Hoi,
People may bastardise a dead language and come up with anything. It does
not become part of the canonical language. Arabic demonstrates this by
analogy; the Arabic of the Prophet is not the language as used today. There
are many Arabic languages recognised in ISO-639-3, they are what is spoken
and written today. The language and the concepts of the Arabic of the
Quran is well defined and is static.
Thanks,
GerardM
On Wed, 22 Sept 2021 at 15:25, Phake Nick <c933103(a)gmail.com> wrote:
What about other applications for other
wikiprojects in Latin?
Indeed, the fact that some people write new poems or essays in
Classical Chinese does not alter the fact that it is a dead language.
But it contradicts your claim that such language would have a closed
wordbase and cannot be expanded to express new concepts. And thus
nullified such explanation being used as rationale in rejecting
wikiprojects written in such ancient language.
Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> 於 2021年9月22日週三 下午8:25寫道:
Hoi,
Latin is outside of the remit of the language committee because its
Wikipedia
already existed. The fact that some people write new poems or
essays in Classical Chinese does not alter the fact that it is a dead
language, it is not eligible for a Wikipedia.
Thanks,
GerardM
On Wed, 22 Sept 2021 at 14:13, Phake Nick <c933103(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Latin is an ancient language but people can and do still invent new
terms in
Latin and put them into use, see for example biological species
name, which is full of neologism in Latin. But they're widely accepted and
being used around the world. I cannot see how being an anciebt language
mean it cannot accept new vocabulary. Likewise, Classical Chinese is a dead
language. But people can and occasionally still do write new poem and essay
in Classical Chinese. That often involve invoking new concepts with new
vocabulary that didn't exists when the labguage was widely used. I cannot
see how that's not acceptable for ancient languages.
>
> 在 2021年9月21日週二 05:46,Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> 寫道:
>>
>> Hoi,
>> The problem is that you insist on a deterministic approach. You seek
a
solution for something that is not a problem. I do not care for rule
bases they prevent people from thinking. In your view of the world, the
world is better off with more prescriptions, I gave you an insight what
languages fail my notions of eligibility; is it a language that is open to
new terminology. For you it means that i want to change the policy, for me
it means that it explains how the existing policy operates.
>>
>> You are flogging a dead horse. NB there is no consensus.
>> Thanks,
>> GerardM
>>
>> On Mon, 20 Sept 2021 at 23:28, Jim Killock <jim(a)killock.org.uk>
wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Gerard and Committee
>>>
>>> Given that
>>>
>>> consensus on the RFC has been that the problems here can be solved
by
defining a class of “Classic Languages” to be given the same status as
nativelangs and conlangs,
>>> this being on the grounds that they
are “across millenia proven
second language vehicles”, thus a bar on the grounds of
lack of first
language speakers; and
>>> this is admittedly taking a lot of
energy for a small problem to
solve
>>>
>>>
>>> as a thought experiment, and to turn the problem on its head in
order
to solve it, could you indicate if there anything significantly
unacceptable with this below, and if so, what precisely?
>>>
>>> Classical languages
>>> The Classical languages [such as] Latin, Ancient Greek, Classical
Chinese and Sanskrit are allowed, due to their long and continuing
traditions of second-language, non-native production, communication and
learning, and their cultural significance. Communities are allowed to apply
for new Wikis in these languages.
>>>
>>>
>>> For instance, if the list of languages in your view should omit
“Ancient Greek”; then perhaps you could agree the rest of it?
>>>
>>>
>>> On 20 Sep 2021, at 10:48, Jim Killock <jim(a)killock.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Signed PGP part
>>> Der Gerard
>>>
>>> On 20 Sep 2021, at 10:15, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>
>>> Hoi,
>>> I am appalled by the continued misrepresentation of the existing
language policy and the hyping of the suggested changes.
>>>
>>>
>>> Please remember the changes suggested are very narrow and easy to
apply
>>>
>>> Latin is an existing Wikipedia, it is outside of the remit of the
current policy and that will not change.
>>>
>>>
>>> However, Latin, Sanskrit, Classical Chinese et al are denied the
possibility of other further Wikis by the policy should they ask
>>>
>>> When a proposal is made, we have always considered the provided
arguments and we can and do make exceptions when we feel they make sense.
>>>
>>>
>>> It is not reasonable for people to build projects against the policy
and hope they are granted an exception, especially when this can be easily
fixed, viz Option Two which lists languages deemed adequately productive
>>>
>>> The latest notion that our existing policy is discriminating against
ethnic and religious identities is preposterous. For me the crux of
defining a language as eligible for a Wikipedia is that when the corpus of
the language is defined in the past there is an accepted room for the
introduction of new terminology. If a language does not have room for new
terminology a Wikipedia by definition does not serve its purpose.
>>>
>>> On the former point, I believe it is very open to accusations of
discrimination regarding Sanskrit, which is disallowed advancement in the
current policy.
>>>
>>> On the latter point, the policy does not say “if the langauge does
not
have room for new terminology” but rather “does not have native
speakers”, so I believe you are arguing to change the current policy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For me this continued pushing for something that serves no purpose
is
a waste of time. When Jim Killock wants to spend his effort in a
productive way, he could for instance ask himself why nine year old kids
cannot find pictures in Commons in the language they know.
>>>
>>> In conclusion: the existing policy is adequate for what it is
expected
to do.
>>> Thanks,
>>> GerardM
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 20 Sept 2021 at 09:49, Jim Killock <jim(a)killock.org.uk>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Committee,
>>>>
>>>> I do hope you are finding the time to take consideration of the
very limited and sensible proposals in front of you, to allow specific
Classical Languages, where they are and have long been second language
vehicles, with proven methods of educating second langauge users and
contemporary usage. There are two options along these lines at the RFC,
which seems stable to me.
>>>>
>>>> I would like to draw your attention to this part of the preamble
>>>>
>>>> Eliminating potential discrimination against ethnic and religious
identities
>>>>
>>>> The proposal seeks to lower the possibilities of discrimination
against people with particular religious or ethnic identities that may
occur by placing an absolute ban on further Classical language projects.
The importance of Ancient Languages to ethnic and religious identity can be
seen regarding to Sanskrit for Hindus, Buddhists and Jainists; or Classical
Chinese for Buddhism. Latin and Koine Greek are important to Orthodox
Christians, Catholics and Protestants in differing ways, being the
languages of most important theological debates.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are some considerable risks of offence (as well as
unfairness) from the current policy in certain of those cases, particularly
Sanskrit, which is a Holy language for Hindus. The current policy could
quite reasonably be interpreted from the policy and some of the
justification made for it by Committee members to mean that Wikimedia
believes that Sanskrit is dysfunctional, incapable of usage and usefulness
in a modern setting and unworthy of an active place in the modern world of
education; something which of course it does have.
>>>>
>>>> Given the highly politicised and at times violent nature of Hindu
politics, these are not trivial risks; ones which I imagine the Board will
want you to ensure are mitigated.
>>>>
>>>> I say this entirely understanding that the authors of these
statements did not have Sanskrit in mind; but to remind you that it is the
impliation of the current policy, that the criticisms of all ancient
languages, apply to any particular one, as all are currently blocked from
progress.
>>>
>>> Thank you for your consideration,
>>>
>>> Jim
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