Thoughts on this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/ig9jia/ive_discovered_that_almost...
Well, happily there are many onwiki discussions already: https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uiser_collogue:MJL#This_entire_wiki_is_not_in... https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mercat_Cross#Criticism_of_language_... https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Forum#Scots_Wikipedia_is_largely_n...
Am Di., 25. Aug. 2020 um 22:47 Uhr schrieb James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
Thoughts on this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/ig9jia/ive_discovered_that_almost...
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
I'm not part of langcom but I wanted to say this is a symptom of a bigger problem, new wikis are left alone to grow without proper oversight and support.
I have seen lots of small wikis full of copyright violations or my similar story is lrcwiki that I brought up to langcom a while back on the problem that its script is so original that no native speaker of that language can read or understand it (I personally showed it to several native speaker) but it mostly got shrugged off because a professor in Canada (who is not a native speaker of that language) approved its original content and then the content drastically changed after approval. Nothing happened.
We really need to do something in that regard.
On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 10:47 PM James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
Thoughts on this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/ig9jia/ive_discovered_that_almost...
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Please see this:
https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uiser_collogue:AmaryllisGardener#STATEMENT
“Honestly, I don't mind if you revert all of my edits, delete my articles, and ban me from the wiki for good. I've already found out that my "contributions" have angered countless people, and to me that's all the devastation I can be given, after years of my thinking I was doing good (and yes, obsessively editing). I was only a 12-year-old kid when I started, and sometimes when you start something young, you can't see that the habit you've developed is unhealthy and unhelpful as you get older. I don't care about defending myself, I only want to stop being harassed on my social medias (and to stop my other friends who have nothing to do with the wiki from being harassed as well). Whether peace can be achieved by scowiki being kept like it is or extensively reformed to wipe my influence from it makes no difference to me now that I know that I've done no good anyway. --AmaryllisGardener talk 21:57, 25 August 2020 (UTC)"
Also it is not “Scotish” or “Scottish” but “Scots”.
Michael
I think Amir is right, but it's really beyond the remit of LangCom to fix some of those problems.
However, if this wiki were moved back into Incubator, and had to re-propose itself via LangCom, then this committee could use its expertise to evaluate its use of language, the sufficiency of its community and translation efforts, etc. It clearly fails your minimum criteria as it stands, and fixing it requires more than just deleting bad content.
I recommend that we add some sort of header to all of the pages on the Scots Wiki so that when the articles are reviewed and edited by someone whose Scots is better, the review can be indicated. A Special Page for reviewed and unreviewed pages could be added so that people can choose pages to review.
Michael Everson
I have been talking with Michael Dempster of the Scots Language Centre here about this matter. He is well aware of the issue and has been inundated with calls for radio interviews even from NPR in the US. I would like to recommend that he be added to this mailing list so that we can discuss approaches to the issue.
Michael
To be honest I don't think there is anything to do for us, as the langcom, at the moment. Discussions are underway on Meta and people have started to appear to clean up the wiki: < https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges%3E. I'd much prefer to let those editors figure out what they want to do and if they eventually want something from us (i.e. the closure of the wiki).
Am Mi., 26. Aug. 2020 um 19:36 Uhr schrieb Michael Everson < everson@evertype.com>:
I have been talking with Michael Dempster of the Scots Language Centre here about this matter. He is well aware of the issue and has been inundated with calls for radio interviews even from NPR in the US. I would like to recommend that he be added to this mailing list so that we can discuss approaches to the issue.
Michael _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
We do not want the closure of the Wiki. What would be helpful would be a means for editors to know what articles have been corrected.
On 26 Aug 2020, at 18:42, MF-Warburg mfwarburg@googlemail.com wrote:
To be honest I don't think there is anything to do for us, as the langcom, at the moment. Discussions are underway on Meta and people have started to appear to clean up the wiki: https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges. I'd much prefer to let those editors figure out what they want to do and if they eventually want something from us (i.e. the closure of the wiki).
