I didn't say he didn't have a good point. I just said the method of delivery wasn't good. So it wasn't entirely lost on me, I just got a bit pissed at Stan for the way he said it. Mark On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:17:42 -0500, Olve Utne <utne(a)nvg.org> wrote:

Oh, and I know I can at times be irritating and condescending (although this isn't usually intentional, and when it is, well, you'd better watch out). But when somebody makes a point of telling me something they dislike specifically or warns me about something about them, I don't go flagrantly violating it. Everybody can be irritating, but it takes a true master to send a condescending message of advice to one who has in the past said he doesn't much appreciate advice (I have enough advice as it is - believe me, I've heard all of this before), especially when it's delivered in such a manner. Mark On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:25:17 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com> wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

I had suspected this. Again you are not dealing with the real problem. The real problem is that the people you are talking to are being very shallow. The Ossetic Wikipedia has not been controversial. To assume it must be bad because I was involved is not only offensive but just plain idiotic. Such an attitude is not appropriate in any situation. As before your best option will be to request it personally from Brion. When others give me shit, he is usually willing to create Wikipedias quietly as long as the issues surrounding it have been resolved (ie, he was reluctant to create fur: until he found out a native speaker had eventually shown up). Brion is a great person and doesn't suffer from the same illogicality and delusions which seem to be common now within this operation (I now generally avoid en.wikipedia because it has gone from what I believe was a truly healthy environment and was making great progress to a toxic environment which seems to me to be going slowly backwards, due not in the least to corruption at the top - there is no admin accountability, and while this is good in that the majority [ie, the usually-good admins] can't be bogged down by bogus complaints, it is bad in that those admins who cause more harm than good often simply stay as they are until they really cross the line and it's with somebody who is brave enough to complain - but even many non-admins of course seem to have this sort of toxic attitude too - wikihate seems to be slowly devouring wikilove). I believe that while a portion of my bad reputation is deserved, the great majority of it is due to hype and exaggeration. For example, Jimbo seems to believe I just want zh.wikipedia to split up for whatever frivolous reason I can find. IIRC when a working converter was first showcased by Zhengzhu is when the rhetoric actually toned down and compromise was found - I didn't say "Well conversion even if it'ss perfect isn't good enough, we need separate Wikipedias no matter what". And I know there is no lack of talk about me behind my back - I'm actually in on quite a bit of it (you know who you are). This all helps to formulate a "mob mentality" which changes things from "he's annoying and he's done a couple of bad things which he apologised for and some things which were debatable, as well as some relatively good contributions" to "he burned our crops, raped our women, and enslaved our children! get him!". (note: since I have said something similar to some people in the past and they have been extremely uncool in believing I was paranoid or stupid enough to actually think they thought or said stuff about me raping women and burning crops... I feel it is nessecary to make it known that this is an extreme exaggeration on my part). I'm just thankful that, in addition to a pile of crap which is partly of my own making and partly due to the crap-recycling machine known as The General Population, I actually have people I can count on and trust, and who understand me and whom I can count as true friends. To those one or two of you who pretended to be my friends and then turned into some of my worst enemies, really, that's disappointing but there were signs from the beginning and it was naïve of me to not notice them. I have also noticed a great deal of backstabbing (you know who you are) and broken promises (you also know who you are) in addition to lies (ykwya), slander (ykwya), harassment (ykwya), and complaints about me to authorities from cowardly individuals who are not willing to say to my face that I irritate them (if you have a problem with me, I am perfectly willing to hear that and if you're not excessively condescending and can respect me as I try to respect you, I will accept what you have to say and try to improve on it, as I have shown in the past in the very few cases where somebody has come up to me politely and told me what others would only tell to Tom W). I am also greatly appreciative of the support I have received from many people, however small or tentative, because it often helps me to look at things in perspective and take a step back and realise that not everybody is a jackass and to let things go for a few weeks. Mark On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:17:55 +0100, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote: >Mark, >For your information, I have been trying quietly to find someone to >create the Ossetian wikipedia. I have been refused several times because >they are nauseated by all the huha around it. Literally: you are >involved so it must be controversial. I have already spoken with someone >on the board and they say "ask someone as it fullfills the requirements". > >So I do not care that much what you say but at this moment you have the >Midas touch in reverse; everything you touch is considered shit. > >Groetjes, > GerardM > >Mark Williamson wrote: > > > >>Oh, and I know I can at times be irritating and condescending >>(although this isn't usually intentional, and when it is, well, you'd >>better watch out). But when somebody makes a point of telling me >>something they dislike specifically or warns me about something about >>them, I don't go flagrantly violating it. >> >>Everybody can be irritating, but it takes a true master to send a >>condescending message of advice to one who has in the past said he >>doesn't much appreciate advice (I have enough advice as it is - >>believe me, I've heard all of this before), especially when it's >>delivered in such a manner. >> >>Mark >> >>On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:25:17 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>>I didn't say he didn't have a good point. I just said the method of >>>delivery wasn't good. >>> >>>So it wasn't entirely lost on me, I just got a bit pissed at Stan for >>>the way he said it. >>> >>>Mark >>> >>>On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:17:42 -0500, Olve Utne <utne(a)nvg.