_______________________________________________Steward Revi wrote:
In my personal opinion, We the Stewards are only authorized to act on a community consensus and are not responsible to decide whether WMF principles, practices, and/or rules are violated.
(Again, I am not speaking on behalf of Stewards, just my POV.)
On the whole, this is true. However, the stewards are authorized to decide on their own whether short-term emergency intervention is warranted in an individual project. And the stewards, more than the Board or T&S, are traveling around different projects looking at things and seeing what's going on. At minimum, if the stewards see something that seems to be substantially and clearly outside of norms, at minimum they are in a position to report it to T&S and the Board, and in practice, if necessary, they can make a short-term intervention. But I will quickly concede that the latter possibility only kicks in when there are truly dire circumstances in play.
Steven
Sent from Outlook
From: Langcom <langcom-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf of langcom-request@lists.wikimedia.org <langcom-request@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 11:00 AM
To: langcom@lists.wikimedia.org <langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Langcom Digest, Vol 71, Issue 5Send Langcom mailing list submissions to
langcom@lists.wikimedia.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625248484&sdata=F7dOwVHvP6g4Fv%2BTgfOmb%2FAcUtULWSHRtlbqAr5t0xQ%3D&reserved=0
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
langcom-request@lists.wikimedia.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
langcom-owner@lists.wikimedia.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Langcom digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Croatian Wikipedia (Steven White)
2. Re: Croatian Wikipedia (Steven White)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 14:55:03 +0000
From: Steven White <Koala19890@hotmail.com>
To: "WMF LangCom (public)" <langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
Message-ID:
<BN8PR04MB635652DC8D3B1E8455053DD99EB80@BN8PR04MB6356.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The former Yugoslavia is one of the most difficult spots in the entire WMF universe.
If we were starting from scratch right now, the tradeoff, as always, would be whether Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin are different enough to warrant separate projects, or whether a single Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia could cover the whole ground. The current policy has potentially contradictory biases. On one hand, there is a bias TOWARD projects in individual languages, and AWAY from projects in macrolanguages. (In this case, Serbo-Croatian is a macrolanguage, and the others are considered constituent languages of that macrolanguage.) On the other hand, there is a bias TOWARD consolidated projects where the languages are mutually comprehensible, both to help prevent POV bias and to reduce unnecessary duplication. I frankly don't know which way we'd go if we were starting from scratch now.
(Technical interlude: the Cyrillic-Latin converters work just fine. That does not need to be a consideration for any of this.)
But in any event, we most assuredly are not starting from scratch. Each of these projects already has a community, a political point of view, and a bias. Those conflict IRL, and they conflict here, too. Again, if we were starting from scratch, there would be at least a fighting chance of setting up neutral ground rules in a Serbo-Croatian project. But we're not, and the ground rules and communities are already well established. Given the current conditions, I think the following questions, and the following questions only, are within the purview of LangCom:
1. Do we shut down all three individual projects, and require everything to be consolidated into Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia? (I recommend against this. There would be constant content wars, almost impossible to regulate, that would take energy away from the routine business of creating the encyclopedia. The communities would scream bloody murder. But if we want to go there, I want a Board vote on that, not just our vote.)
2. Do we shut down Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia as redundant (which it basically is), making sure that appropriate content goes to one or more of the other projects? (We could put up a trial proposal on Meta and see what people say.)
3. Do we let all of of these operate in parallel as they are now? (Action by inaction)
4. Do we allow a Montenegrin Wikipedia? (As people know, I favor this. If #2 above were to happen, I think we'd really have to allow this. If #3 happens, in theory you could say that Montenegrin is part of Serbo-Croatian and can contribute there. But Serbians still control that project, and the Montenegrin POV is routinely ignored or overturned. So in any world where the three grandfathered parallel projects [Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian] exist, one has to concede that the rule on parallel projects is already not in force in the world of Serbo-Croatian, and therefore allowing a Montenegrin project simply allows a Montenegrin POV the same footing the others already have.)
Any other question, such as whether Croatian Wikipedia currently so violates WMF's overarching practices, principles and rules for intervention, is something for the stewards, T&S and the Board.