Am Mi., 26. Aug. 2020 um 19:36 Uhr schrieb Michael Everson everson@evertype.com: I have been talking with Michael Dempster of the Scots Language Centre here about this matter. He is well aware of the issue and has been inundated with calls for radio interviews even from NPR in the US. I would like to recommend that he be added to this mailing list so that we can discuss approaches to the issue.
Michael
On the Scots Language Forum on Wikipedia the following was said:
One reads that a group of volunteers will endeavor to correct the Scots Wikipedia pages. Might it be a good idea if they were to flag the pages they have corrected, or judged to be devoid of unreliable language, so visitors know whether a page can be trusted or not ?
A response was made:
We certainly need a process for this. I think Wikipedia can do a lot of flagging with automatic bots.
There are two parties to this. One is WikiMedia and the various volunteer admins, who have the tools and technical knowledge to deal with critical incidents like this. The other is the Scots language 'community'. The online discussion yesterday was mostly among the former, but they were clearly looking for guidance from the latter on what to do
==========
Can this be facilitated?
Michael
Hoi, I am in two minds about this one. Yes, the sco.wikipedia is a fiasco. However, when we concentrate on what is bad, there will be people who will obsess with using this mechanism on other Wikipedias. The Cebuano Wikipedia comes to mind, Waray-Waray.
Given language constructs, with a little bit of luck we can replace languages structures that are wrong. We can ask the people of Abstract Wikipedia to consider this. For them it is an exercise that is relatively easy (only one language other than English) and it solves an actual problem. How do you like this suggestion? Thanks, GerardM
On Thu, 27 Aug 2020 at 20:33, Michael Everson everson@evertype.com wrote:
On the Scots Language Forum on Wikipedia the following was said:
One reads that a group of volunteers will endeavor to correct the Scots Wikipedia pages. Might it be a good idea if they were to flag the pages they have corrected, or judged to be devoid of unreliable language, so visitors know whether a page can be trusted or not ?
A response was made:
We certainly need a process for this. I think Wikipedia can do a lot of flagging with automatic bots.
There are two parties to this. One is WikiMedia and the various volunteer admins, who have the tools and technical knowledge to deal with critical incidents like this. The other is the Scots language 'community'. The online discussion yesterday was mostly among the former, but they were clearly looking for guidance from the latter on what to do
==========
Can this be facilitated?
Michael _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Scots is not a “language construct”. Whatever you mean by that.
Scots speakers are interested in re-writing the articles. They are requesting a mechanism for indicating that pages have been edited and corrected. Including a Special Page that lists uncorrected articles.
These resources should be supplied. I don’t want to have to keep asking. Surely this is one of our jobs.
Michael
On 27 Aug 2020, at 20:57, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, I am in two minds about this one. Yes, the sco.wikipedia is a fiasco. However, when we concentrate on what is bad, there will be people who will obsess with using this mechanism on other Wikipedias. The Cebuano Wikipedia comes to mind, Waray-Waray.
Given language constructs, with a little bit of luck we can replace languages structures that are wrong. We can ask the people of Abstract Wikipedia to consider this. For them it is an exercise that is relatively easy (only one language other than English) and it solves an actual problem. How do you like this suggestion? Thanks, GerardM
On Thu, 27 Aug 2020 at 20:33, Michael Everson everson@evertype.com wrote: On the Scots Language Forum on Wikipedia the following was said:
One reads that a group of volunteers will endeavor to correct the Scots Wikipedia pages. Might it be a good idea if they were to flag the pages they have corrected, or judged to be devoid of unreliable language, so visitors know whether a page can be trusted or not ?
A response was made:
We certainly need a process for this. I think Wikipedia can do a lot of flagging with automatic bots.
There are two parties to this. One is WikiMedia and the various volunteer admins, who have the tools and technical knowledge to deal with critical incidents like this. The other is the Scots language 'community'. The online discussion yesterday was mostly among the former, but they were clearly looking for guidance from the latter on what to do
==========
Can this be facilitated?
