Dear Mark W.,
At 05:09 23/02/2005 +0000, Mark Williamson wrote to Stan Shebs:
"Thanks" for the advice.
I have some for you, too - cool off a bit, and quit acting so condescending. It's very irritating, even in small doses. And as I have noted before, while friendly advice is usually appreciated by me, when it is given in a tone like this it really doesn't help anybody.
As someone who has supported you before (even though I have no way of telling whether you appreciated it), I ask you to break a little bit there -- Stan Shebs' advice wasn't *that* bad, actually... It is easy for us all to sound a bit condescending at times (and you probably think I sound condescending right now), but you sound more than a bit condescending (and, frankly, a bit irritating (since you brought up that term)) yourself at times, you know ....
I think this may be a good time for you to step back a bit and rethink your debating strategies.
Listen to Stan -- and give what he said some thought. It won't hurt. You don't need to post all your thoughts about it here (or anywhere else, at that) -- but please try to listen. Maybe you find that he isn't right. But in that case, maybe you could make your own life easier by finding out why/how people misunderstand you -- and then find ways of avoiding these misunderstandings...?
I appreciate very much your struggle for "small"-language wikipedias, Mark. I have also seen you contribute in many other great ways., and I hope that you will continue the struggle for Wikipedia to become ever more democratic and diverse within the limits of truth and humanism. But in this struggle, one needs both a strong conviction AND a level of humility (!) and flexibility (!!!) that allows people not to be driven away from the good cause.
I have defended you before, and will be happy to do so again as long as I see that you do positive things for Wikipedia. But sometimes it is time to listen and learn for all of us -- even for you.
Respectfully,
Olve
___________________
Olve Utne http://utne.nvg.org
I didn't say he didn't have a good point. I just said the method of delivery wasn't good.
So it wasn't entirely lost on me, I just got a bit pissed at Stan for the way he said it.
Mark
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:17:42 -0500, Olve Utne utne@nvg.org wrote:
Dear Mark W.,
At 05:09 23/02/2005 +0000, Mark Williamson wrote to Stan Shebs:
"Thanks" for the advice.
I have some for you, too - cool off a bit, and quit acting so condescending. It's very irritating, even in small doses. And as I have noted before, while friendly advice is usually appreciated by me, when it is given in a tone like this it really doesn't help anybody.
As someone who has supported you before (even though I have no way of telling whether you appreciated it), I ask you to break a little bit there -- Stan Shebs' advice wasn't *that* bad, actually... It is easy for us all to sound a bit condescending at times (and you probably think I sound condescending right now), but you sound more than a bit condescending (and, frankly, a bit irritating (since you brought up that term)) yourself at times, you know ....
I think this may be a good time for you to step back a bit and rethink your debating strategies.
Listen to Stan -- and give what he said some thought. It won't hurt. You don't need to post all your thoughts about it here (or anywhere else, at that) -- but please try to listen. Maybe you find that he isn't right. But in that case, maybe you could make your own life easier by finding out why/how people misunderstand you -- and then find ways of avoiding these misunderstandings...?
I appreciate very much your struggle for "small"-language wikipedias, Mark. I have also seen you contribute in many other great ways., and I hope that you will continue the struggle for Wikipedia to become ever more democratic and diverse within the limits of truth and humanism. But in this struggle, one needs both a strong conviction AND a level of humility (!) and flexibility (!!!) that allows people not to be driven away from the good cause.
I have defended you before, and will be happy to do so again as long as I see that you do positive things for Wikipedia. But sometimes it is time to listen and learn for all of us -- even for you.
Respectfully,
Olve
Olve Utne http://utne.nvg.org
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Oh, and I know I can at times be irritating and condescending (although this isn't usually intentional, and when it is, well, you'd better watch out). But when somebody makes a point of telling me something they dislike specifically or warns me about something about them, I don't go flagrantly violating it.
Everybody can be irritating, but it takes a true master to send a condescending message of advice to one who has in the past said he doesn't much appreciate advice (I have enough advice as it is - believe me, I've heard all of this before), especially when it's delivered in such a manner.
Mark
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:25:17 -0700, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I didn't say he didn't have a good point. I just said the method of delivery wasn't good.
So it wasn't entirely lost on me, I just got a bit pissed at Stan for the way he said it.
Mark
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:17:42 -0500, Olve Utne utne@nvg.org wrote:
Dear Mark W.,
At 05:09 23/02/2005 +0000, Mark Williamson wrote to Stan Shebs:
"Thanks" for the advice.
I have some for you, too - cool off a bit, and quit acting so condescending. It's very irritating, even in small doses. And as I have noted before, while friendly advice is usually appreciated by me, when it is given in a tone like this it really doesn't help anybody.
