From Rohn.
And he *is* a native speaker.
Mark
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch@yahoo.com Date: 25-Jun-2005 21:41 Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Request for creation of Dutch-Low Saxon (nds-nl) To: Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com
--- Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
(forwarded to Reinhart (Ron) Hahn to get his opinion)
[Some basic background on the issue for Ron: As you know there is already a Low Saxon Wikipedia. Somebody just requested a "Dutch Low Saxon" Wikipedia, complaining that nds.wiki is in "German Low Saxon". I expressed a few concerns, not least among them that in a case of a dialect continuum, it will be difficult for us to decide where to draw lines between varieties, and which varieties should get their own Wikipedias.]
Concerns that nobody has responded to yet:
- As I noted before, it is a dialect continuum. Stellingwarfs and
Middel-pommersch are surely not easily mutually intelligible, but Grunnegers and Oostfreesk very well should be.
- Dividing Platt along national boundaries is illogical. If we had an
Oostfreesk Wikipedia, Grunnegers-speakers would surely understand it and vice-versa, even though Grunnegers is in the Netherlands and Oostfreesk is mostly in Germany. There are no definite borders between one and the next, and the national border is just as arbitrary as any.
This would also mean that a man from the tiny village of Laar (in Germany) would use a different Wikipedia than a man from the tiny village of Gramsbergen (in the Netherlands), even though they're about 4km (~2.5mi) apart and their speech is identical. Does this make much sense?
- A case of a dialect continuum is a very new thing for us. We have no
experience with it so far, or we have crammed them all into a single Wikipedia.
Mark
Hi, Mark!
Thanks for forwarding this. It all makes a lot of sense to me.
I would find it very regrettable if the language were separated along the political border, though I know quite a few people that would welcome it.
In the case of Low Saxon, what is at the root of the problem is orthography. In Germany it is based on German principles, in the Netherlands on Dutch principles. While most people in the Netherlands have some German, the Dutch-based system is quite incomprehensible to the majority of people in Germany. However, this is not to say that the German-based system ought to be used. I personally hate it for several reasons, and I am not alone. It is not emotional but because the system is very poorly suited, does not make many necessary phonemic distinctions and thus teaches learners faulty pronunciation, which it has done already. However, this is a very contentious issue, because the vast majority of Low Saxon speakers are older, conservative and narrow-minded, plus uneducated in anything linguistic, hanging on to myths and false assumption, such as orthographic standardization being designed to artificially created a single standard language, when orthographic standardization has nothing to do with language standardization, only with facilitating mutual reading comprehension. So we are up against a monster here.
It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current WikiPlatt team. Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that. But they don't know the language well enough. Much or most of it is "Patentplatt" (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of German. I am not at all opposed to introducing technical neologisms, but there needs to be first of all a firm grasp of the basic language, the grammar and the authentic idiom.
It would be best -- if doable -- to have an international team work on this and use a type of compromise orthography that is easily accessible to all.
Thanks for your engagement in all of this.
Regards, Ron
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Seattle, USA ========== I do not open unexpected or unexplained attachments. Ich öffne keine unerwarteten oder unerklärten Beilagen. Ik maak keen Bilagen apen, vun de ik niks afweten do. Ikj moak kjeene Bieloge op, von dee ikj nuscht weete do. Ik open geen bijlagen waarover ik niets weet. Ek maak geen onverwagte of onverklaarbare aanhangsels oop nie. Jeg åbner ingen uforventede bilag, såfremt der ikke er redegjort for dem. No abro archivos adjuntos de origen desconocido. Não abro arquivos anexados de origem desconhecida. Je n'ouvre jamais les annexes qui ne sont pas annoncées ou décrites. Я не открываю никакие приложения, о которых не знаю ничто.
For more on Missingsch, please see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missingsch or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missingsch
Mark
On 25/06/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
From Rohn.
And he *is* a native speaker.
Mark
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch@yahoo.com Date: 25-Jun-2005 21:41 Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Request for creation of Dutch-Low Saxon (nds-nl) To: Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com
--- Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
(forwarded to Reinhart (Ron) Hahn to get his opinion)
[Some basic background on the issue for Ron: As you know there is already a Low Saxon Wikipedia. Somebody just requested a "Dutch Low Saxon" Wikipedia, complaining that nds.wiki is in "German Low Saxon". I expressed a few concerns, not least among them that in a case of a dialect continuum, it will be difficult for us to decide where to draw lines between varieties, and which varieties should get their own Wikipedias.]
Concerns that nobody has responded to yet:
- As I noted before, it is a dialect continuum. Stellingwarfs and
Middel-pommersch are surely not easily mutually intelligible, but Grunnegers and Oostfreesk very well should be.
- Dividing Platt along national boundaries is illogical. If we had an
Oostfreesk Wikipedia, Grunnegers-speakers would surely understand it and vice-versa, even though Grunnegers is in the Netherlands and Oostfreesk is mostly in Germany. There are no definite borders between one and the next, and the national border is just as arbitrary as any.
This would also mean that a man from the tiny village of Laar (in Germany) would use a different Wikipedia than a man from the tiny village of Gramsbergen (in the Netherlands), even though they're about 4km (~2.5mi) apart and their speech is identical. Does this make much sense?
- A case of a dialect continuum is a very new thing for us. We have no
experience with it so far, or we have crammed them all into a single Wikipedia.
Mark
Hi, Mark!
Thanks for forwarding this. It all makes a lot of sense to me.
I would find it very regrettable if the language were separated along the political border, though I know quite a few people that would welcome it.
In the case of Low Saxon, what is at the root of the problem is orthography. In Germany it is based on German principles, in the Netherlands on Dutch principles. While most people in the Netherlands have some German, the Dutch-based system is quite incomprehensible to the majority of people in Germany. However, this is not to say that the German-based system ought to be used. I personally hate it for several reasons, and I am not alone. It is not emotional but because the system is very poorly suited, does not make many necessary phonemic distinctions and thus teaches learners faulty pronunciation, which it has done already. However, this is a very contentious issue, because the vast majority of Low Saxon speakers are older, conservative and narrow-minded, plus uneducated in anything linguistic, hanging on to myths and false assumption, such as orthographic standardization being designed to artificially created a single standard language, when orthographic standardization has nothing to do with language standardization, only with facilitating mutual reading comprehension. So we are up against a monster here.
It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current WikiPlatt team. Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that. But they don't know the language well enough. Much or most of it is "Patentplatt" (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of German. I am not at all opposed to introducing technical neologisms, but there needs to be first of all a firm grasp of the basic language, the grammar and the authentic idiom.
It would be best -- if doable -- to have an international team work on this and use a type of compromise orthography that is easily accessible to all.
Thanks for your engagement in all of this.
Regards, Ron
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Seattle, USA ========== I do not open unexpected or unexplained attachments. Ich öffne keine unerwarteten oder unerklärten Beilagen. Ik maak keen Bilagen apen, vun de ik niks afweten do. Ikj moak kjeene Bieloge op, von dee ikj nuscht weete do. Ik open geen bijlagen waarover ik niets weet. Ek maak geen onverwagte of onverklaarbare aanhangsels oop nie. Jeg åbner ingen uforventede bilag, såfremt der ikke er redegjort for dem. No abro archivos adjuntos de origen desconocido. Não abro arquivos anexados de origem desconhecida. Je n'ouvre jamais les annexes qui ne sont pas annoncées ou décrites. Я не открываю никакие приложения, о которых не знаю ничто.
-- SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM POSSIT MATERIARI ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
From Rohn.
And he *is* a native speaker.
Mark
Having supported border-croosing projects for Low Saxon for years. How surprising.
Wouter
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