In principle, I agree with Satdeep. But that said, there happens to be a technical logjam in creating any new wikis right now. See phabricator T212881<https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T212881>. So approving this project now, vs. approving it in ten days (once we're up to five qualifying months), will make no difference as a practical matter. If MF-Warburg does not agree once March has at least three editors with ten edits each, I will formally call a vote.
Steven
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
I will rework this to remove anything relating to historical languages for now. (I'll let the Committee know when the new draft is ready.)
After March 1 (to put everything on the same archive page) I am going to make a one-off proposal to mark Ancient Greek Wikipedia as "eligible". After that, I'll make a proposal on historical languages more broadly.
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From: Langcom <langcom-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf of langcom-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org <langcom-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Requests for new languages: Wikisource Literary Chinese
(MF-Warburg)
2. Re: Proposed changes to LPP (MF-Warburg)
3. Re: Requests for new languages: Wikisource Literary Chinese
(Gerard Meijssen)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 18:01:42 +0100
From: MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Requests for new languages: Wikisource Literary
Chinese
Message-ID:
<CAJKMOMUq0wkgQ=jNwhqN12UWAEJ6XZKRbxg-859JKBAXQehhFw(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hello and apologies that I only answer on the 7th day, but this is a really
complex matter.
I have come to a different conclusion and think that the request should not
be rejected, but rather made eligible under the current rules.
Saying that this content must go to zh.ws is rather similar to saying
"Latin content should be on es.ws, as that is the daughter with the most
speakers".
[We see again here the problem with having Wikisource subdomains, which
also leads to funny situations where half a book is on one wiki, and the
other half on the other, as in <
https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fla.wikiso…
>.]
Am Mo., 4. Feb. 2019 um 23:39 Uhr schrieb Steven White <
Koala19890(a)hotmail.com>:
> MF-Warburg reversed what he felt was a premature and unilateral decision
> on my part to reject this request, and rightly so. (This is not least
> because I *just* promised to continue to post non-routine closings here.)
> My apologies to the Committee. Nevertheless, I am proposing to reject this
> request, which has been actively running for about three months.
>
> In certain respects, Literary Chinese has parallels to Latin, in that it
> was the literary *lingua franca* in much of East Asia—not just China—for
> centuries. On the basis of policy, one could thus justify allowing this as
> an independent project (currently in Multilingual Wikisource). At the same
> time, it is also a historical version of Chinese, and on the basis of
> policy, one could also justify housing this content in Chinese Wikisource.
>
> As a practical matter, there is substantial Literary Chinese content in
> Chinese Wikisource already, and very little in Multilingual Wikisource.
> Except for the person who made the request, everyone else who contributed
> to the discussion on Meta feels that Literary Chinese is adequately and
> properly curated on Chinese Wikisource.
>
> Over the course of the discussion, I made one request of the Chinese
> Wikisource community, and that was to make it possible for non-Mandarin
> speakers having an interest in this content to have a way to communicate
> other than in Mandarin. They have done so.
>
> It doesn't really serve the bulk of the Literary Chinese community, nor
> WMF in general, to split Literary Chinese out from Chinese Wikisource as an
> independent project. The objections of the one user making the request
> notwithstanding, Wikisource content in Literary Chinese is better off
> staying in Chinese Wikisource.
>
> The discussion page is here
> <https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.wiki…>.
> Thank you in advance for your comments. If there are not objections in
> seven days, I will proceed to close.
>
> Steven
>
> Sent from Outlook <https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fw…>
> _______________________________________________
> Langcom mailing list
> Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
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>
My bias was toward approach 3. On the whole, I agree with MF-W that at least for the time being I'm OK with having Literary Chinese content in both places. Still, our general practice right now is that even if a project is notionally eligible, we want to make sure that some semblance of a community has gathered and that some content is being created. if that doesn't happen, we close the request as "rejected/stale".
In this case, so far, there is one contributor interested, who has created only a handful of pages. My feeling is that we should put the proposal on hold, pending involvement of more people. If more people become involved, I will mark it eligible. But if no one else comes along, then we will mark it "rejected/stale". Any thoughts?
