Hoi,
The English Wikipedia community is fractioned. Its articles are often too
long to read, It has no interest to collaborate on its quality.
One point of quality is that it has several meanings. The quality of being
concise is often different from the quality to be easy to read. The quality
to be all inclusive is often the same quality that makes it too long to
read.
Given that there is no road map on the inclusion of en.simple, it makes it
impossible to agree to a merge. It is very much not what is wanted by its
own community.
I do agree with Michael a strong KEEP from me. When there is a road map for
a much simpler / easy to digest English Wikipedia we can talk again. I
think it will be more likely that at one stage the en.wp community becomes
interested in measurable quality and fix its lists.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 20 July 2018 at 19:15, Steven White <Koala19890(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
Over the course of the last month (June 19-July 19,
there has been a
lengthy discussion on Meta about a proposal to close Simple English
Wikipedia (SEWP) and merge its contents into English Wikipedia in a way
that would make access to "Simple" content easier, with a higher profile.
I am going to do my best to summarize that discussion here, but I strongly
urge all LangCom members to look at the discussion directly. Page is here
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_Simple_English_Wikipedia_(3)>
.
The following arguments were offered in favor of closing and merging (~35
!votes):
- SEWP offers a "dumbed-down" experience with article accuracy and
reliability inferior to that of English Wikipedia.
- It doesn't address needs of English-as-a-Second-Language (ESL) users
and other presumed core constituencies (like students).
- It is little used compared to English Wikipedia.
- There is no scholarly evidence that SEWP reaches its target
audiences.
- It absorbs volunteer time that could be more productively used on
other projects.
- SEWP is not well enough known as a separate project; content would
be more used (and more useful) if it were integrated into English Wikipedia
better.
- The project contains plenty of spam, and has become a home for users
banned/blocked on other projects.
The following arguments were offered in opposition to closing (~90 !votes):
- Article quality is quite consistent with other projects its size.
Comparison with the uniquely well-developed English Wikipedia is not
necessarily appropriate.
- In some cases, English Wikipedia articles are so difficult and
complex to navigate, they are inaccessible except to experts on the subject.
- Evidence exists that it does address its community, and that it is
used comparably to other projects its size, or more.
- Several people noted its utility to them as non-native speakers.
- There is no evidence that volunteers would work on other projects,
and some risk they would leave WM projects altogether.
- Spam is well controlled, and SEWP's "one-strike" rule allows it to
indef users who are already blocked elsewhere quickly.
- There is no evidence that problems with SEWP are worse than those on
any other project its size. As with any project, if there are problems,
they should be addressed; closing the project is not necessary.
- If the project were closed due to vandalism, that would gives
the vandals a victory (*contra *Deny Recognition
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deny_recognition>).
I offer the following personal comments related to technical and policy
issues:
- Argument in favor of closing that "it isn't a
language"/"doesn't
have a code" is not valid, as this project is grandfathered and has
previously been permitted.
- The community is robust and active. There would be no question about
closing any other project having this level of community activity.
- At a certain level, the fact that this project is in English gives
it wider visibility than is true of most other mid-sized projects.
- I have been active on this project in the past. (I am less so now.)
But I see no evidence that spam and abusers are not well-controlled on this
project. It takes just a bit longer, perhaps, than happens on English
Wikipedia, but then there is no other project in our constellation that is
as active 24/7 as English Wikipedia. It's inherently unfair to compare any
other project to it.
- There is clear consensus from the SEWP community itself to stay open.
- There is no consensus from the English Wikipedia community on if,
and how, it might integrate Simple English content.
- Original proposer agrees that SEWP should not actually be closed
until there is a clear plan for integrating simple content into the
experience of English Wikipedia.
One thing that both sides agree on is that Simple English content would be
better used within Wikipedia if there were closer integration between SEWP
and English Wikipedia. There are different ideas as to how to accomplish
this, and in particular a big difference of opinion as to whether the
connections should be between two independent projects or done as an
integration of Simple English content into English Wikipedia. But everyone
agrees that something along these lines would be worthwhile.
I would offer the following as a preliminary idea on closing this request:
- The proposal to close SEWP is rejected, for several reasons:
- The community is active and robust, and spam and vandalism are
handled in a reasonable way, given the size of the community.
- Because this project existed before the current new projects
policy was put in place, the fact that Simple English (a) does not have its
own language code, and (b) may not be considered "different enough from
English" to have its own wiki, simply is not relevant.
- Because of the preceding two points, there is no policy
justification to close this project.
- Additionally, given that Oppose !votes greatly outnumber Support
!votes, it cannot really even be said that the community has developed a
consensus to recommend that LangCom close this project.
- In the future, requests to close this project that are based on "no
language code" or "not different enough from English" may be closed
speedily. Requests to close this project that are based on "inactivity" or
"vandalism" will probably also be closed speedily, unless things change
pretty radically at SEWP.
- As far as "merger" requests go, LangCom certainly likes the idea of
Simple English content being more accessible from English Wikipedia.
Whether that should be accomplished through merging the projects or merely
better coordination between the two projects is a matter for the
communities to decide, not LangCom. In light of that, we will not entertain
a new request to "close and merge" unless it is presented as the consensus
of both communities, and at least the broad outline of a plan to accomplish
that is in place.
- As long as SEWP remains open, any request to close SE Wiktionary may
be closed speedily. SE Wiktionary plays a specific support role to SEWP,
and can remain open for that purpose in any event (barring uncontrolled
vandalism).
I will leave this proposal here for a week, or until discussion dies down.
Steven
Sent from Outlook <http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
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