Michael _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Thank you, I'm very happy to advise on behalf of the Scots Language Centre.
Michael
On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 18:36, Michael Everson everson@evertype.com wrote:
I have been talking with Michael Dempster of the Scots Language Centre here about this matter. He is well aware of the issue and has been inundated with calls for radio interviews even from NPR in the US. I would like to recommend that he be added to this mailing list so that we can discuss approaches to the issue.
Michael
In case a non-member’s e-mail is not distributed to the group, I received this from Michael Dempster.
On 28 Aug 2020, at 07:21, Michael Dempster m.dempster@scotslanguage.com wrote:
Thank you, I'm very happy to advise on behalf of the Scots Language Centre.
Michael
On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 18:36, Michael Everson everson@evertype.com wrote: I have been talking with Michael Dempster of the Scots Language Centre here about this matter. He is well aware of the issue and has been inundated with calls for radio interviews even from NPR in the US. I would like to recommend that he be added to this mailing list so that we can discuss approaches to the issue.
Michael
Dr Michael Dempster Director Scots Language Centre A K Bell Library York Place Perth PH2 8EP
Tel: 01738 440199
m.dempster@scotslanguage.com
www.scotslanguage.com
Registered in Scotland as an Industrial & Provident Society No. 2451R(S). Scottish Charity No. SCO21747
I would like a response from members. Michael Dempster informs me:
“Hey, the ediathon seems to be going well. However an editor has said to the community they don't want to edit any more because there's "a likelihood that a whole lot of articles will be deleted" is that still the case, do you know?”
Well, I don’t know, but we should NOT delete any of the articles.
What we NEED to do is make some sort of indicator on the site so that people know that an article has been reviewed, edited, and approved.
How can we (1) inform the editors and (2) make this happen?
Thanks, Michael Everson
On 28 Aug 2020, at 11:04, Michael Everson everson@evertype.com wrote:
In case a non-member’s e-mail is not distributed to the group, I received this from Michael Dempster.
On 28 Aug 2020, at 07:21, Michael Dempster m.dempster@scotslanguage.com wrote:
Thank you, I'm very happy to advise on behalf of the Scots Language Centre.
Michael
On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 18:36, Michael Everson everson@evertype.com wrote: I have been talking with Michael Dempster of the Scots Language Centre here about this matter. He is well aware of the issue and has been inundated with calls for radio interviews even from NPR in the US. I would like to recommend that he be added to this mailing list so that we can discuss approaches to the issue.
Michael
Dr Michael Dempster Director Scots Language Centre A K Bell Library York Place Perth PH2 8EP
Tel: 01738 440199
m.dempster@scotslanguage.com
www.scotslanguage.com
Registered in Scotland as an Industrial & Provident Society No. 2451R(S). Scottish Charity No. SCO21747
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
The scots community can make a template that says the article needs review. Then have a bot add that template to all articles in article space. As articles are removed people can simply remove the template. One can also make a template to indicate that an article has passed review.
You will just need to find a bot operator. Not sure if you have any within the Scots community.
James
On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 11:58 AM Michael Everson everson@evertype.com wrote:
I would like a response from members. Michael Dempster informs me:
“Hey, the ediathon seems to be going well. However an editor has said to the community they don't want to edit any more because there's "a likelihood that a whole lot of articles will be deleted" is that still the case, do you know?”
Well, I don’t know, but we should NOT delete any of the articles.
What we NEED to do is make some sort of indicator on the site so that people know that an article has been reviewed, edited, and approved.
How can we (1) inform the editors and (2) make this happen?
Thanks, Michael Everson
On 28 Aug 2020, at 11:04, Michael Everson everson@evertype.com wrote:
In case a non-member’s e-mail is not distributed to the group, I
received this from Michael Dempster.
On 28 Aug 2020, at 07:21, Michael Dempster <
m.dempster@scotslanguage.com> wrote:
Thank you, I'm very happy to advise on behalf of the Scots Language
Centre.
Michael
On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 18:36, Michael Everson everson@evertype.com
wrote:
I have been talking with Michael Dempster of the Scots Language Centre
here about this matter. He is well aware of the issue and has been inundated with calls for radio interviews even from NPR in the US. I would like to recommend that he be added to this mailing list so that we can discuss approaches to the issue.
Michael
Dr Michael Dempster Director Scots Language Centre A K Bell Library York Place Perth PH2 8EP
Tel: 01738 440199
m.dempster@scotslanguage.com
www.scotslanguage.com
Registered in Scotland as an Industrial & Provident Society No.
2451R(S). Scottish Charity No. SCO21747
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
I can’t do it. I don’t know anyone who can apart from maybe people here. I doubt they have anyone making bots. So can we take charge of this?
Michael
On 30 Aug 2020, at 19:08, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
The scots community can make a template that says the article needs review. Then have a bot add that template to all articles in article space. As articles are removed people can simply remove the template. One can also make a template to indicate that an article has passed review.
You will just need to find a bot operator. Not sure if you have any within the Scots community.
James
On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 11:58 AM Michael Everson everson@evertype.com wrote: I would like a response from members. Michael Dempster informs me:
“Hey, the ediathon seems to be going well. However an editor has said to the community they don't want to edit any more because there's "a likelihood that a whole lot of articles will be deleted" is that still the case, do you know?”
Well, I don’t know, but we should NOT delete any of the articles.
What we NEED to do is make some sort of indicator on the site so that people know that an article has been reviewed, edited, and approved.
How can we (1) inform the editors and (2) make this happen?
Thanks, Michael Everson
On 28 Aug 2020, at 11:04, Michael Everson everson@evertype.com wrote:
In case a non-member’s e-mail is not distributed to the group, I received this from Michael Dempster.
On 28 Aug 2020, at 07:21, Michael Dempster m.dempster@scotslanguage.com wrote:
Thank you, I'm very happy to advise on behalf of the Scots Language Centre.
Michael
On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 18:36, Michael Everson everson@evertype.com wrote: I have been talking with Michael Dempster of the Scots Language Centre here about this matter. He is well aware of the issue and has been inundated with calls for radio interviews even from NPR in the US. I would like to recommend that he be added to this mailing list so that we can discuss approaches to the issue.
Michael
Dr Michael Dempster Director Scots Language Centre A K Bell Library York Place Perth PH2 8EP
Tel: 01738 440199
m.dempster@scotslanguage.com
www.scotslanguage.com
Registered in Scotland as an Industrial & Provident Society No. 2451R(S). Scottish Charity No. SCO21747
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
How often should I point to the RFC again?
Am So., 30. Aug. 2020 um 20:14 Uhr schrieb Michael Everson < everson@evertype.com>:
I can’t do it. I don’t know anyone who can apart from maybe people here. I doubt they have anyone making bots. So can we take charge of this?
Michael
On 30 Aug 2020, at 19:08, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
The scots community can make a template that says the article needs
review. Then have a bot add that template to all articles in article space. As articles are removed people can simply remove the template. One can also make a template to indicate that an article has passed review.
You will just need to find a bot operator. Not sure if you have any
within the Scots community.
James
On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 11:58 AM Michael Everson everson@evertype.com
wrote:
I would like a response from members. Michael Dempster informs me:
“Hey, the ediathon seems to be going well. However an editor has said
to the community they don't want to edit any more because there's "a likelihood that a whole lot of articles will be deleted" is that still the case, do you know?”
Well, I don’t know, but we should NOT delete any of the articles.
What we NEED to do is make some sort of indicator on the site so that
people know that an article has been reviewed, edited, and approved.
How can we (1) inform the editors and (2) make this happen?
Thanks, Michael Everson
On 28 Aug 2020, at 11:04, Michael Everson everson@evertype.com
wrote:
In case a non-member’s e-mail is not distributed to the group, I
received this from Michael Dempster.
On 28 Aug 2020, at 07:21, Michael Dempster <
m.dempster@scotslanguage.com> wrote:
Thank you, I'm very happy to advise on behalf of the Scots Language
Centre.
Michael
On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 18:36, Michael Everson everson@evertype.com
wrote:
I have been talking with Michael Dempster of the Scots Language
Centre here about this matter. He is well aware of the issue and has been inundated with calls for radio interviews even from NPR in the US. I would like to recommend that he be added to this mailing list so that we can discuss approaches to the issue.
Michael
Dr Michael Dempster Director Scots Language Centre A K Bell Library York Place Perth PH2 8EP
Tel: 01738 440199
m.dempster@scotslanguage.com
www.scotslanguage.com
Registered in Scotland as an Industrial & Provident Society No.
2451R(S). Scottish Charity No. SCO21747
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
To clarify: There is now a bevy of users editing scowiki (and presumably fixing it). There is still this huge RFC on Meta about it at < https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Large_scale_language_in.... Multiple people are running for adminship to be even more efficient at doing the cleanup < https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship%3E If you want to help with it, by all means go for it by engaging with the people there where these discussions are happening. However, nobody is being helped by us discussing about a new template or a bot in our quiet little mailing list here. There is already such a template now: < https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mercat_Cross#(en)_The_Big_Wiki_Rewr.... Ostensibly, many experienced people are participating there (they know how to use WMF Labs, for example) and also on the RFC in general. One is also a WMUK staffer. Stewards, global sysops and the new local sysops are involved and can address the topic of deletions. I am sure lots of people there come from enwiki and know how to get bot operators to help them. I am sure they all welcome additional help, but all of that can be easily coordinated on-wiki.
Am So., 30. Aug. 2020 um 20:45 Uhr schrieb MF-Warburg < mfwarburg@googlemail.com>:
How often should I point to the RFC again?
Am So., 30. Aug. 2020 um 20:14 Uhr schrieb Michael Everson < everson@evertype.com>:
I can’t do it. I don’t know anyone who can apart from maybe people here. I doubt they have anyone making bots. So can we take charge of this?
Michael
On 30 Aug 2020, at 19:08, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
The scots community can make a template that says the article needs
review. Then have a bot add that template to all articles in article space. As articles are removed people can simply remove the template. One can also make a template to indicate that an article has passed review.
You will just need to find a bot operator. Not sure if you have any
within the Scots community.
James
On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 11:58 AM Michael Everson everson@evertype.com
wrote:
I would like a response from members. Michael Dempster informs me:
“Hey, the ediathon seems to be going well. However an editor has said
to the community they don't want to edit any more because there's "a likelihood that a whole lot of articles will be deleted" is that still the case, do you know?”
Well, I don’t know, but we should NOT delete any of the articles.
What we NEED to do is make some sort of indicator on the site so that
people know that an article has been reviewed, edited, and approved.
How can we (1) inform the editors and (2) make this happen?
Thanks, Michael Everson
On 28 Aug 2020, at 11:04, Michael Everson everson@evertype.com
wrote:
In case a non-member’s e-mail is not distributed to the group, I
received this from Michael Dempster.
On 28 Aug 2020, at 07:21, Michael Dempster <
m.dempster@scotslanguage.com> wrote:
Thank you, I'm very happy to advise on behalf of the Scots Language
Centre.
Michael
On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 18:36, Michael Everson everson@evertype.com
wrote:
I have been talking with Michael Dempster of the Scots Language
Centre here about this matter. He is well aware of the issue and has been inundated with calls for radio interviews even from NPR in the US. I would like to recommend that he be added to this mailing list so that we can discuss approaches to the issue.
Michael
Dr Michael Dempster Director Scots Language Centre A K Bell Library York Place Perth PH2 8EP
Tel: 01738 440199
m.dempster@scotslanguage.com
www.scotslanguage.com
Registered in Scotland as an Industrial & Provident Society No.
2451R(S). Scottish Charity No. SCO21747
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom