2005/11/23, Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com>om>: Ah, so you are the kind that tolerates this stuff, eh? Mark, I thought I knew ye! No it just means there are others who shouldn't perhaps have been given adminship to work on a wiki whose language they don't speak nor post in. Severeal times he was asked to post in Interlingua or English but not in Dutch which few understood at the ia.wiki Ah, so you check the ia.wiki as well, that's all good, Mark. And why is an article with five words that one's been working on to be deleted at someone's whim? Now you know if you've been frequenting the ia.wiki, as you say, that there were many articles which had indeed many many paragraphs and which were deleted. Articles which showed a lot of edits and personal work... case in point Paolo's work and Jasef's work. These two folks aren't in the habit of just writing 5 words as you say. And if the articles were deleted how is it you knew that some had just 5 words unless you were one of the "saboteurs" who deleted tons of articles yourself??? Only because I know you stand up for minority languages that I would ever doubt you'd do something like that, Mark. But if I see it's you by another username I'm halting your editing priviledges as well until this matter is resolved. I and a lot of other ia.wiki contributors find this situation intolerable. Again, since when do we simply delete articles people are working on only because we deem them "mere stubs"... Isn't the English wiki filled with many articles claiming to be "stubs" and requesting a visitor to help out? You know it's true, Mark, are you simply trying to be the Devils Advocate or are you seriously saying here that all stubs should be deleted? I do. And since when should you question my own right to an opinion? You may, and I should remind you that if you bring this type of attitude to the interlng list there would be quite a vociferous outcry requesting you'd be kicked out. I'm sure. You don't gain any friends by kicking down folks who've been victimized by such abuse as the ia.wiki has had to undergo... you may call them "purges" I call them "abuse" and vandalism. Somewhere in your mind you may believe that. But I'm not putting up with it and I'm sure many others who've volunteered to work on the project and who've reached out to help by giving of their time and effort would also have done likewise. Well, you may have done it differently. But you don't, obviously don't, get the emails from people crying out that their work has disappeared, that someone has been deleting articles, that there's no record of there being such articles in any log and that it feels like someone is definitely sabotaging the progress of the ia.wiki. No, you probably don't see such emails, do you? And when you're totally fed up with the situation what does someone do? Well, I did what I felt would be the right action. I quarantined the user name on this particular wiki and I made mention of it on this list. You, Mark, may handle things differently, that is your prerogative. But if I catch you sabotaging a wiki I'm a sysop in you're rear is canned until the situation gets resolved. ...to put it plainly. No, Mark, not whoever disagrees with me. Whoever deletes other peoples' work and sabotages the progress of a wiki I've dedicated to help out as a sysop. That's right, so please don't start acting like Stalin and don't support vandals who think ia.wiki should be an "animal farm" either. There are good people there, good people with feelings, who've devoted many hours of editing articles for this fine project. Please Mark, consider whose side you're on and why you're defending this intolerable situation. Since, Jay B. [[ia.User:ILVI]]

I am posting on your page because "this is wikipedia .... anyone can edit" . Also I am not posting with venom and spunk. You are the one doing that. If you post such comments in nl.wikipedia you might just draw reactions from other people on nl.wikipedia. And the last time I checked I still was a steward. I am just not that active at the moment because I am having more work than I can handle at the moment. Which is good btw as the months before november I barely had any work. Greetings Walter / Waerth

I think that was basically my point -- that deletion of articles is at the discretion of the individual admin, and if people disagree, he should be de-admined rather than blocked. With the extra power of sysophood comes extra responsibility; however if you abuse it you should simply lose the extra responsibility rather than being banned altogether. Mark On 23/11/05, Anthere <Anthere9(a)yahoo.com> wrote: -- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin

2005/11/24, Ray Saintonge <saintonge(a)telus.net>et>: Well, it was maybe a matte of shoot first then ask questions. I had asked about the situation before from others, and no one seems to know why there were so many deletions and why the article counts were so screwy. Like a hundred thousand words deleted. That wasn't just a few articles with "stubs". And that's only one instance. There are negative new article entries??? What's up with that? And the complaints from disgusted contributors who kept wondering where were articles that they'd edited? And I've experienced it myself. Sometimes I'd think that they were problems with the software, that perhaps there were upgrades, or shutdowns which required the reloading of a database... and what else... I don't know... no one seems to know obviously. What I did find was that Jcb was deleting articles. And he did have a bot active on the wiki. So I posted that I was blocking him until the matter could be resolved with the deletions going on in ia.wiki and that's the situation up to now. Since, Jay B. -- ilooy.gaon(a)gmail.com

2005/11/24, Andre Engels <andreengels(a)gmail.com>om>: These texts were discussed and moved to Wikisource. Then they were moved off Wikimedia and onto discussions on YahooGroups. I kept in touch with Ensjo, Dissident, and Almafeta about some of these issues. The fact remains that hundreds and hundreds of articles were missing and at that no record of deletions. But contributors would make new entries and these would disappear. It has happened to me and to several strong contributors on ia.wiki who are disgusted with the project now. But you notice, I haven't given up and I am active in several wikis and I am asking for a resolution to the matter. So hundreds of thousands of words. This is definitely not some articles with a few words each, and definitely some articles with a lot of text. Are you telling me that you and this German collaborator of yours decided to delete willy-nilly without discussion and with only the traces of Statistics Tables to show your massive deletions? But actually you could have had a discussion with several of us admins, why didn't you? Why not? ...Actually there were sysops around. ...And stuff was getting cleaned up also. ...And vandals blocked. And what is your relationship to Interlingua and who is this German fellow who you were collaborating with? Why didn't you discuss with some of the admins in ia.wiki? That of course was a matter of speech. Jcb did unblock himself right away. But I did post messages on discussion pages on his own Dutch page and on my discussion page and elsewhere on ia.wiki and want the situation to be resolved. Actually, I didn't get rid of anything after all, did I, and now it seems you had a hand in ia.wiki all along without discussing anything with any admins that I know of. So I'm pleased that things are coming out now. BTW who is the German fellow you were collaborating with? And why isn't he communicating with the admins either? Since, Jay B. [[ia:Usator:ILVI]] -- ilooy.gaon(a)gmail.com