Steven
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Consensus seems to be building around approving this. MF-W, are you willing to withdraw your objection and to allow this to pass by consensus? Or do I need to call a vote?
Steven
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Feb 2019 21:54:19 +0100
From: Jon Harald Søby <jhsoby(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Approval for Hindi Wikisource
Message-ID:
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Me neither.
Den ons. 20. feb. 2019 kl. 21:33 skrev Satdeep Gill <satdeepgill(a)gmail.com>:
> I see no reason in delaying this.
>
> Regards
> Satdeep Gill
>
> Program Officer
> GLAM and Underrepresented Knowledge
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
MF-W, I felt the same way you did at first. But in truth this is an extremely borderline case that the policy can allow to go in either direction. There have been further discussions both here<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Language_committee#Wikisources:_Latin_…> and here<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikisource_Liter…>. Let me summarize a key point here, and then suggest what I think the real issue is.
Culturally, the comparison to Latin is apt. Literary Chinese was unquestionably the lingua franca of the region, and people everywhere used it. And the writing system of Literary Chinese was definitely used/adapted for other languages like Japanese and Korean. On the other hand, neither of those languages is actually linguistically descended from Literary Chinese. Korean is a linguistic isolate, while Japanese is only related to some languages used in and around Japan and neighboring islands. So Chinese is the clear principal descendant of Literary Chinese; it's not like Latin, where there are several strong descendants.
As I see it, the real nub of the discussion goes something like this:
PRO LZH WIKISOURCE: One user really wants this. Perhaps one other user supports the idea in principal, on the mostly theoretical grounds that housing lzh content in Chinese/Mandarin Wikisource may inhibit non-Mandarin speakers from participating.
ANTI LZH WIKISOURCE: Most of the community feels that things are working fine as they are now. There is substantial lzh content in zhwikisource, and the community tells me that it is confident that the content is being curated openly and appropriately. I will add that I requested the community to create a mechanism to facilitate non-Mandarin discussion there, and an English Scriptorium was created. Whether it's being used, and whether that is sufficient, is a separate question. But that's a start.
In my mind, there are some choices we can make. Any of these can be tweaked, but I think the general approaches go like this:
1. Mark eligible, and based on the substantial lzh content that already exists, more or less immediately create an lzh Wikisource. I will tell you that I think the current Chinese Wikisource community would object strenuously to this approach, and that community is responsible for most of the content that currently exists.
2. Mark eligible and allow lzh content on Multilingual Wikisource in parallel to Chinese Wikisource. We can set up some rules to minimize outright duplication. But the idea here is to see if a community that would otherwise not contribute on Chinese Wikisource appears.
3. Mark "on hold" and allow lzh content on Multilingual Wikisource in parallel to Chinese Wikisource. This is similar to the previous, but with a stronger implication that if this parallel community never materializes, we will close this test project down at some point and merge appropriate content into Chinese Wikisource.
4. Reject, and merge appropriate content now. The party requesting eligibility here has not created a ton of content so far, so this wouldn't be hard to do.
I know what approach I favor. But I would ask what others think first.
Steven
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
MF-W (and Committee): Hindi Wikisource has already far surpassed the eligibility requirement for February, making a fourth consecutive eligible month. There are 5,554 pages in the test project. In my view, for what that's worth:
* If MF-W wants to start a discussion on not spinning off future Wikisource projects, he can certainly do that. I'd venture that such a change would require both a 2/3 vote in this committee and also Board approval, though I may be mistaken. But we can go down that path, no doubt.
* It would be highly unfair to apply such a rule to Hindi Wikisource, which has worked diligently toward a project under the current rules. Even if we change the rules going forward, this project should be approved.
MF-W, are you willing to withdraw your objection so that we can move this forward? Thanks.