Steven
Sent from Outlook<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fweboutlook&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625248484&sdata=MToJlBu5B%2BqX2WV%2Fvkmu4SH2FxfQVHpbZFBdSeflUEo%3D&reserved=0>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fpipermail%2Flangcom%2Fattachments%2F20190904%2Fc7f9b8b4%2Fattachment-0001.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625248484&sdata=cRs%2BObiSjGnDJOyKHpFc%2F7puocaQOELyQCCuvldAE7s%3D&reserved=0>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 15:00:36 +0000
From: Steven White <koala19890@hotmail.com>
To: "langcom@lists.wikimedia.org" <langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
Message-ID:
<BN8PR04MB63564B37E47A6A22B29878479EB80@BN8PR04MB6356.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Gerard wrote:
Hoi,
When the language committee takes the lead and decides one way or the
other, it makes a recommendation to the board of trustees. Ultimately the
decision is theirs. We do not need to consider that this is a situation
where nobody was willing to act.
Thanks,
GerardM
Just for the record, this is disingenuous. This position is only formally true in the case of project creations, and only slightly more realistically true in the case of project closures and deletions. Basically, the Board has delegated these responsibilities to this Committee. (We don't even have to notify the Board officially of project creations any more, only of closures.) Unless the Board actively intervenes, it takes this Committee's action (or inaction) as the official WMF position on a question.
Steven
Sent from Outlook<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fweboutlook&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625248484&sdata=MToJlBu5B%2BqX2WV%2Fvkmu4SH2FxfQVHpbZFBdSeflUEo%3D&reserved=0>
________________________________
From: Langcom <langcom-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf of langcom-request@lists.wikimedia.org <langcom-request@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 5:50 AM
To: langcom@lists.wikimedia.org <langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Langcom Digest, Vol 71, Issue 3
Send Langcom mailing list submissions to
langcom@lists.wikimedia.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625248484&sdata=F7dOwVHvP6g4Fv%2BTgfOmb%2FAcUtULWSHRtlbqAr5t0xQ%3D&reserved=0
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
langcom-request@lists.wikimedia.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
langcom-owner@lists.wikimedia.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Langcom digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Croatian Wikipedia (Ilario Valdelli)
2. Re: Croatian Wikipedia (Gerard Meijssen)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 09:40:28 +0000
From: Ilario Valdelli <ivaldelli@wikimedia.ch>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
Message-ID:
<VI1P192MB01579BBB7802B8CEDBA77CB6DDBE0@VI1P192MB0157.EURP192.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
My 2 cents
As I know Serbian uses cyrillic Chars while Croatian use neolatin.
Kind regards
Get Outlook for Android<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fghei36&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625248484&sdata=9eyQn%2Fm90vNouLPzuZhdwMhNc5PdkLUyNSuw%2BmdC5I8%3D&reserved=0>
________________________________
From: Langcom <langcom-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf of James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 11:06:19 AM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee <langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
And would it be true that if Croatian was to apply now they would be denied as Serbian already exists?
James
On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 3:00 AM Ilario Valdelli <ivaldelli@wikimedia.ch<mailto:ivaldelli@wikimedia.ch>> wrote:
Speaking with a Serbian of another association, there not a significant difference between the two languages.
Kind regards
Get Outlook for Android<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fghei36&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625258489&sdata=aouRMnvUt0uHGjjgLGcycVKpDXFrI2k5uw0rkpn51XY%3D&reserved=0>
________________________________
From: Langcom <langcom-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:langcom-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org>> on behalf of James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com<mailto:jmh649@gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 9:43:24 AM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee <langcom@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
One question, we have Crotian and Serbo-Croatian... How significant is the difference?
J
On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 12:43 AM Amir E. Aharoni <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il<mailto:amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>> wrote:
The Stewards, indeed, sound like the first people to talk to about this.
The Language committee should be about the languages themselves, and not so much about what is said in them.
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faharoni.wordpress.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625258489&sdata=D%2FCWjJaL8YTMpR4snBFw2GiDOIzEpfrt3YXSh8X4oGs%3D&reserved=0
“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
בתאריך יום ב׳, 2 בספט׳ 2019 ב-9:34 מאת Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com<mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>>:
Hoi,
We could. However, we are not the best positioned group to do so. The stewards come to mind. The trust and safety committee.. but to be honest the board of trustees is the organisation that indicates the importance of these issues, has a responsibility to us as a movement and it can direct the WMF to do whatever.