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Dear Mark W., >>>> >>>>At 05:09 23/02/2005 +0000, Mark Williamson wrote to Stan Shebs: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>"Thanks" for the advice. >>>>> >>>>>I have some for you, too - cool off a bit, and quit acting so >>>>>condescending. It's very irritating, even in small doses. And as I have >>>>>noted before, while friendly advice is usually appreciated by me, when it >>>>>is given in a tone like this it really doesn't help anybody. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>As someone who has supported you before (even though I have no way of >>>>telling whether you appreciated it), I ask you to break a little bit there >>>>-- Stan Shebs' advice wasn't *that* bad, actually... It is easy for us all >>>>to sound a bit condescending at times (and you probably think I sound >>>>condescending right now), but you sound more than a bit condescending (and, >>>>frankly, a bit irritating (since you brought up that term)) yourself at >>>>times, you know .... >>>> >>>>I think this may be a good time for you to step back a bit and rethink your >>>>debating strategies. >>>> >>>>Listen to Stan -- and give what he said some thought. It won't hurt. You >>>>don't need to post all your thoughts about it here (or anywhere else, at >>>>that) -- but please try to listen. Maybe you find that he isn't right. But >>>>in that case, maybe you could make your own life easier by finding out >>>>why/how people misunderstand you -- and then find ways of avoiding these >>>>misunderstandings...? >>>> >>>>I appreciate very much your struggle for "small"-language wikipedias, Mark. >>>>I have also seen you contribute in many other great ways., and I hope that >>>>you will continue the struggle for Wikipedia to become ever more democratic >>>>and diverse within the limits of truth and humanism. But in this struggle, >>>>one needs both a strong conviction AND a level of humility (!) and >>>>flexibility (!!!) that allows people not to be driven away from the good cause. >>>> >>>>I have defended you before, and will be happy to do so again as long as I >>>>see that you do positive things for Wikipedia. But sometimes it is time to >>>>listen and learn for all of us -- even for you. >>>> >>>>Respectfully, >>>> >>>>Olve >>>> >>>> >>>>___________________ >>>> >>>>Olve Utne >>>>http://utne.nvg.org >>>>

I have tried before, but nobody notices, nobody cares. In fact, if anything, things have gotten worse for me whenever I have shut up. Mark On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:54:11 +0100, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote: >Mark, >The os:wikipedia is seen to be controversial because you are involved. >You admit that you know/suspect this. Why then do you do what you do >when you know that what you do makes things worse for others. Why do you >not tone down your voice. Why do you not make sure that people start to >appreciate you. THAT is what Stan among others says you are capable off >when you apply yourself. > >Blame others, blame the bad environment on en: but when do you start >looking at yourself and DO something about it? > >Groetjes, > GerardM > >Mark Williamson wrote: > > > >>I had suspected this. >> >>Again you are not dealing with the real problem. >> >>The real problem is that the people you are talking to are being very >>shallow. The Ossetic Wikipedia has not been controversial. To assume >>it must be bad because I was involved is not only offensive but just >>plain idiotic. >> >>Such an attitude is not appropriate in any situation. As before your >>best option will be to request it personally from Brion. When others >>give me shit, he is usually willing to create Wikipedias quietly as >>long as the issues surrounding it have been resolved (ie, he was >>reluctant to create fur: until he found out a native speaker had >>eventually shown up). Brion is a great person and doesn't suffer from >>the same illogicality and delusions which seem to be common now within >>this operation (I now generally avoid en.wikipedia because it has gone >> >> >>from what I believe was a truly healthy environment and was making > > >>great progress to a toxic environment which seems to me to be going >>slowly backwards, due not in the least to corruption at the top - >>there is no admin accountability, and while this is good in that the >>majority [ie, the usually-good admins] can't be bogged down by bogus >>complaints, it is bad in that those admins who cause more harm than >>good often simply stay as they are until they really cross the line >>and it's with somebody who is brave enough to complain - but even many >>non-admins of course seem to have this sort of toxic attitude too - >>wikihate seems to be slowly devouring wikilove). >> >>I believe that while a portion of my bad reputation is deserved, the >>great majority of it is due to hype and exaggeration. For example, >>Jimbo seems to believe I just want zh.wikipedia to split up for >>whatever frivolous reason I can find. IIRC when a working converter >>was first showcased by Zhengzhu is when the rhetoric actually toned >>down and compromise was found - I didn't say "Well conversion even if >>it'ss perfect isn't good enough, we need separate Wikipedias no matter >>what". >> >>And I know there is no lack of talk about me behind my back - I'm >>actually in on quite a bit of it (you know who you are). This all >>helps to formulate a "mob mentality" which changes things from "he's >>annoying and he's done a couple of bad things which he apologised for >>and some things which were debatable, as well as some relatively good >>contributions" to "he burned our crops, raped our women, and enslaved >>our children! get him!". (note: since I have said something similar to >>some people in the past and they have been extremely uncool in >>believing I was paranoid or stupid enough to actually think they >>thought or said stuff about me raping women and burning crops... I >>feel it is nessecary to make it known that this is an extreme >>exaggeration on my part). >> >>I'm just thankful that, in addition to a pile of crap which is partly >>of my own making and partly due to the crap-recycling machine known as >>The General Population, I actually have people I can count on and >>trust, and who understand me and whom I can count as true friends. To >>those one or two of you who pretended to be my friends and then turned >>into some of my worst enemies, really, that's disappointing but there >>were signs from the beginning and it was naïve of me to not notice >>them. >> >>I have also noticed a great deal of backstabbing (you know who you >>are) and broken promises (you also know who you are) in addition to >>lies (ykwya), slander (ykwya), harassment (ykwya), and complaints >>about me to authorities from cowardly individuals who are not willing >>to say to my face that I irritate them (if you have a problem with me, >>I am perfectly willing to hear that and if you're not excessively >>condescending and can respect me as I try to respect you, I will >>accept what you have to say and try to improve on it, as I have shown >>in the past in the very few cases where somebody has come up to me >>politely and told me what others would only tell to Tom W). >> >>I am also greatly appreciative of the support I have received from >>many people, however small or tentative, because it often helps me to >>look at things in perspective and take a step back and realise that >>not everybody is a jackass and to let things go for a few weeks. >> >>Mark >> >>On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:17:55 +0100, Gerard Meijssen >><gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>>Mark, >>>For your information, I have been trying quietly to find someone to >>>create the Ossetian wikipedia. I have been refused several times because >>>they are nauseated by all the huha around it. Literally: you are >>>involved so it must be controversial. I have already spoken with someone >>>on the board and they say "ask someone as it fullfills the requirements". >>> >>>So I do not care that much what you say but at this moment you have the >>>Midas touch in reverse; everything you touch is considered shit. >>> >>>Groetjes, >>> GerardM >>> >>>Mark Williamson wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Oh, and I know I can at times be irritating and condescending >>>>(although this isn't usually intentional, and when it is, well, you'd >>>>better watch out). But when somebody makes a point of telling me >>>>something they dislike specifically or warns me about something about >>>>them, I don't go flagrantly violating it. >>>> >>>>Everybody can be irritating, but it takes a true master to send a >>>>condescending message of advice to one who has in the past said he >>>>doesn't much appreciate advice (I have enough advice as it is - >>>>believe me, I've heard all of this before), especially when it's >>>>delivered in such a manner. >>>> >>>>Mark >>>> >>>>On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:25:17 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>I didn't say he didn't have a good point. I just said the method of >>>>>delivery wasn't good. >>>>> >>>>>So it wasn't entirely lost on me, I just got a bit pissed at Stan for >>>>>the way he said it. >>>>> >>>>>Mark >>>>> >>>>>On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:17:42 -0500, Olve Utne <utne(a)nvg.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Dear Mark W., >>>>>> >>>>>>At 05:09 23/02/2005 +0000, Mark Williamson wrote to Stan Shebs: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>"Thanks" for the advice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I have some for you, too - cool off a bit, and quit acting so >>>>>>>condescending. It's very irritating, even in small doses. And as I have >>>>>>>noted before, while friendly advice is usually appreciated by me, when it >>>>>>>is given in a tone like this it really doesn't help anybody. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>As someone who has supported you before (even though I have no way of >>>>>>telling whether you appreciated it), I ask you to break a little bit there >>>>>>-- Stan Shebs' advice wasn't *that* bad, actually... It is easy for us all >>>>>>to sound a bit condescending at times (and you probably think I sound >>>>>>condescending right now), but you sound more than a bit condescending (and, >>>>>>frankly, a bit irritating (since you brought up that term)) yourself at >>>>>>times, you know .... >>>>>> >>>>>>I think this may be a good time for you to step back a bit and rethink your >>>>>>debating strategies. >>>>>> >>>>>>Listen to Stan -- and give what he said some thought. It won't hurt. You >>>>>>don't need to post all your thoughts about it here (or anywhere else, at >>>>>>that) -- but please try to listen. Maybe you find that he isn't right. But >>>>>>in that case, maybe you could make your own life easier by finding out >>>>>>why/how people misunderstand you -- and then find ways of avoiding these >>>>>>misunderstandings...? >>>>>> >>>>>>I appreciate very much your struggle for "small"-language wikipedias, Mark. >>>>>>I have also seen you contribute in many other great ways., and I hope that >>>>>>you will continue the struggle for Wikipedia to become ever more democratic >>>>>>and diverse within the limits of truth and humanism. But in this struggle, >>>>>>one needs both a strong conviction AND a level of humility (!) and >>>>>>flexibility (!!!) that allows people not to be driven away from the good cause. >>>>>> >>>>>>I have defended you before, and will be happy to do so again as long as I >>>>>>see that you do positive things for Wikipedia. But sometimes it is time to >>>>>>listen and learn for all of us -- even for you. >>>>>> >>>>>>Respectfully, >>>>>> >>>>>>Olve >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>___________________ >>>>>> >>>>>>Olve Utne >>>>>>http://utne.nvg.org >>>>>>

It may be sad that many of these lesser known languages are on the path to extinction, but unless they generate their own will to live it's not going to happen.