to have the European contest in September or to have the *Swiss contest in September*? I think that all countries are free to organize their own contest as better is for their environment, the European contest is different, this is organized with the participation of all countries (and I wish that this was happening) and with well defined rules for all countries. In this case if a country will follow these rules, it can participate, otherwise it will be put out for the European contest.
So it means that if the Swiss contest will have place in Summer there is no problem, because it's a Swiss contest. Switzerland could participate to the European contest uploading photos in September.
We are not involving European institutions or European medias or stealing opportunities to other countries. The Swiss contest is strictly involving Swiss partners.
In my opinion this misunderstanding has happened because it's not clear when finish the national contest and when start the European contest, where finish the organization in charge of each country and where start that in charge of the team who is organizing the European contest. So, put here (http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu/) a well defined rule to take part in the event and defining what is in charge of each country in order to make clear the conditions to participate and to give to every persons the possibility to decide if it makes sense.
Ilario
Hi Ilario,
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 12:11 AM, Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry but we cannot write to all persons saying: "Please be kind but we have made a mistake, the Swiss contest will have place in September because someone in Berlin has decided differently".
If you phrased it that way, I agree with you. But if you told them that you were part of a European contest (with more than 15 nations involved at that time, and the European council and Europeana as partners, come on) I don't think it'd been a huge problem.
In Berlin the participants have decided to have the European contest in September or to have the *Swiss contest in September*? I think that all countries are free to organize their own contest as better is for their environment, the European contest is different, this is organized with the participation of all countries (and I wish that this was happening) and with well defined rules for all countries. In this case if a country will follow these rules, it can participate, otherwise it will be put out for the European contest.
We decided to have WLM in September, which means that the pictures eligible have to be uploaded in September which means that the national contests have to be held in September as well. There is no European contest like there are the national ones: the European contest consists of nothing more than a jury of eight people picking the winners out of each country's top ten.
So it means that if the Swiss contest will have place in Summer there is no problem, because it's a Swiss contest. Switzerland could participate to the European contest uploading photos in September.
No, you can't participate in the European contest by just uploading pictures in September, since you need your local jury to pick the best ten pictures and submit them to the European jury.
In my opinion this misunderstanding has happened because it's not clear
when finish the national contest and when start the European contest, where finish the organization in charge of each country and where start that in charge of the team who is organizing the European contest. So, put here (http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu/) a well defined rule to take part in the event and defining what is in charge of each country in order to make clear the conditions to participate and to give to every persons the possibility to decide if it makes sense.
The notes from the Berlin meeting ( https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monum...) clearly state that the contest runs from September 1st to September 30th, the national jury will have to submit the top ten pictures by October 31st, the European jury than starts their work and will be done until November 21st, so we can announce the winners in early December.
If this Timeline was not clear to you, you could have asked on the mailing list or contacted someone who was in Berlin, but saying there is no timeline or it's not clear who's in charge of what is just not true. The "Result wrapup" alone gives you a pretty good idea how the contest is/was supposed to be held.
Best regards,
Kilian
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 9:00 AM, Kilian Kluge kilian@k-kluge.de wrote:
The notes from the Berlin meeting (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monum...) clearly state that the contest runs from September 1st to September 30th, the national jury will have to submit the top ten pictures by October 31st, the European jury than starts their work and will be done until November 21st, so we can announce the winners in early December.
Swiss will have the national jury and this jury can select some photos for National prizes and some other photos like "special prizes" from those uploaded in September for example.
The problem is only a problem of organization.
The Swiss jury will operate only in September and not all time.
Ilario
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