Thanks,
GerardM
On Mon, 2 Sep 2019 at 07:25, James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com<mailto:jmh649@gmail.com>> wrote:
Wondering if this group would be interested in bringing forwards a proposal?
This was just published https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia%3AWikipedia_Signpost%2F2019-08-30%2FOpinion&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625258489&sdata=Od72yaS5NXVHq0Ov%2Fx44nrWOvfm0aZtrixc%2FG4PmnRY%3D&reserved=0
--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
_______________________________________________
Langcom mailing list
Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625258489&sdata=1r0NdtPsQ1hREKoZ7JayV%2FkKlSw4mceG1I6XhizY9Qs%3D&reserved=0
_______________________________________________
Langcom mailing list
Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625258489&sdata=1r0NdtPsQ1hREKoZ7JayV%2FkKlSw4mceG1I6XhizY9Qs%3D&reserved=0
_______________________________________________
Langcom mailing list
Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625258489&sdata=1r0NdtPsQ1hREKoZ7JayV%2FkKlSw4mceG1I6XhizY9Qs%3D&reserved=0
--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
_______________________________________________
Langcom mailing list
Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625258489&sdata=1r0NdtPsQ1hREKoZ7JayV%2FkKlSw4mceG1I6XhizY9Qs%3D&reserved=0
--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fpipermail%2Flangcom%2Fattachments%2F20190902%2Fe5c55c45%2Fattachment-0001.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625268497&sdata=lbvyIPJ709vQdVQmhH0eTvWdUXdokM3KD0x5ddsJ9AI%3D&reserved=0>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 11:50:00 +0200
From: Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
Message-ID:
<CAO53wxUSHJZdE1Dxr_AW-CmcOCmAmyep9Km=ra_X35cxUQs4UQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hoi,
When the language committee takes the lead and decides one way or the
other, it makes a recommendation to the board of trustees. Ultimately the
decision is theirs. We do not need to consider that this is a situation
where nobody was willing to act.
Thanks,
GerardM
On Mon, 2 Sep 2019 at 09:30, Ilario Valdelli <ivaldelli@wikimedia.ch> wrote:
> I think that the problem is so serious and it exists for long time that a
> single committee cannot do a lot eventi if it does not concern their tasks.
>
> Anyways it has been communicated several times and if it remains the
> solution has never been taken.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fghei36&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625268497&sdata=WDUswRF4rmQuR6c8hNZlA9yPhceuIApxrgSUeC7xxp4%3D&reserved=0>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Langcom <langcom-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf of James
> Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 2, 2019 7:25:01 AM
> *To:* Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee <langcom@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> *Subject:* [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
>
> Wondering if this group would be interested in bringing forwards a
> proposal?
>
> This was just published
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia%3AWikipedia_Signpost%2F2019-08-30%2FOpinion&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625268497&sdata=Ime6AnCrWZDh9GuOjQPqD7KJZNTSnjyUAys7jafoBvQ%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> _______________________________________________
> Langcom mailing list
> Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625268497&sdata=nQx5p3IaFpYYr3nOmTFUnYlQUnfLqgJWohpnoUT4VWE%3D&reserved=0
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fpipermail%2Flangcom%2Fattachments%2F20190902%2F87d92255%2Fattachment.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625268497&sdata=tqgDsfSo7Cxd%2Fr3hl%2B1HZOX5XPfu3F8C9atA%2Fb5yx1g%3D&reserved=0>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Langcom mailing list
Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org
https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625268497&sdata=nQx5p3IaFpYYr3nOmTFUnYlQUnfLqgJWohpnoUT4VWE%3D&reserved=0
------------------------------
End of Langcom Digest, Vol 71, Issue 3
**************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fpipermail%2Flangcom%2Fattachments%2F20190904%2F89db6601%2Fattachment.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625268497&sdata=DmeYg1BA%2BNdWTrlLtfNn3n2HFbdigqRIaUyLHeDNbgk%3D&reserved=0>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Langcom mailing list
Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org
https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625268497&sdata=nQx5p3IaFpYYr3nOmTFUnYlQUnfLqgJWohpnoUT4VWE%3D&reserved=0
------------------------------
End of Langcom Digest, Vol 71, Issue 5
**************************************
Langcom mailing list
Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom