None of this is leading anywhere. I suggest taking note of this useful comment: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Requests_for_comment/Start_allowing_anc...
Am Di., 14. Sept. 2021 um 14:23 Uhr schrieb Jim Killock <jim@killock.org.uk
:
Thank you Gerard
This is helpful. When did the Charter come into effect?
On 14 Sep 2021, at 13:03, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, This committee predates the charter. Thanks, GerardM
On Tue, 14 Sept 2021 at 13:42, Jim Killock jim@killock.org.uk wrote:
Do any of the other Committee members have an opinion about this below?
I do not believe it the problem here to be a "process issue”.
- The orginal consultation was faulty, in breach of the Committee
Charter and has produced a problematic AL policy; 2. The Committee’s current is in likely breach of the Committee’ Charter language policy as it is not based on “quantative indicators” but instead changes these indicators according to preference; 3. This tension between the Committee’s Charter and the AL policy is being consulted on now, there is an alternative approach available, but so far the Committee do not seem to wish to respond or to discuss these mitigations
Gerard, this does not need a response from you at this stage as we have that already
On Mon, 13 Sept 2021 at 20:31, Jim Killock jim@killock.org.uk wrote:
Dear Gerard,
I am sorry you feel your time is being wasted. I am also very surprised how much effort this is taking, especially given that *the request for policy change in the RFC is very limited*, and would help the Committee deal with issues around the ancient language wikis which are not performing well. Furthermore I have no wish to be a nuisance, rather I would like to work with the Committee to help improve the ability of Ancient Language Wikis (ALWs) to meet WM’s mission.
As you say, the policy is clear; the process is now clearer, having found the email archive. This is important, because some members of the Committee want to leave the current policy in place, should the current RFC be rejected.
However, that is only reasonable if the policy you have can be seen to be developed fairly and responsibly, and to have dealt with all of the issues properly, at the time. Looking at the email discussion that led to the change I would observe that:
- The change to the status of Ancient Languages was *presented as a
minor change to the Language proposal policy* 2. The discussion was very short, with just 16 emails sent 3. *Only three issues were raised*; being the need to meet the mission; a "need for native speakers"; and the need for a “natural audience” 4. There were no mitigations or alternatives discussed 5. There was *no mention of a public discussion or consultation*, which *appears to be a breach of the Committee’s Charter commitment to transparency* 6. There was no discussion of whether *qualitative factors* (ancient versus constructed languages) could be appropriately combined with *different treatment of objective factors* (numbers of native speakers) which *appears to be in breach of the Committee’s Charter, which commits to using objective factors alone.*
Point six in particular is in need of public consultation and a consensus, and should not be the property of the Committee to determine by itself, or via a Board rubber stamp.
All this said, it is easy to say these things in hindsight. I just want to be plain that the current RFC process is already a much more thorough and developed policy process than that in 2007 - quite naturally, given we have 14 years of further experience to apply. A review would be quite natural after this length of time in any case.
So this is not meant as criticism, still less a personal one. I would however like the Committee to approach the current RFC positively, and use it to take a fresh look.
Thank you again for your time,
Jim
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