As someone who has supported you before (even though I have no way of telling whether you appreciated it), I ask you to break a little bit there -- Stan Shebs' advice wasn't *that* bad, actually... It is easy for us all to sound a bit condescending at times (and you probably think I sound condescending right now), but you sound more than a bit condescending (and, frankly, a bit irritating (since you brought up that term)) yourself at times, you know ....
I think this may be a good time for you to step back a bit and rethink your debating strategies.
Listen to Stan -- and give what he said some thought. It won't hurt. You don't need to post all your thoughts about it here (or anywhere else, at that) -- but please try to listen. Maybe you find that he isn't right. But in that case, maybe you could make your own life easier by finding out why/how people misunderstand you -- and then find ways of avoiding these misunderstandings...?
I appreciate very much your struggle for "small"-language wikipedias, Mark. I have also seen you contribute in many other great ways., and I hope that you will continue the struggle for Wikipedia to become ever more democratic and diverse within the limits of truth and humanism. But in this struggle, one needs both a strong conviction AND a level of humility (!) and flexibility (!!!) that allows people not to be driven away from the good cause.
I have defended you before, and will be happy to do so again as long as I see that you do positive things for Wikipedia. But sometimes it is time to listen and learn for all of us -- even for you.
Respectfully,
Olve
Olve Utne http://utne.nvg.org
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Mark Williamson wrote:
Oh, and I know I can at times be irritating and condescending
Finally something we agree upon!
Mark, For your information, I have been trying quietly to find someone to create the Ossetian wikipedia. I have been refused several times because they are nauseated by all the huha around it. Literally: you are involved so it must be controversial. I have already spoken with someone on the board and they say "ask someone as it fullfills the requirements".
So I do not care that much what you say but at this moment you have the Midas touch in reverse; everything you touch is considered shit.
Groetjes, GerardM
Mark Williamson wrote:
Oh, and I know I can at times be irritating and condescending (although this isn't usually intentional, and when it is, well, you'd better watch out). But when somebody makes a point of telling me something they dislike specifically or warns me about something about them, I don't go flagrantly violating it.
Everybody can be irritating, but it takes a true master to send a condescending message of advice to one who has in the past said he doesn't much appreciate advice (I have enough advice as it is - believe me, I've heard all of this before), especially when it's delivered in such a manner.
Mark
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:25:17 -0700, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I didn't say he didn't have a good point. I just said the method of delivery wasn't good.
So it wasn't entirely lost on me, I just got a bit pissed at Stan for the way he said it.
Mark
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:17:42 -0500, Olve Utne utne@nvg.org wrote:
Dear Mark W.,
At 05:09 23/02/2005 +0000, Mark Williamson wrote to Stan Shebs:
"Thanks" for the advice.
I have some for you, too - cool off a bit, and quit acting so condescending. It's very irritating, even in small doses. And as I have noted before, while friendly advice is usually appreciated by me, when it is given in a tone like this it really doesn't help anybody.
As someone who has supported you before (even though I have no way of telling whether you appreciated it), I ask you to break a little bit there -- Stan Shebs' advice wasn't *that* bad, actually... It is easy for us all to sound a bit condescending at times (and you probably think I sound condescending right now), but you sound more than a bit condescending (and, frankly, a bit irritating (since you brought up that term)) yourself at times, you know ....
I think this may be a good time for you to step back a bit and rethink your debating strategies.
Listen to Stan -- and give what he said some thought. It won't hurt. You don't need to post all your thoughts about it here (or anywhere else, at that) -- but please try to listen. Maybe you find that he isn't right. But in that case, maybe you could make your own life easier by finding out why/how people misunderstand you -- and then find ways of avoiding these misunderstandings...?
I appreciate very much your struggle for "small"-language wikipedias, Mark. I have also seen you contribute in many other great ways., and I hope that you will continue the struggle for Wikipedia to become ever more democratic and diverse within the limits of truth and humanism. But in this struggle, one needs both a strong conviction AND a level of humility (!) and flexibility (!!!) that allows people not to be driven away from the good cause.
I have defended you before, and will be happy to do so again as long as I see that you do positive things for Wikipedia. But sometimes it is time to listen and learn for all of us -- even for you.
Respectfully,
Olve
Olve Utne http://utne.nvg.org
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
I had suspected this.
Again you are not dealing with the real problem.
The real problem is that the people you are talking to are being very shallow. The Ossetic Wikipedia has not been controversial. To assume it must be bad because I was involved is not only offensive but just plain idiotic.