On 11/24/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com> wrote: Yes! Call the Mediawiki software guys, because here is something impossible happening! Show them what articles disappeared, and let them be puzzled about how they disappeared without anything being shown in the logs. Well, we are supposed to only work based on what the local wikipedias want. However, as I stated, there WAS no local wikipedia community at the time. There were 117 total edit actions in July. The number of new articles a day had not gotten above 0,5 for months. Actually, he was made an admin especially for this occasion, because these articles were hanging around on the wiki, and there was no admin at the time to do the work. He volunteered, and he got the job. He did not discuss with the admins because there WAS no admin to discuss with. And there wasn't much of anyone else either. -- Andre Engels, andreengels(a)gmail.com ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels

On 11/24/05, ilooy <ilooy.gaon(a)gmail.com> wrote: This I find hard to believe. If it is really the case, then you should get the programmers of the Wikimedia software. Undoubtedly they would be very interested to hear of even ONE article being lost without a trace, let alone if it happens regularly as you claim. The Wiki was mostly dead at the time. There was nobody to discuss with. I had Because there were no sysops around at the time. Who? Nope, was not. As I said before, there were none. For the last time, there were none. -- Andre Engels, andreengels(a)gmail.com ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels

2005/11/24, ilooy <ilooy.gaon(a)gmail.com>om>: Wake up! You are talking July and August _2004_ here! That's not last week, not last month, that's more than one year ago! And those deletions were not done by Jcb, he was not even on Wikipedia then! Well, that same can be said about you. And apparently YOU don't know what's been going on either. And you're starting to annoy me. You find a sysop deleting pages, and: 1. You DON'T talk with him 2. You DON'T ask for his removal 3. You DON'T bring the pages back 4. You DO block him, That's one wrong thing done, two right things not done. Then you throw shouts at those who notify that. And then you give him blame for things he cannot possibly have done! The facts of the matter are: * Jcb has deleted some pages * ILVI has blocked Jcb That's about the only thing we can be sure of. Also some things that definitely are NOT true, but that ILVI has claimed: * Jcb did NOT do the deletions of July-August 2004. He has been a moderator only since February/March 2005 * Jcb did NOT delete anonymously. Deleting anonymously is simply impossible. -- Andre Engels, andreengels(a)gmail.com ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels

2005/11/24, Andre Engels <andreengels(a)gmail.com>om>: That was one example of massive deletions. There are other deletions which went on on a regular basis which meant many times there were minus new entries, figure that one out on the tables. I've written before that this was going on. I posted messages everywhere I could to tell Jcb I was blocking him only until the situation was resolved. There are no records I can find of who or what bot has been making deletions other than Jcb. And he is the only other sysop I didn't know well enough at the wiki. He also has a bot at work on the wiki, and no other admins do. I wanted to put a stop to the situation and look into it. No, I noticed that he was the admin who was actively deleting pages. I noticed that he was the only admin claiming to have a bot at work in the wiki. That's right. Exactly. I didn't claim that Jcb did those particular deletions. I stated that this type of deletions were troubling and have been going on for quite a while. When it was obvious that other admins were not deleting pages and did not have a bot at work on the wiki, the next step for me was to put a block on him, although Anthere said it probably doesn't work, but I want to know if Jcb had anything to do with not only deletions but disappearences of new articles and edits. And why are there so many negative messages regarding this matter? What would other wikis who have had this unexplained disappearences have done? Since, Jay B. [[User:ILVI]] -- ilooy.gaon(a)gmail.com

2005/11/24, Andre Engels <andreengels(a)gmail.com>om>: Dear Andre, No, I didn't get into a rage. I've had contact with Almafeta and Dissident many times. Jcb was not discussing his deletions with others and this caused a lot of strong contributors to leave the wiki. We're talking of strange things happening with the wiki. And if a bot of unexplained goings on is at work in it then this would be cause for alarm. Jcb is the only one with a bot on the wiki. I don't know of any other wiki I'm a member of where hundreds of thousands of words have been deleted and there's no record except the Statistics Table to show that there were articles, there were new entries and then they were gone, plain gone. And this has been going on for a while. And then I'm told I'm an inactive user in the wiki to boot! I've been active against vandalism attacks and I've been correcting and editing articles and why are entries to this effect missing on logs. Why are there several contributors in the same situation? Maybe Jcb didn't have a part in the massive deletions that were going on, but he was one who wasn't complaining about it, and other admins and several contributors were. I've got nothing personal against Jcb, I appreciate he'd be willing to help with the ia.wiki but I did notice things that threw up a red flag and I want the situation resolved. Since, Jay B. [[User:ILVI]]

2005/11/25, Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com>om>: That's indeed very strange... Where would he get that idea? Not to mention that those IPs don't have any edits on ia:, so where did he get the numbers anyway? Could you please explain, ILVI? -- Andre Engels, andreengels(a)gmail.com ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels

On 11/25/05, oscar <oscar.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote: Just FYI this is not completely true, see e.g. http://tools.wikimedia.de/~kate/cgi-bin/archive_contribs?user=86.195.145.5&… -- [[cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec]]