Steven
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________________________________
From: Langcom <langcom-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf of langcom-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org <langcom-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 7:00 AM
To: langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Langcom Digest, Vol 64, Issue 8
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Approval for Hindi Wikisource (MF-Warburg)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 01:58:48 +0100
From: MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Approval for Hindi Wikisource
Message-ID:
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Am Di., 29. Jan. 2019 um 16:46 Uhr schrieb Steven White <
koala19890(a)hotmail.com>:
> Leaving aside the question of whether we should change policies about
> separate-language Wikisource projects for the time being, I'll note that
> our longstanding policy has been that three consecutive months of
> qualifying activity is sufficient to meet the "active test community"
> requirement. I routinely tell that to test communities. If we want to
> change that in the future, we can do so. But in this case, the test
> community has already done everything we have asked of it.
>
> Besides, while it is important to ensure that each wiki we approve
> continues to have a contributing community, I worry less about Wikisource
> (and Wiktionary, Wikibooks, Wikiquote) than I do about
> Wikipedia–Wikinews–Wikitravel. Information gets stale (or is quite subject
> to political manipulation) in the latter group, less so in the former group.
>
> So I think we need to proceed with this approval.
> Steven
>
Yes, "active" is thought of as "at least several months", and "at least
several" means at least 3. So here we're at the lower threshold, not at
some level where we "need to" approve.
> I agree with Steven here. A sysop from multilingual Wikisource reached
out to me recently to ask if we are going to have a separate Hindi
Wikisource soon, since it was feared that the multilingual Wikisource might
become the de facto Hindi Wikisource.
I have read that as well somewhere. What kind of argument is that supposed
to be? It's not like any other languages' "space" is taken up by the Hindi
content.
MF-Warburg reversed what he felt was a premature and unilateral decision on my part to reject this request, and rightly so. (This is not least because I just promised to continue to post non-routine closings here.) My apologies to the Committee. Nevertheless, I am proposing to reject this request, which has been actively running for about three months.
In certain respects, Literary Chinese has parallels to Latin, in that it was the literary lingua franca in much of East Asia—not just China—for centuries. On the basis of policy, one could thus justify allowing this as an independent project (currently in Multilingual Wikisource). At the same time, it is also a historical version of Chinese, and on the basis of policy, one could also justify housing this content in Chinese Wikisource.
As a practical matter, there is substantial Literary Chinese content in Chinese Wikisource already, and very little in Multilingual Wikisource. Except for the person who made the request, everyone else who contributed to the discussion on Meta feels that Literary Chinese is adequately and properly curated on Chinese Wikisource.
Over the course of the discussion, I made one request of the Chinese Wikisource community, and that was to make it possible for non-Mandarin speakers having an interest in this content to have a way to communicate other than in Mandarin. They have done so.
It doesn't really serve the bulk of the Literary Chinese community, nor WMF in general, to split Literary Chinese out from Chinese Wikisource as an independent project. The objections of the one user making the request notwithstanding, Wikisource content in Literary Chinese is better off staying in Chinese Wikisource.
The discussion page is here<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikisource_Liter…>. Thank you in advance for your comments. If there are not objections in seven days, I will proceed to close.
Steven
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MF-W, I never saw your email on the proposed LPP changes at the time. What's more, I just looked through my email again, and still didn't see it. I only found your response when I looked at the online archive of the private list. I don't know what happened there, but I really was not trying to ignore any input. I promise you that, and apologize that it must appear otherwise.
I will not post the proposed changes live today at all. I will move them back to my sandbox, unhide them, and incorporate many of your comments. Look here<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:StevenJ81/sandbox> (perhaps an hour after this email): Just a few points in response to that email:
* The reason I added the introductory remark is that people always keep asking why such-and-such project is allowed (Latin Wikipedia is often cited) when it goes against policy. I added that line to forestall the constant questions. If you don't think it should stay, that's fine, but that's why I put it.
* New point 1 was old point 1, too. (It's not actually a new point.) The only thing that actually changed was a footnote leading to the place where completely new projects can be requested. On the current version of the page you'll see that. I can remove if you want, but it was already there.
* Point 2 included the BCP 47 issue already. But I will remove the 2/3 vote bit.
* Point 3: I will shorten the macrolanguage part.
* Point 4: Concerning ancient languages:
* I was confused, then, by what happened with Coptic. When I went back just now and looked at the discussion on Coptic in July 2017, what I saw didn't really say much on a Coptic Wikipedia; it spoke more to the possibility of a Wikisource and of interface translation, with some people saying that potentially they could see a Coptic Wikipedia being allowed in the future. Then you marked the project on-wiki as "eligible".