Such an attitude is not appropriate in any situation. As before your best option will be to request it personally from Brion. When others give me shit, he is usually willing to create Wikipedias quietly as long as the issues surrounding it have been resolved (ie, he was reluctant to create fur: until he found out a native speaker had eventually shown up). Brion is a great person and doesn't suffer from the same illogicality and delusions which seem to be common now within this operation (I now generally avoid en.wikipedia because it has gone from what I believe was a truly healthy environment and was making great progress to a toxic environment which seems to me to be going slowly backwards, due not in the least to corruption at the top - there is no admin accountability, and while this is good in that the majority [ie, the usually-good admins] can't be bogged down by bogus complaints, it is bad in that those admins who cause more harm than good often simply stay as they are until they really cross the line and it's with somebody who is brave enough to complain - but even many non-admins of course seem to have this sort of toxic attitude too - wikihate seems to be slowly devouring wikilove).
I believe that while a portion of my bad reputation is deserved, the great majority of it is due to hype and exaggeration. For example, Jimbo seems to believe I just want zh.wikipedia to split up for whatever frivolous reason I can find. IIRC when a working converter was first showcased by Zhengzhu is when the rhetoric actually toned down and compromise was found - I didn't say "Well conversion even if it'ss perfect isn't good enough, we need separate Wikipedias no matter what".
And I know there is no lack of talk about me behind my back - I'm actually in on quite a bit of it (you know who you are). This all helps to formulate a "mob mentality" which changes things from "he's annoying and he's done a couple of bad things which he apologised for and some things which were debatable, as well as some relatively good contributions" to "he burned our crops, raped our women, and enslaved our children! get him!". (note: since I have said something similar to some people in the past and they have been extremely uncool in believing I was paranoid or stupid enough to actually think they thought or said stuff about me raping women and burning crops... I feel it is nessecary to make it known that this is an extreme exaggeration on my part).
I'm just thankful that, in addition to a pile of crap which is partly of my own making and partly due to the crap-recycling machine known as The General Population, I actually have people I can count on and trust, and who understand me and whom I can count as true friends. To those one or two of you who pretended to be my friends and then turned into some of my worst enemies, really, that's disappointing but there were signs from the beginning and it was naïve of me to not notice them.
I have also noticed a great deal of backstabbing (you know who you are) and broken promises (you also know who you are) in addition to lies (ykwya), slander (ykwya), harassment (ykwya), and complaints about me to authorities from cowardly individuals who are not willing to say to my face that I irritate them (if you have a problem with me, I am perfectly willing to hear that and if you're not excessively condescending and can respect me as I try to respect you, I will accept what you have to say and try to improve on it, as I have shown in the past in the very few cases where somebody has come up to me politely and told me what others would only tell to Tom W).
I am also greatly appreciative of the support I have received from many people, however small or tentative, because it often helps me to look at things in perspective and take a step back and realise that not everybody is a jackass and to let things go for a few weeks.
Mark
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:17:55 +0100, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Mark, For your information, I have been trying quietly to find someone to create the Ossetian wikipedia. I have been refused several times because they are nauseated by all the huha around it. Literally: you are involved so it must be controversial. I have already spoken with someone on the board and they say "ask someone as it fullfills the requirements".
So I do not care that much what you say but at this moment you have the Midas touch in reverse; everything you touch is considered shit.
Groetjes, GerardM
Mark Williamson wrote:
Oh, and I know I can at times be irritating and condescending (although this isn't usually intentional, and when it is, well, you'd better watch out). But when somebody makes a point of telling me something they dislike specifically or warns me about something about them, I don't go flagrantly violating it.
Everybody can be irritating, but it takes a true master to send a condescending message of advice to one who has in the past said he doesn't much appreciate advice (I have enough advice as it is - believe me, I've heard all of this before), especially when it's delivered in such a manner.
Mark
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:25:17 -0700, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I didn't say he didn't have a good point. I just said the method of delivery wasn't good.
So it wasn't entirely lost on me, I just got a bit pissed at Stan for the way he said it.
Mark
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:17:42 -0500, Olve Utne utne@nvg.org wrote:
Dear Mark W.,
At 05:09 23/02/2005 +0000, Mark Williamson wrote to Stan Shebs:
"Thanks" for the advice.
I have some for you, too - cool off a bit, and quit acting so condescending. It's very irritating, even in small doses. And as I have noted before, while friendly advice is usually appreciated by me, when it is given in a tone like this it really doesn't help anybody.
As someone who has supported you before (even though I have no way of telling whether you appreciated it), I ask you to break a little bit there -- Stan Shebs' advice wasn't *that* bad, actually... It is easy for us all to sound a bit condescending at times (and you probably think I sound condescending right now), but you sound more than a bit condescending (and, frankly, a bit irritating (since you brought up that term)) yourself at times, you know ....
I think this may be a good time for you to step back a bit and rethink your debating strategies.
Listen to Stan -- and give what he said some thought. It won't hurt. You don't need to post all your thoughts about it here (or anywhere else, at that) -- but please try to listen. Maybe you find that he isn't right. But in that case, maybe you could make your own life easier by finding out why/how people misunderstand you -- and then find ways of avoiding these misunderstandings...?
I appreciate very much your struggle for "small"-language wikipedias, Mark. I have also seen you contribute in many other great ways., and I hope that you will continue the struggle for Wikipedia to become ever more democratic and diverse within the limits of truth and humanism. But in this struggle, one needs both a strong conviction AND a level of humility (!) and flexibility (!!!) that allows people not to be driven away from the good cause.
I have defended you before, and will be happy to do so again as long as I see that you do positive things for Wikipedia. But sometimes it is time to listen and learn for all of us -- even for you.
Respectfully,
Olve
Olve Utne http://utne.nvg.org
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Mark, The os:wikipedia is seen to be controversial because you are involved. You admit that you know/suspect this. Why then do you do what you do when you know that what you do makes things worse for others. Why do you not tone down your voice. Why do you not make sure that people start to appreciate you. THAT is what Stan among others says you are capable off when you apply yourself.
Blame others, blame the bad environment on en: but when do you start looking at yourself and DO something about it?
Groetjes, GerardM
Mark Williamson wrote:
I had suspected this.
Again you are not dealing with the real problem.
The real problem is that the people you are talking to are being very shallow. The Ossetic Wikipedia has not been controversial. To assume it must be bad because I was involved is not only offensive but just plain idiotic.
Such an attitude is not appropriate in any situation. As before your best option will be to request it personally from Brion. When others give me shit, he is usually willing to create Wikipedias quietly as long as the issues surrounding it have been resolved (ie, he was reluctant to create fur: until he found out a native speaker had eventually shown up). Brion is a great person and doesn't suffer from the same illogicality and delusions which seem to be common now within this operation (I now generally avoid en.wikipedia because it has gone from what I believe was a truly healthy environment and was making great progress to a toxic environment which seems to me to be going slowly backwards, due not in the least to corruption at the top - there is no admin accountability, and while this is good in that the majority [ie, the usually-good admins] can't be bogged down by bogus complaints, it is bad in that those admins who cause more harm than good often simply stay as they are until they really cross the line and it's with somebody who is brave enough to complain - but even many non-admins of course seem to have this sort of toxic attitude too - wikihate seems to be slowly devouring wikilove).
I believe that while a portion of my bad reputation is deserved, the great majority of it is due to hype and exaggeration. For example, Jimbo seems to believe I just want zh.wikipedia to split up for whatever frivolous reason I can find. IIRC when a working converter was first showcased by Zhengzhu is when the rhetoric actually toned down and compromise was found - I didn't say "Well conversion even if it'ss perfect isn't good enough, we need separate Wikipedias no matter what".
And I know there is no lack of talk about me behind my back - I'm actually in on quite a bit of it (you know who you are). This all helps to formulate a "mob mentality" which changes things from "he's annoying and he's done a couple of bad things which he apologised for and some things which were debatable, as well as some relatively good contributions" to "he burned our crops, raped our women, and enslaved our children! get him!". (note: since I have said something similar to some people in the past and they have been extremely uncool in believing I was paranoid or stupid enough to actually think they thought or said stuff about me raping women and burning crops... I feel it is nessecary to make it known that this is an extreme exaggeration on my part).
I'm just thankful that, in addition to a pile of crap which is partly of my own making and partly due to the crap-recycling machine known as The General Population, I actually have people I can count on and trust, and who understand me and whom I can count as true friends. To those one or two of you who pretended to be my friends and then turned into some of my worst enemies, really, that's disappointing but there were signs from the beginning and it was naïve of me to not notice them.
I have also noticed a great deal of backstabbing (you know who you are) and broken promises (you also know who you are) in addition to lies (ykwya), slander (ykwya), harassment (ykwya), and complaints about me to authorities from cowardly individuals who are not willing to say to my face that I irritate them (if you have a problem with me, I am perfectly willing to hear that and if you're not excessively condescending and can respect me as I try to respect you, I will accept what you have to say and try to improve on it, as I have shown in the past in the very few cases where somebody has come up to me politely and told me what others would only tell to Tom W).
I am also greatly appreciative of the support I have received from many people, however small or tentative, because it often helps me to look at things in perspective and take a step back and realise that not everybody is a jackass and to let things go for a few weeks.
Mark
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:17:55 +0100, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Mark, For your information, I have been trying quietly to find someone to create the Ossetian wikipedia. I have been refused several times because they are nauseated by all the huha around it. Literally: you are involved so it must be controversial. I have already spoken with someone on the board and they say "ask someone as it fullfills the requirements".
So I do not care that much what you say but at this moment you have the Midas touch in reverse; everything you touch is considered shit.
Groetjes, GerardM
Mark Williamson wrote:
Oh, and I know I can at times be irritating and condescending (although this isn't usually intentional, and when it is, well, you'd better watch out). But when somebody makes a point of telling me something they dislike specifically or warns me about something about them, I don't go flagrantly violating it.
Everybody can be irritating, but it takes a true master to send a condescending message of advice to one who has in the past said he doesn't much appreciate advice (I have enough advice as it is - believe me, I've heard all of this before), especially when it's delivered in such a manner.
Mark
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:25:17 -0700, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I didn't say he didn't have a good point. I just said the method of delivery wasn't good.
So it wasn't entirely lost on me, I just got a bit pissed at Stan for the way he said it.
Mark
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:17:42 -0500, Olve Utne utne@nvg.org wrote:
Dear Mark W.,
At 05:09 23/02/2005 +0000, Mark Williamson wrote to Stan Shebs:
"Thanks" for the advice.
I have some for you, too - cool off a bit, and quit acting so condescending. It's very irritating, even in small doses. And as I have noted before, while friendly advice is usually appreciated by me, when it is given in a tone like this it really doesn't help anybody.
As someone who has supported you before (even though I have no way of telling whether you appreciated it), I ask you to break a little bit there -- Stan Shebs' advice wasn't *that* bad, actually... It is easy for us all to sound a bit condescending at times (and you probably think I sound condescending right now), but you sound more than a bit condescending (and, frankly, a bit irritating (since you brought up that term)) yourself at times, you know ....
I think this may be a good time for you to step back a bit and rethink your debating strategies.
Listen to Stan -- and give what he said some thought. It won't hurt. You don't need to post all your thoughts about it here (or anywhere else, at that) -- but please try to listen. Maybe you find that he isn't right. But in that case, maybe you could make your own life easier by finding out why/how people misunderstand you -- and then find ways of avoiding these misunderstandings...?
I appreciate very much your struggle for "small"-language wikipedias, Mark. I have also seen you contribute in many other great ways., and I hope that you will continue the struggle for Wikipedia to become ever more democratic and diverse within the limits of truth and humanism. But in this struggle, one needs both a strong conviction AND a level of humility (!) and flexibility (!!!) that allows people not to be driven away from the good cause.
I have defended you before, and will be happy to do so again as long as I see that you do positive things for Wikipedia. But sometimes it is time to listen and learn for all of us -- even for you.
Respectfully,
Olve
Olve Utne http://utne.nvg.org
I have tried before, but nobody notices, nobody cares.
In fact, if anything, things have gotten worse for me whenever I have shut up.
Mark
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:54:11 +0100, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Mark, The os:wikipedia is seen to be controversial because you are involved. You admit that you know/suspect this. Why then do you do what you do when you know that what you do makes things worse for others. Why do you not tone down your voice. Why do you not make sure that people start to appreciate you. THAT is what Stan among others says you are capable off when you apply yourself.
Blame others, blame the bad environment on en: but when do you start looking at yourself and DO something about it?
Groetjes, GerardM
Mark Williamson wrote:
I had suspected this.
Again you are not dealing with the real problem.
The real problem is that the people you are talking to are being very shallow. The Ossetic Wikipedia has not been controversial. To assume it must be bad because I was involved is not only offensive but just plain idiotic.
Such an attitude is not appropriate in any situation. As before your best option will be to request it personally from Brion. When others give me shit, he is usually willing to create Wikipedias quietly as long as the issues surrounding it have been resolved (ie, he was reluctant to create fur: until he found out a native speaker had eventually shown up). Brion is a great person and doesn't suffer from the same illogicality and delusions which seem to be common now within this operation (I now generally avoid en.wikipedia because it has gone from what I believe was a truly healthy environment and was making great progress to a toxic environment which seems to me to be going slowly backwards, due not in the least to corruption at the top - there is no admin accountability, and while this is good in that the majority [ie, the usually-good admins] can't be bogged down by bogus complaints, it is bad in that those admins who cause more harm than good often simply stay as they are until they really cross the line and it's with somebody who is brave enough to complain - but even many non-admins of course seem to have this sort of toxic attitude too - wikihate seems to be slowly devouring wikilove).
I believe that while a portion of my bad reputation is deserved, the great majority of it is due to hype and exaggeration. For example, Jimbo seems to believe I just want zh.wikipedia to split up for whatever frivolous reason I can find. IIRC when a working converter was first showcased by Zhengzhu is when the rhetoric actually toned down and compromise was found - I didn't say "Well conversion even if it'ss perfect isn't good enough, we need separate Wikipedias no matter what".
And I know there is no lack of talk about me behind my back - I'm actually in on quite a bit of it (you know who you are). This all helps to formulate a "mob mentality" which changes things from "he's annoying and he's done a couple of bad things which he apologised for and some things which were debatable, as well as some relatively good contributions" to "he burned our crops, raped our women, and enslaved our children! get him!". (note: since I have said something similar to some people in the past and they have been extremely uncool in believing I was paranoid or stupid enough to actually think they thought or said stuff about me raping women and burning crops... I feel it is nessecary to make it known that this is an extreme exaggeration on my part).
I'm just thankful that, in addition to a pile of crap which is partly of my own making and partly due to the crap-recycling machine known as The General Population, I actually have people I can count on and trust, and who understand me and whom I can count as true friends. To those one or two of you who pretended to be my friends and then turned into some of my worst enemies, really, that's disappointing but there were signs from the beginning and it was naïve of me to not notice them.
I have also noticed a great deal of backstabbing (you know who you are) and broken promises (you also know who you are) in addition to lies (ykwya), slander (ykwya), harassment (ykwya), and complaints about me to authorities from cowardly individuals who are not willing to say to my face that I irritate them (if you have a problem with me, I am perfectly willing to hear that and if you're not excessively condescending and can respect me as I try to respect you, I will accept what you have to say and try to improve on it, as I have shown in the past in the very few cases where somebody has come up to me politely and told me what others would only tell to Tom W).
I am also greatly appreciative of the support I have received from many people, however small or tentative, because it often helps me to look at things in perspective and take a step back and realise that not everybody is a jackass and to let things go for a few weeks.
Mark
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:17:55 +0100, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Mark, For your information, I have been trying quietly to find someone to create the Ossetian wikipedia. I have been refused several times because they are nauseated by all the huha around it. Literally: you are involved so it must be controversial. I have already spoken with someone on the board and they say "ask someone as it fullfills the requirements".
So I do not care that much what you say but at this moment you have the Midas touch in reverse; everything you touch is considered shit.
Groetjes, GerardM
Mark Williamson wrote:
Oh, and I know I can at times be irritating and condescending (although this isn't usually intentional, and when it is, well, you'd better watch out). But when somebody makes a point of telling me something they dislike specifically or warns me about something about them, I don't go flagrantly violating it.
Everybody can be irritating, but it takes a true master to send a condescending message of advice to one who has in the past said he doesn't much appreciate advice (I have enough advice as it is - believe me, I've heard all of this before), especially when it's delivered in such a manner.
Mark
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:25:17 -0700, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I didn't say he didn't have a good point. I just said the method of delivery wasn't good.
So it wasn't entirely lost on me, I just got a bit pissed at Stan for the way he said it.
Mark
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:17:42 -0500, Olve Utne utne@nvg.org wrote:
Dear Mark W.,
At 05:09 23/02/2005 +0000, Mark Williamson wrote to Stan Shebs:
>"Thanks" for the advice. > >I have some for you, too - cool off a bit, and quit acting so >condescending. It's very irritating, even in small doses. And as I have >noted before, while friendly advice is usually appreciated by me, when it >is given in a tone like this it really doesn't help anybody. > > > > As someone who has supported you before (even though I have no way of telling whether you appreciated it), I ask you to break a little bit there -- Stan Shebs' advice wasn't *that* bad, actually... It is easy for us all to sound a bit condescending at times (and you probably think I sound condescending right now), but you sound more than a bit condescending (and, frankly, a bit irritating (since you brought up that term)) yourself at times, you know ....
I think this may be a good time for you to step back a bit and rethink your debating strategies.
Listen to Stan -- and give what he said some thought. It won't hurt. You don't need to post all your thoughts about it here (or anywhere else, at that) -- but please try to listen. Maybe you find that he isn't right. But in that case, maybe you could make your own life easier by finding out why/how people misunderstand you -- and then find ways of avoiding these misunderstandings...?
I appreciate very much your struggle for "small"-language wikipedias, Mark. I have also seen you contribute in many other great ways., and I hope that you will continue the struggle for Wikipedia to become ever more democratic and diverse within the limits of truth and humanism. But in this struggle, one needs both a strong conviction AND a level of humility (!) and flexibility (!!!) that allows people not to be driven away from the good cause.
I have defended you before, and will be happy to do so again as long as I see that you do positive things for Wikipedia. But sometimes it is time to listen and learn for all of us -- even for you.
Respectfully,
Olve
Olve Utne http://utne.nvg.org
Mark, How can things get worse when the things that you stand for do NOT happen because you are involved. I have nothing with Ossetian, only because I know they fulfill the requirements and because I know why things do not happen do I involve myself.
When you try to be nice for a week nobody notices, when you behave for a month people start to relax, when you start to make friendly overtures in two months, people may be willing to listen to you again. But keep the volume down please.
Thanks, GerardM
Mark Williamson wrote:
I have tried before, but nobody notices, nobody cares.
In fact, if anything, things have gotten worse for me whenever I have shut up.
Mark
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:54:11 +0100, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Mark, The os:wikipedia is seen to be controversial because you are involved. You admit that you know/suspect this. Why then do you do what you do when you know that what you do makes things worse for others. Why do you not tone down your voice. Why do you not make sure that people start to appreciate you. THAT is what Stan among others says you are capable off when you apply yourself.
Blame others, blame the bad environment on en: but when do you start looking at yourself and DO something about it?
Groetjes, GerardM
Mark Williamson wrote:
I had suspected this.
Again you are not dealing with the real problem.
The real problem is that the people you are talking to are being very shallow. The Ossetic Wikipedia has not been controversial. To assume it must be bad because I was involved is not only offensive but just plain idiotic.
Such an attitude is not appropriate in any situation. As before your best option will be to request it personally from Brion. When others give me shit, he is usually willing to create Wikipedias quietly as long as the issues surrounding it have been resolved (ie, he was reluctant to create fur: until he found out a native speaker had eventually shown up). Brion is a great person and doesn't suffer from the same illogicality and delusions which seem to be common now within this operation (I now generally avoid en.wikipedia because it has gone
from what I believe was a truly healthy environment and was making
great progress to a toxic environment which seems to me to be going slowly backwards, due not in the least to corruption at the top - there is no admin accountability, and while this is good in that the majority [ie, the usually-good admins] can't be bogged down by bogus complaints, it is bad in that those admins who cause more harm than good often simply stay as they are until they really cross the line and it's with somebody who is brave enough to complain - but even many non-admins of course seem to have this sort of toxic attitude too - wikihate seems to be slowly devouring wikilove).
I believe that while a portion of my bad reputation is deserved, the great majority of it is due to hype and exaggeration. For example, Jimbo seems to believe I just want zh.wikipedia to split up for whatever frivolous reason I can find. IIRC when a working converter was first showcased by Zhengzhu is when the rhetoric actually toned down and compromise was found - I didn't say "Well conversion even if it'ss perfect isn't good enough, we need separate Wikipedias no matter what".
And I know there is no lack of talk about me behind my back - I'm actually in on quite a bit of it (you know who you are). This all helps to formulate a "mob mentality" which changes things from "he's annoying and he's done a couple of bad things which he apologised for and some things which were debatable, as well as some relatively good contributions" to "he burned our crops, raped our women, and enslaved our children! get him!". (note: since I have said something similar to some people in the past and they have been extremely uncool in believing I was paranoid or stupid enough to actually think they thought or said stuff about me raping women and burning crops... I feel it is nessecary to make it known that this is an extreme exaggeration on my part).
I'm just thankful that, in addition to a pile of crap which is partly of my own making and partly due to the crap-recycling machine known as The General Population, I actually have people I can count on and trust, and who understand me and whom I can count as true friends. To those one or two of you who pretended to be my friends and then turned into some of my worst enemies, really, that's disappointing but there were signs from the beginning and it was naïve of me to not notice them.
I have also noticed a great deal of backstabbing (you know who you are) and broken promises (you also know who you are) in addition to lies (ykwya), slander (ykwya), harassment (ykwya), and complaints about me to authorities from cowardly individuals who are not willing to say to my face that I irritate them (if you have a problem with me, I am perfectly willing to hear that and if you're not excessively condescending and can respect me as I try to respect you, I will accept what you have to say and try to improve on it, as I have shown in the past in the very few cases where somebody has come up to me politely and told me what others would only tell to Tom W).
I am also greatly appreciative of the support I have received from many people, however small or tentative, because it often helps me to look at things in perspective and take a step back and realise that not everybody is a jackass and to let things go for a few weeks.
Mark
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:17:55 +0100, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Mark, For your information, I have been trying quietly to find someone to create the Ossetian wikipedia. I have been refused several times because they are nauseated by all the huha around it. Literally: you are involved so it must be controversial. I have already spoken with someone on the board and they say "ask someone as it fullfills the requirements".
So I do not care that much what you say but at this moment you have the Midas touch in reverse; everything you touch is considered shit.
Groetjes, GerardM
Mark Williamson wrote:
Oh, and I know I can at times be irritating and condescending (although this isn't usually intentional, and when it is, well, you'd better watch out). But when somebody makes a point of telling me something they dislike specifically or warns me about something about them, I don't go flagrantly violating it.
Everybody can be irritating, but it takes a true master to send a condescending message of advice to one who has in the past said he doesn't much appreciate advice (I have enough advice as it is - believe me, I've heard all of this before), especially when it's delivered in such a manner.
Mark
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:25:17 -0700, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I didn't say he didn't have a good point. I just said the method of delivery wasn't good.
So it wasn't entirely lost on me, I just got a bit pissed at Stan for the way he said it.
Mark
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:17:42 -0500, Olve Utne utne@nvg.org wrote:
>Dear Mark W., > >At 05:09 23/02/2005 +0000, Mark Williamson wrote to Stan Shebs: > > > > > > >>"Thanks" for the advice. >> >>I have some for you, too - cool off a bit, and quit acting so >>condescending. It's very irritating, even in small doses. And as I have >>noted before, while friendly advice is usually appreciated by me, when it >>is given in a tone like this it really doesn't help anybody. >> >> >> >> >> >> >As someone who has supported you before (even though I have no way of >telling whether you appreciated it), I ask you to break a little bit there >-- Stan Shebs' advice wasn't *that* bad, actually... It is easy for us all >to sound a bit condescending at times (and you probably think I sound >condescending right now), but you sound more than a bit condescending (and, >frankly, a bit irritating (since you brought up that term)) yourself at >times, you know .... > >I think this may be a good time for you to step back a bit and rethink your >debating strategies. > >Listen to Stan -- and give what he said some thought. It won't hurt. You >don't need to post all your thoughts about it here (or anywhere else, at >that) -- but please try to listen. Maybe you find that he isn't right. But >in that case, maybe you could make your own life easier by finding out >why/how people misunderstand you -- and then find ways of avoiding these >misunderstandings...? > >I appreciate very much your struggle for "small"-language wikipedias, Mark. >I have also seen you contribute in many other great ways., and I hope that >you will continue the struggle for Wikipedia to become ever more democratic >and diverse within the limits of truth and humanism. But in this struggle, >one needs both a strong conviction AND a level of humility (!) and >flexibility (!!!) that allows people not to be driven away from the good cause. > >I have defended you before, and will be happy to do so again as long as I >see that you do positive things for Wikipedia. But sometimes it is time to >listen and learn for all of us -- even for you. > >Respectfully, > >Olve > > >___________________ > >Olve Utne >http://utne.nvg.org >
Mark Williamson wrote:
I have tried before, but nobody notices, nobody cares.
In fact, if anything, things have gotten worse for me whenever I have shut up.
Mark
Just because nobody says anything does not mean that nobody notices or cares. If I am not involved with the subjects for which you advocate it doesn't matter if I notice or care. There are many things said on this list and elsewhere that I notice and decide that my best contribution to the subject would be to say nothing. For most of us interest in the Ossetian language will at best never be any more than marginal. We all feel that our time is best spent on other issues.
It may be sad that many of these lesser known languages are on the path to extinction, but unless they generate their own will to live it's not going to happen. The non-speakers can do no more than let them know that the means are available. Nagging about it will accomplish no more than somebody's mother nagging after her kid to clean up his room.
You don't need to be noticed by everybody unless you're running for office. If you reduce the number of your comments it's only natural that the number of responses will drop. If you then concentrate your efforts on a few things, and work co-operatively with others there to find a common solution you will be noticed there. The notice will certainly be from a smaller group, but it will be a group whose opinion matters more in that context.
Ec
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:42:58 -0800, Ray Saintonge wrote:
It may be sad that many of these lesser known languages are on the path to extinction, but unless they generate their own will to live it's not going to happen.
Though that was not the main topic of the discussion, I feel the necessity to point out the common mistake: it is not only the "own will" that can save lesser used languages. It's also institutional help that is needed: education in the language, services in the language, useful books in the language, interesting passtimes using the language, etc.
The ability to run Internet ecyclopedia in a lesser used language can surely help the "own will" of its speakers. When such an encyclopedia appears, it's no longer the fact that "there is no any useful site in my mother language: why should I keep using it?".
There are only two articles in the Xhosa Wikipedia, but the great thing is done. Whenever "own will" appears, they can take this site and make it a great place, as it happens about the Tatar Wikipedia. Once even the Russian Wikipedia has been an empty place for rather long time!
Thank all for the great work you do.
Sl. Ivanov
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