Steward Revi wrote:
In my personal opinion, We the Stewards are only authorized to act on a community
consensus and are not responsible to decide whether WMF principles, practices, and/or
rules are violated.
(Again, I am not speaking on behalf of Stewards, just my POV.)
On the whole, this is true. However, the stewards are authorized to decide on their own
whether short-term emergency intervention is warranted in an individual project. And the
stewards, more than the Board or T&S, are traveling around different projects looking
at things and seeing what's going on. At minimum, if the stewards see something that
seems to be substantially and clearly outside of norms, at minimum they are in a position
to report it to T&S and the Board, and in practice, if necessary, they can make a
short-term intervention. But I will quickly concede that the latter possibility only kicks
in when there are truly dire circumstances in play.
Steven
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Today's Topics:
1. Croatian Wikipedia (Steven White)
2. Re: Croatian Wikipedia (Steven White)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 14:55:03 +0000
From: Steven White <Koala19890(a)hotmail.com>
To: "WMF LangCom (public)" <langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
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The former Yugoslavia is one of the most difficult spots in the entire WMF universe.
If we were starting from scratch right now, the tradeoff, as always, would be whether
Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin are different enough to warrant separate
projects, or whether a single Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia could cover the whole ground. The
current policy has potentially contradictory biases. On one hand, there is a bias TOWARD
projects in individual languages, and AWAY from projects in macrolanguages. (In this case,
Serbo-Croatian is a macrolanguage, and the others are considered constituent languages of
that macrolanguage.) On the other hand, there is a bias TOWARD consolidated projects where
the languages are mutually comprehensible, both to help prevent POV bias and to reduce
unnecessary duplication. I frankly don't know which way we'd go if we were
starting from scratch now.
(Technical interlude: the Cyrillic-Latin converters work just fine. That does not need to
be a consideration for any of this.)
But in any event, we most assuredly are not starting from scratch. Each of these projects
already has a community, a political point of view, and a bias. Those conflict IRL, and
they conflict here, too. Again, if we were starting from scratch, there would be at least
a fighting chance of setting up neutral ground rules in a Serbo-Croatian project. But
we're not, and the ground rules and communities are already well established. Given
the current conditions, I think the following questions, and the following questions only,
are within the purview of LangCom:
1. Do we shut down all three individual projects, and require everything to be
consolidated into Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia? (I recommend against this. There would be
constant content wars, almost impossible to regulate, that would take energy away from the
routine business of creating the encyclopedia. The communities would scream bloody murder.
But if we want to go there, I want a Board vote on that, not just our vote.)
2. Do we shut down Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia as redundant (which it basically is),
making sure that appropriate content goes to one or more of the other projects? (We could
put up a trial proposal on Meta and see what people say.)
3. Do we let all of of these operate in parallel as they are now? (Action by
inaction)
4. Do we allow a Montenegrin Wikipedia? (As people know, I favor this. If #2 above were
to happen, I think we'd really have to allow this. If #3 happens, in theory you could
say that Montenegrin is part of Serbo-Croatian and can contribute there. But Serbians
still control that project, and the Montenegrin POV is routinely ignored or overturned. So
in any world where the three grandfathered parallel projects [Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian]
exist, one has to concede that the rule on parallel projects is already not in force in
the world of Serbo-Croatian, and therefore allowing a Montenegrin project simply allows a
Montenegrin POV the same footing the others already have.)
Any other question, such as whether Croatian Wikipedia currently so violates WMF's
overarching practices, principles and rules for intervention, is something for the
stewards, T&S and the Board.
Steven
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 15:00:36 +0000
From: Steven White <koala19890(a)hotmail.com>
To: "langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org" <langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
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Gerard wrote:
Hoi,
When the language committee takes the lead and decides one way or the
other, it makes a recommendation to the board of trustees. Ultimately the
decision is theirs. We do not need to consider that this is a situation
where nobody was willing to act.
Thanks,
GerardM
Just for the record, this is disingenuous. This position is only formally true in the case
of project creations, and only slightly more realistically true in the case of project
closures and deletions. Basically, the Board has delegated these responsibilities to this
Committee. (We don't even have to notify the Board officially of project creations any
more, only of closures.) Unless the Board actively intervenes, it takes this
Committee's action (or inaction) as the official WMF position on a question.
Steven
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Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 5:50 AM
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Subject: Langcom Digest, Vol 71, Issue 3
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Croatian Wikipedia (Ilario Valdelli)
2. Re: Croatian Wikipedia (Gerard Meijssen)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 09:40:28 +0000
From: Ilario Valdelli <ivaldelli(a)wikimedia.ch>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
Message-ID:
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My 2 cents
As I know Serbian uses cyrillic Chars while Croatian use neolatin.
Kind regards
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________________________________
From: Langcom <langcom-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf of James Heilman
<jmh649(a)gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 11:06:19 AM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee <langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
And would it be true that if Croatian was to apply now they would be denied as Serbian
already exists?
James
On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 3:00 AM Ilario Valdelli
<ivaldelli@wikimedia.ch<mailto:ivaldelli@wikimedia.ch>> wrote:
Speaking with a Serbian of another association, there not a significant difference between
the two languages.
Kind regards
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From: Langcom
<langcom-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:langcom-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org>>
on behalf of James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com<mailto:jmh649@gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 9:43:24 AM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
One question, we have Crotian and Serbo-Croatian... How significant is the difference?
J
On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 12:43 AM Amir E. Aharoni
<amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il<mailto:amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>> wrote:
The Stewards, indeed, sound like the first people to talk to about this.
The Language committee should be about the languages themselves, and not so much about
what is said in them.
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
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I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
בתאריך יום ב׳, 2 בספט׳ 2019 ב-9:34 מאת Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com<mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>>:
Hoi,
We could. However, we are not the best positioned group to do so. The stewards come to
mind. The trust and safety committee.. but to be honest the board of trustees is the
organisation that indicates the importance of these issues, has a responsibility to us as
a movement and it can direct the WMF to do whatever.
Thanks,
GerardM
On Mon, 2 Sep 2019 at 07:25, James Heilman
<jmh649@gmail.com<mailto:jmh649@gmail.com>> wrote:
Wondering if this group would be interested in bringing forwards a proposal?
This was just published
https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipe…
--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 11:50:00 +0200
From: Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
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Hoi,
When the language committee takes the lead and decides one way or the
other, it makes a recommendation to the board of trustees. Ultimately the
decision is theirs. We do not need to consider that this is a situation
where nobody was willing to act.
Thanks,
GerardM
On Mon, 2 Sep 2019 at 09:30, Ilario Valdelli <ivaldelli(a)wikimedia.ch> wrote:
I think that the problem is so serious and it exists
for long time that a
single committee cannot do a lot eventi if it does not concern their tasks.
Anyways it has been communicated several times and if it remains the
solution has never been taken.
Kind regards
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------------------------------
*From:* Langcom <langcom-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf of James
Heilman <jmh649(a)gmail.com>
*Sent:* Monday, September 2, 2019 7:25:01 AM
*To:* Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee <langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
*Subject:* [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
Wondering if this group would be interested in bringing forwards a
proposal?
This was just published
https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipe…
--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
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