* It seems to me that it will be hard to say that Coptic can be eligible but Ancient Greek cannot. I tried to write that provision narrowly, so as to capture Ancient Greek without opening the door to every ancient language in history. I do think, especially given Coptic, that we need to allow Ancient Greek. But if the Committee thinks it's better to say "we decided to allow it notwithstanding policy as an exception", that's OK.
* I think Wikipedia is different from other projects with respect to ancient languages, though. I think it's entirely reasonable to imagine that someone who knows Latin or Ancient Greek might go to those Wikipedias to look up something about Rome or Athens. (That's certainly as reasonable as someone going to Jamaican Creole Wikipedia to look up something about Jamaica.) I don't think I can really see that someone would go to an Ancient Greek or Latin Wikivoyage to look at travel issues, even about Rome or Athens. That's why I handled those differently. Again, though, if Ancient Greek (and Coptic) Wikipedias end up as exceptions, then this becomes a non-issue.
Steven
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Subject: Langcom Digest, Vol 65, Issue 1
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Today's Topics:
1. Proposed changes to LPP (Steven White)
2. Request rejected without discussion (MF-Warburg)
3. Re: Proposed changes to LPP (MF-Warburg)
4. Requests for new languages: Wikisource Literary Chinese
(Steven White)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 20:29:52 +0000
From: Steven White <Koala19890(a)hotmail.com>
To: "WMF LangCom (public)" <langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: [Langcom] Proposed changes to LPP
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The changes I proposed to LPP, which I first shared with the rest of the Committee on the private email list on 3 December 2018, will be posted on Meta for discussion a little later today (my time). The page containing the (proposed) revised policy is here<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.wiki…>; discussion will be on that page's talk page. I intend to leave the discussion up until the end of February, unless discussion really fades out before then.
Steven
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Thank you. I couldn't track down the expert whose name I was given for Guianan Creole, and will continue to work with the community on that. Does anyone have contacts for Mon, or do I need to try to track someone down for that?
Steven
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________________________________
For the record, I have contacted experts for Saraiki and Tacawit.
Am Di., 8. Jan. 2019 um 00:29 Uhr schrieb Steven White <
Koala19890(a)hotmail.com>:
> - 4 others are tentatively approved, but are awaiting language
> verification: Wikipedias in Guianan Creole, Mon and Saraiki, and Wiktionary
> in Tacawit.
>
Hi, all. In 2018, the following happened:
* 13 new project subdomains were created: 5 Wikipedia, 2 Wikisource, 2 Wikivoyage, 1 each of Wiktionary, Wikiversity, Wikiquote and Wikinews.
* 2 others were fully approved, and are awaiting creation: Wikipedia Western Armenian and Wikisource Neapolitan.
* 4 others are tentatively approved, but are awaiting language verification: Wikipedias in Guianan Creole, Mon and Saraiki, and Wiktionary in Tacawit.
Concerning requests for new languages:
* All requests created in 2012 or earlier have now been resolved as "eligible" or "rejected", with the exception of two Wikipedia requests around the Balochi macrolanguage and one of its member languages. (Satdeep Gill was looking into that issue in 2017, but no further progress has been reported. We will circle back to that one shortly.)
* All requests created from the beginning of 2017 through 17 December 2018 have also been addressed. Most were marked as "eligible" or "rejected", but 32 are on hold pending test project activity, while the eligibility of one (Literary Chinese Wikisource) is still under review.
* All requests for Wikibooks, Wikinews, Wikisource and Wikiversity projects have been addressed. Requests for Wikivoyage and Wikiquote projects from 2013 have also been addressed.
* Remaining to do: 72 Wikipedia requests (2013–2016), 21 Wiktionary requests (2013–2016), 9 Wikivoyage (2014–2016), 4 Wikiquote (2015–2016), and four very recent requests.
Concerning requests for project closures:
* All requests for project closures that were pending at the beginning of 2018 were resolved.
* There are two open requests in discussion now at Meta.
Happy new year to all!
Steven
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