Hello everybody,
Remember, you decided to leave the Moldovan wikipedia freezed, but not completely deleted. Now, its unique contributor [[:en:User:Node_ue]], is back (probably on school holiday), with his anti-Romanian edits. I cite from [[:mo:Wikipedia_talk:Administrator]]:
<i> Please don't write in Romanian here, write Moldovan. Every time you write Romanian on the Moldovan wikipedia, god kills a kitten. </i>
No to mention that he initiated a vote to become again sysop, then tried to falsify the results (because they were not favourable). The current version of the page [[:mo:Wikipedia:Administrator]] is that rigged by Node_ue, but take a look at the history on the vote page [http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator&oldid=...], which shows the true result of the vote according to the original rules set by Node_ue.
After this, he managed to invite the entire Russian wikipedia to take position on a language they know nothing about here: [[:meta:Proposals for closing projects]]. Take a look at his post here [[:ru:ÐикипедиÑ:ФоÑÑм/ÐовоÑÑи#Moldovan]], and notice the blatant lie concerning the cyrillic script (whereas the problem is in fact the absence of Moldovan editors).
In the meantime, Node_ue is copying articles from ro.wiki to mo.wiki and pretends they are in a different language.
It must be noted that he is the only one on the entire wikipedia (all wikipedias took together) to pretend speaking a "Moldovan language" different from the Romanian one. Just take a look at [[:en:Category:User mo]], [[:mo:Category:User mo]], [[:ro:Category:User mo]], [[:ru:Category:User mo]].
Moreover he himself places himself at level mo-2. I can assure you this guy isn't able to write correct text in Moldovan. Any native Moldovan can tell you the same (in fact, this is why he keeps copying articles from ro.wiki).
While no native Moldovan editor exists, the Moldovan wikipedia will continue to be a political statement that exacerbates nationalisms from Romania, Russia, and Moldova itself, and a playground for clever and stupid trolls.
It should be closed until a native Moldovan editor requires its re-opening and assumes admin rights.
This argument has already been put forward here [[:meta:Proposals for closing projects#What decision makers need to know]].
Yours sincerely, [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
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Remember, you decided to leave the Moldovan wikipedia freezed, but not completely deleted. Now, its unique contributor [[:en:User:Node_ue]], is back (probably on school holiday), with his anti-Romanian edits. I cite from [[:mo:Wikipedia_talk:Administrator]]:
No -- that was the decision of a single person, Anthere.
<i> Please don't write in Romanian here, write Moldovan. Every time you write Romanian on the Moldovan wikipedia, god kills a kitten. </i>
Oh no! Anti-Romanian! And in case you lost your sense of humour during your little outing last night, I shall inform you: that was a joke.
No to mention that he initiated a vote to become again sysop, then tried to falsify the results (because they were not favourable). The current version of the page [[:mo:Wikipedia:Administrator]] is that rigged by Node_ue, but take a look at the history on the vote page [http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator&oldid=...], which shows the true result of the vote according to the original rules set by Node_ue.
Oh noes! Rigged voting! That stinks of... wait for it... Moldovans! Since, of course, your favourite Moldovan, Pavel, did that himself by removing all opposing votes at your favourite election.
But wait! The "original rules" set by me included, in no particular order -- voters must be ACTIVE USERS, and the vote lasted no longer than 1 day. All oppose votes were placed by INACTIVE USERS or NONUSERS, and AFTER the voting period had elapsed.
On the contrary, all SUPPORT votes were placed by ACTIVE USERS before the period had elapsed.
After this, he managed to invite the entire Russian wikipedia to take position on a language they know nothing about here: [[:meta:Proposals for closing projects]]. Take a look at his post here [[:ru:Википедия:Форум/Новости#Moldovan]], and notice the blatant lie concerning the cyrillic script (whereas the problem is in fact the absence of Moldovan editors).
OH NOES!!! Surely, Romanians know more about Transnistrian linguistic issues than Russians do? Since, of course, Cluj is SOOO MUCH CLOSER to Dubasari than ANY Russian city.
Then notice, with a machine translator, that the RUSSIANS DID NOT CARE whether the problem was as I said, or as you said.
And obviously, it's as you said -- nearly everyone was all "BOO HOO!!! Cyrillic is an insult to Moldovans!". Only a handful of people said "We want Moldovan editors."
In the meantime, Node_ue is copying articles from ro.wiki to mo.wiki and pretends they are in a different language.
Show me a single copied article. You need to read up some more on English -- when you copy something, you copy it. I did not "copy" any article. Copy, means lift directly. And nobody asked me what language any of the newest articles were in.
It must be noted that he is the only one on the entire wikipedia (all wikipedias took together) to pretend speaking a "Moldovan language" different from the Romanian one. Just take a look at [[:en:Category:User mo]], [[:mo:Category:User mo]], [[:ro:Category:User mo]], [[:ru:Category:User mo]].
How do you know that there aren't any people claiming to speak Moldovan at, say, the Gujarati Wikipedia? Did you check? (to save you some time, the answer is, no, there aren't, but then, there are over 200 Wikipedias)
Moreover he himself places himself at level mo-2. I can assure you this guy isn't able to write correct text in Moldovan. Any native Moldovan can tell you the same (in fact, this is why he keeps copying articles from ro.wiki).
"Correct text" is what you would expect from someone that claims mo-4 or mo-5. "Intelligible text" is what you should expect from someone who claims mo-2.
While no native Moldovan editor exists, the Moldovan wikipedia will continue to be a political statement that exacerbates nationalisms from Romania, Russia, and Moldova itself, and a playground for clever and stupid trolls.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. And what did our Moldovan friends who DID actually edit, do? They fixed and/or posted articles in Cyrillic, with the exception of Pavel. How is it any more of a playground now than it was then?
It should be closed until a native Moldovan editor requires its re-opening and assumes admin rights.
The majority of voting Wikimedians disagree.
This argument has already been put forward here [[:meta:Proposals for closing projects#What decision makers need to know]].
Sorry, but votes is votes.
I seem to remember before when you were whinging about how mo.wiki should be closed because a fair and democratic vote said it should be. But now, you're saying we should toss out democracy because it doesn't agree with you.
Hey, at least I could claim the vote was rigged because it restricted people on unfair grounds, but you... no... all Wikimedians are allowed to participate here.
Your only protest seems to be, "The voters aren't smart enough to make an informed decision. Thus, you should listen to me, and not them." Way to go. I thought you liked democracy, what with you and all your friends telling me how I was anti-democracy and how evil that is... but apparently, you like rigged elections too.
Mark
Having said that, I should add that the majority of people in both votes who voted to delete this Wiki came from the Romanian Wikipedia.
So don't accuse me of playing unfairly. This is a vote for Wikimedians. Russian Wikipedians are just as good of voters are you Romanian and your buddies.
Mark
On 24/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello everybody,
Remember, you decided to leave the Moldovan wikipedia freezed, but not completely deleted. Now, its unique contributor [[:en:User:Node_ue]], is back (probably on school holiday), with his anti-Romanian edits. I cite from [[:mo:Wikipedia_talk:Administrator]]:
<i> Please don't write in Romanian here, write Moldovan. Every time you write Romanian on the Moldovan wikipedia, god kills a kitten. </i>
No to mention that he initiated a vote to become again sysop, then tried to falsify the results (because they were not favourable). The current version of the page [[:mo:Wikipedia:Administrator]] is that rigged by Node_ue, but take a look at the history on the vote page [http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator&oldid=...], which shows the true result of the vote according to the original rules set by Node_ue.
After this, he managed to invite the entire Russian wikipedia to take position on a language they know nothing about here: [[:meta:Proposals for closing projects]]. Take a look at his post here [[:ru:Википедия:Форум/Новости#Moldovan]], and notice the blatant lie concerning the cyrillic script (whereas the problem is in fact the absence of Moldovan editors).
In the meantime, Node_ue is copying articles from ro.wiki to mo.wiki and pretends they are in a different language.
It must be noted that he is the only one on the entire wikipedia (all wikipedias took together) to pretend speaking a "Moldovan language" different from the Romanian one. Just take a look at [[:en:Category:User mo]], [[:mo:Category:User mo]], [[:ro:Category:User mo]], [[:ru:Category:User mo]].
Moreover he himself places himself at level mo-2. I can assure you this guy isn't able to write correct text in Moldovan. Any native Moldovan can tell you the same (in fact, this is why he keeps copying articles from ro.wiki).
While no native Moldovan editor exists, the Moldovan wikipedia will continue to be a political statement that exacerbates nationalisms from Romania, Russia, and Moldova itself, and a playground for clever and stupid trolls.
It should be closed until a native Moldovan editor requires its re-opening and assumes admin rights.
This argument has already been put forward here [[:meta:Proposals for closing projects#What decision makers need to know]].
Yours sincerely, [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
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Agree with this statement. Absurd vote stacking on both sides has left us with this impossible situation. It shouldn't have been closed the first time (even though it was voted as such) and it should be closed now (even though it hasn't been voted as such). Oh the wonderful confusion.
If only it were possible to get a non-involved party to look at this for 5 minutes and decide one way or the other. It would save everyone a hell of a lot of time. What we need is a knee jerk binding judgement! (of course this is said partly in jest, but we really aren't going to get anywhere by 'discussing' this).
Fran
On Sat, 2006-06-24 at 06:15 -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:
Having said that, I should add that the majority of people in both votes who voted to delete this Wiki came from the Romanian Wikipedia.
So don't accuse me of playing unfairly. This is a vote for Wikimedians. Russian Wikipedians are just as good of voters are you Romanian and your buddies.
Mark
On 24/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello everybody,
Remember, you decided to leave the Moldovan wikipedia freezed, but not completely deleted. Now, its unique contributor [[:en:User:Node_ue]], is back (probably on school holiday), with his anti-Romanian edits. I cite from [[:mo:Wikipedia_talk:Administrator]]:
<i> Please don't write in Romanian here, write Moldovan. Every time you write Romanian on the Moldovan wikipedia, god kills a kitten. </i>
No to mention that he initiated a vote to become again sysop, then tried to falsify the results (because they were not favourable). The current version of the page [[:mo:Wikipedia:Administrator]] is that rigged by Node_ue, but take a look at the history on the vote page [http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator&oldid=...], which shows the true result of the vote according to the original rules set by Node_ue.
After this, he managed to invite the entire Russian wikipedia to take position on a language they know nothing about here: [[:meta:Proposals for closing projects]]. Take a look at his post here [[:ru:Википедия:Форум/Новости#Moldovan]], and notice the blatant lie concerning the cyrillic script (whereas the problem is in fact the absence of Moldovan editors).
In the meantime, Node_ue is copying articles from ro.wiki to mo.wiki and pretends they are in a different language.
It must be noted that he is the only one on the entire wikipedia (all wikipedias took together) to pretend speaking a "Moldovan language" different from the Romanian one. Just take a look at [[:en:Category:User mo]], [[:mo:Category:User mo]], [[:ro:Category:User mo]], [[:ru:Category:User mo]].
Moreover he himself places himself at level mo-2. I can assure you this guy isn't able to write correct text in Moldovan. Any native Moldovan can tell you the same (in fact, this is why he keeps copying articles from ro.wiki).
While no native Moldovan editor exists, the Moldovan wikipedia will continue to be a political statement that exacerbates nationalisms from Romania, Russia, and Moldova itself, and a playground for clever and stupid trolls.
It should be closed until a native Moldovan editor requires its re-opening and assumes admin rights.
This argument has already been put forward here [[:meta:Proposals for closing projects#What decision makers need to know]].
Yours sincerely, [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
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I don't see how the status quo has hurt anyone, if you don't count people's egos.
Some people may claim it is "an insult to Moldovans everywhere", but that claim doesn't hold much credence.
Given that we now have two opposing votes -- the first vote, for this Wikipedia to be closed, and the second, for it to stay open -- I think we have an outstanding mandate in favour of the status quo.
This Wikipedia was created, and nobody can seem to agree on whether to close it or not.
Some people might argue that it should be closed, but I don't think there's a single reasonable argument that it _needs_ to be closed _now_.
Francis, would you disagree with this? Certainly, you may believe that the Wikipedia will never amount to anything, or that it shouldn't be open, but do you honestly think it *needs* closing?
In its current form, the only problem it ever actually caused, was to anger some Romanians (and a handful of Moldovans), who eventually in their turn angered some Russians and Serbians (and a Moldovan or two).
Despite your belief that I am outright lying to you, we have had native-speaking contributors, although we don't have any at the moment (well, Vania Tractoristu did correct a single spelling mistake on a page yesterday, but I don't know if we can count that).
They are:
Oleg Alexandrov (made some corrections) Vertaler (made many, many corrections) Elnoel (only IP contributions, I believe, although he does have a registered username) Dmitriid (made some corrections)
There are other native speakers, but none of them, to my knowledge, ever actually helped any, with the exception of a single recent contribution from Vania Tractoristu, despite our tractorist's stated desire to blow the Wikipedia to oblivion.
Mark
On 24/06/06, Francis Tyers spectre@ivixor.net wrote:
Agree with this statement. Absurd vote stacking on both sides has left us with this impossible situation. It shouldn't have been closed the first time (even though it was voted as such) and it should be closed now (even though it hasn't been voted as such). Oh the wonderful confusion.
If only it were possible to get a non-involved party to look at this for 5 minutes and decide one way or the other. It would save everyone a hell of a lot of time. What we need is a knee jerk binding judgement! (of course this is said partly in jest, but we really aren't going to get anywhere by 'discussing' this).
Fran
On Sat, 2006-06-24 at 06:15 -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:
Having said that, I should add that the majority of people in both votes who voted to delete this Wiki came from the Romanian Wikipedia.
So don't accuse me of playing unfairly. This is a vote for Wikimedians. Russian Wikipedians are just as good of voters are you Romanian and your buddies.
Mark
On 24/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello everybody,
Remember, you decided to leave the Moldovan wikipedia freezed, but not completely deleted. Now, its unique contributor [[:en:User:Node_ue]], is back (probably on school holiday), with his anti-Romanian edits. I cite from [[:mo:Wikipedia_talk:Administrator]]:
<i> Please don't write in Romanian here, write Moldovan. Every time you write Romanian on the Moldovan wikipedia, god kills a kitten. </i>
No to mention that he initiated a vote to become again sysop, then tried to falsify the results (because they were not favourable). The current version of the page [[:mo:Wikipedia:Administrator]] is that rigged by Node_ue, but take a look at the history on the vote page [http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator&oldid=...], which shows the true result of the vote according to the original rules set by Node_ue.
After this, he managed to invite the entire Russian wikipedia to take position on a language they know nothing about here: [[:meta:Proposals for closing projects]]. Take a look at his post here [[:ru:Википедия:Форум/Новости#Moldovan]], and notice the blatant lie concerning the cyrillic script (whereas the problem is in fact the absence of Moldovan editors).
In the meantime, Node_ue is copying articles from ro.wiki to mo.wiki and pretends they are in a different language.
It must be noted that he is the only one on the entire wikipedia (all wikipedias took together) to pretend speaking a "Moldovan language" different from the Romanian one. Just take a look at [[:en:Category:User mo]], [[:mo:Category:User mo]], [[:ro:Category:User mo]], [[:ru:Category:User mo]].
Moreover he himself places himself at level mo-2. I can assure you this guy isn't able to write correct text in Moldovan. Any native Moldovan can tell you the same (in fact, this is why he keeps copying articles from ro.wiki).
While no native Moldovan editor exists, the Moldovan wikipedia will continue to be a political statement that exacerbates nationalisms from Romania, Russia, and Moldova itself, and a playground for clever and stupid trolls.
It should be closed until a native Moldovan editor requires its re-opening and assumes admin rights.
This argument has already been put forward here [[:meta:Proposals for closing projects#What decision makers need to know]].
Yours sincerely, [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
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And, should you say that it *does* need to be closed, by chance...
Does it need closing much more than, say, the Tajik, Nauruan, Kanuri, Venda, Xhosa, or Twi Wikipedias?
Mark
On 24/06/06, Francis Tyers spectre@ivixor.net wrote:
Agree with this statement. Absurd vote stacking on both sides has left us with this impossible situation. It shouldn't have been closed the first time (even though it was voted as such) and it should be closed now (even though it hasn't been voted as such). Oh the wonderful confusion.
If only it were possible to get a non-involved party to look at this for 5 minutes and decide one way or the other. It would save everyone a hell of a lot of time. What we need is a knee jerk binding judgement! (of course this is said partly in jest, but we really aren't going to get anywhere by 'discussing' this).
Fran
On Sat, 2006-06-24 at 06:15 -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:
Having said that, I should add that the majority of people in both votes who voted to delete this Wiki came from the Romanian Wikipedia.
So don't accuse me of playing unfairly. This is a vote for Wikimedians. Russian Wikipedians are just as good of voters are you Romanian and your buddies.
Mark
On 24/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello everybody,
Remember, you decided to leave the Moldovan wikipedia freezed, but not completely deleted. Now, its unique contributor [[:en:User:Node_ue]], is back (probably on school holiday), with his anti-Romanian edits. I cite from [[:mo:Wikipedia_talk:Administrator]]:
<i> Please don't write in Romanian here, write Moldovan. Every time you write Romanian on the Moldovan wikipedia, god kills a kitten. </i>
No to mention that he initiated a vote to become again sysop, then tried to falsify the results (because they were not favourable). The current version of the page [[:mo:Wikipedia:Administrator]] is that rigged by Node_ue, but take a look at the history on the vote page [http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator&oldid=...], which shows the true result of the vote according to the original rules set by Node_ue.
After this, he managed to invite the entire Russian wikipedia to take position on a language they know nothing about here: [[:meta:Proposals for closing projects]]. Take a look at his post here [[:ru:Википедия:Форум/Новости#Moldovan]], and notice the blatant lie concerning the cyrillic script (whereas the problem is in fact the absence of Moldovan editors).
In the meantime, Node_ue is copying articles from ro.wiki to mo.wiki and pretends they are in a different language.
It must be noted that he is the only one on the entire wikipedia (all wikipedias took together) to pretend speaking a "Moldovan language" different from the Romanian one. Just take a look at [[:en:Category:User mo]], [[:mo:Category:User mo]], [[:ro:Category:User mo]], [[:ru:Category:User mo]].
Moreover he himself places himself at level mo-2. I can assure you this guy isn't able to write correct text in Moldovan. Any native Moldovan can tell you the same (in fact, this is why he keeps copying articles from ro.wiki).
While no native Moldovan editor exists, the Moldovan wikipedia will continue to be a political statement that exacerbates nationalisms from Romania, Russia, and Moldova itself, and a playground for clever and stupid trolls.
It should be closed until a native Moldovan editor requires its re-opening and assumes admin rights.
This argument has already been put forward here [[:meta:Proposals for closing projects#What decision makers need to know]].
Yours sincerely, [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
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... it should be closed now
Amen ! (I cut the oppinion of Francis Tyers out of a context that hides it).
If only it were possible to get a non-involved party to look at this for 5 minutes and decide one way or the other. It would save everyone a hell of a lot of time. What we need is a knee jerk binding judgement! (of course this is said partly in jest, but we really aren't going to get anywhere by 'discussing' this).
Well, **you** of all are non-involved. And after following this discussion for a **long** time you ended with the same conclusion: Regardless of what the Moldovan language is or is not, there are no native contributors, and there is one single contributor overall (who actually cannot contribute because he is at level mo-2). Isn't this enough?
Dpotop
--------------------------------- Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
Well, I'm not in a position to "hand down the law" so to speak ;) It bothers me that certain people are so eager to close it, and it also bothers me that once it is closed, should sufficient interest be shown, the same people who voted 'close' here would 'oppose' re-opening it.
I think that would be highly unfair. _If_ it is closed, there has to be the possibility of it being re-opened provided there is interest.
Mark, I think that any Wikipedia without native contributors should be closed after a certain period. By closed I mean as I proposed here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects#Collective_fai...
The current content archived and a placeholder put in place. I don't think the "offensive" thing is important at all, I voted for keeping the Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia, even though (allegedly) it offended a lot of Balkanians. The point there was there were native speakers really eager to contribute. I'm just not seeing that here.
As I have expounded on the same page here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects#General_discus...
I think having very low quality small Wikipedias harms more than helps. I think that a Moldovan Wikipedia could certainly in its current form have a place in something like Sabines suggestion. With regard to the Tajik, Nauruan, Kanuri, Venda, Xhosa, and Twi Wikipedias, the same applies.
In short, I stand by my previous proposal, and would add that it should definately _not_ be voted on to be re-opened, it should only take ~9 native speakers to request it. _Definately no vote_ -- We'll just get adorable Romanians pushing their brand of "democracy", and the ensuing clown parade.
Fran
On Sat, 2006-06-24 at 08:07 -0700, Jacky PB wrote:
... it should be closed now
Amen ! (I cut the oppinion of Francis Tyers out of a context that hides it).
If only it were possible to get a non-involved party to look at this for 5 minutes and decide one way or the other. It would save everyone a hell of a lot of time. What we need is a knee jerk binding judgement! (of course this is said partly in jest, but we really aren't going to get anywhere by 'discussing' this).
Well, **you** of all are non-involved. And after following this discussion for a **long** time you ended with the same conclusion: Regardless of what the Moldovan language is or is not, there are no native contributors, and there is one single contributor overall (who actually cannot contribute because he is at level mo-2). Isn't this enough?
Dpotop
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Do you really honestly think that the Moldovan Wikipedia would ever be re-opened, even if the entire population of Tighina showed up to demand it? The Romanians would find some cute little way to keep it closed.
Mark
On 24/06/06, Francis Tyers spectre@ivixor.net wrote:
Well, I'm not in a position to "hand down the law" so to speak ;) It bothers me that certain people are so eager to close it, and it also bothers me that once it is closed, should sufficient interest be shown, the same people who voted 'close' here would 'oppose' re-opening it.
I think that would be highly unfair. _If_ it is closed, there has to be the possibility of it being re-opened provided there is interest.
Mark, I think that any Wikipedia without native contributors should be closed after a certain period. By closed I mean as I proposed here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects#Collective_fai...
The current content archived and a placeholder put in place. I don't think the "offensive" thing is important at all, I voted for keeping the Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia, even though (allegedly) it offended a lot of Balkanians. The point there was there were native speakers really eager to contribute. I'm just not seeing that here.
As I have expounded on the same page here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects#General_discus...
I think having very low quality small Wikipedias harms more than helps. I think that a Moldovan Wikipedia could certainly in its current form have a place in something like Sabines suggestion. With regard to the Tajik, Nauruan, Kanuri, Venda, Xhosa, and Twi Wikipedias, the same applies.
In short, I stand by my previous proposal, and would add that it should definately _not_ be voted on to be re-opened, it should only take ~9 native speakers to request it. _Definately no vote_ -- We'll just get adorable Romanians pushing their brand of "democracy", and the ensuing clown parade.
Fran
On Sat, 2006-06-24 at 08:07 -0700, Jacky PB wrote:
... it should be closed now
Amen ! (I cut the oppinion of Francis Tyers out of a context that hides it).
If only it were possible to get a non-involved party to look at this for 5 minutes and decide one way or the other. It would save everyone a hell of a lot of time. What we need is a knee jerk binding judgement! (of course this is said partly in jest, but we really aren't going to get anywhere by 'discussing' this).
Well, **you** of all are non-involved. And after following this discussion for a **long** time you ended with the same conclusion: Regardless of what the Moldovan language is or is not, there are no native contributors, and there is one single contributor overall (who actually cannot contribute because he is at level mo-2). Isn't this enough?
Dpotop
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Which is why I strongly oppose any Romanian or Russian involvement in the re-opening process. The re-opening process should ideally be a "Support only" affair, where people who are native speakers can go and voice their support for re-opening the project. And it would be re-opened given sufficient interest.
I would probably not be willing to close if this was not the case.
Fran
On Sat, 2006-06-24 at 08:36 -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:
Do you really honestly think that the Moldovan Wikipedia would ever be re-opened, even if the entire population of Tighina showed up to demand it? The Romanians would find some cute little way to keep it closed.
Mark
On 24/06/06, Francis Tyers spectre@ivixor.net wrote:
Well, I'm not in a position to "hand down the law" so to speak ;) It bothers me that certain people are so eager to close it, and it also bothers me that once it is closed, should sufficient interest be shown, the same people who voted 'close' here would 'oppose' re-opening it.
I think that would be highly unfair. _If_ it is closed, there has to be the possibility of it being re-opened provided there is interest.
Mark, I think that any Wikipedia without native contributors should be closed after a certain period. By closed I mean as I proposed here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects#Collective_fai...
The current content archived and a placeholder put in place. I don't think the "offensive" thing is important at all, I voted for keeping the Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia, even though (allegedly) it offended a lot of Balkanians. The point there was there were native speakers really eager to contribute. I'm just not seeing that here.
As I have expounded on the same page here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects#General_discus...
I think having very low quality small Wikipedias harms more than helps. I think that a Moldovan Wikipedia could certainly in its current form have a place in something like Sabines suggestion. With regard to the Tajik, Nauruan, Kanuri, Venda, Xhosa, and Twi Wikipedias, the same applies.
In short, I stand by my previous proposal, and would add that it should definately _not_ be voted on to be re-opened, it should only take ~9 native speakers to request it. _Definately no vote_ -- We'll just get adorable Romanians pushing their brand of "democracy", and the ensuing clown parade.
Fran
On Sat, 2006-06-24 at 08:07 -0700, Jacky PB wrote:
... it should be closed now
Amen ! (I cut the oppinion of Francis Tyers out of a context that hides it).
If only it were possible to get a non-involved party to look at this for 5 minutes and decide one way or the other. It would save everyone a hell of a lot of time. What we need is a knee jerk binding judgement! (of course this is said partly in jest, but we really aren't going to get anywhere by 'discussing' this).
Well, **you** of all are non-involved. And after following this discussion for a **long** time you ended with the same conclusion: Regardless of what the Moldovan language is or is not, there are no native contributors, and there is one single contributor overall (who actually cannot contribute because he is at level mo-2). Isn't this enough?
Dpotop
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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Okay, this is interesting -- a new user just showed up.
http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=%...
Their username is written in Moldovan Cyrillic. I don't know whether or not they're a native speaker, but they are the first person in a while besides me to create new pages in correctly-spelt Moldovan.
I know I will get accusations from the Romanian camp of sockpuppetry; I assure you this is not my sockpuppet, you may check if you would like.
Whoever this is, though, they've certainly made this whole thing more interesting for me, at least.
Mark
On 24/06/06, Francis Tyers spectre@ivixor.net wrote:
Well, I'm not in a position to "hand down the law" so to speak ;) It bothers me that certain people are so eager to close it, and it also bothers me that once it is closed, should sufficient interest be shown, the same people who voted 'close' here would 'oppose' re-opening it.
I think that would be highly unfair. _If_ it is closed, there has to be the possibility of it being re-opened provided there is interest.
Mark, I think that any Wikipedia without native contributors should be closed after a certain period. By closed I mean as I proposed here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects#Collective_fai...
The current content archived and a placeholder put in place. I don't think the "offensive" thing is important at all, I voted for keeping the Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia, even though (allegedly) it offended a lot of Balkanians. The point there was there were native speakers really eager to contribute. I'm just not seeing that here.
As I have expounded on the same page here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects#General_discus...
I think having very low quality small Wikipedias harms more than helps. I think that a Moldovan Wikipedia could certainly in its current form have a place in something like Sabines suggestion. With regard to the Tajik, Nauruan, Kanuri, Venda, Xhosa, and Twi Wikipedias, the same applies.
In short, I stand by my previous proposal, and would add that it should definately _not_ be voted on to be re-opened, it should only take ~9 native speakers to request it. _Definately no vote_ -- We'll just get adorable Romanians pushing their brand of "democracy", and the ensuing clown parade.
Fran
On Sat, 2006-06-24 at 08:07 -0700, Jacky PB wrote:
... it should be closed now
Amen ! (I cut the oppinion of Francis Tyers out of a context that hides it).
If only it were possible to get a non-involved party to look at this for 5 minutes and decide one way or the other. It would save everyone a hell of a lot of time. What we need is a knee jerk binding judgement! (of course this is said partly in jest, but we really aren't going to get anywhere by 'discussing' this).
Well, **you** of all are non-involved. And after following this discussion for a **long** time you ended with the same conclusion: Regardless of what the Moldovan language is or is not, there are no native contributors, and there is one single contributor overall (who actually cannot contribute because he is at level mo-2). Isn't this enough?
Dpotop
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Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote: Okay, this is interesting -- a new user just showed up.
http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=%...
Really! I suggest innocent bystanders to take a look at the edits of this "new editor". Nothing longer than one line, and with errors (yes, it is possible). :)
Dpotop
--------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups gets better. Check out the new email design. Plus theres much more to come.
How would you know whether or not there are "errors"? Did you study Moldovan Cyrillic in school? Wait for some real Moldovans to check this. And if they see errors, they can point them out.
Mark
On 24/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote: Okay, this is interesting -- a new user just showed up.
http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=%...
Really! I suggest innocent bystanders to take a look at the edits of this "new editor". Nothing longer than one line, and with errors (yes, it is possible). :)
Dpotop
Yahoo! Groups gets better. Check out the new email design. Plus there's much more to come. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
How would you know whether or not there are "errors"? Did you study Moldovan Cyrillic in school? Wait for some real Moldovans to check this. And if they see errors, they can point them out.
Mark It's easy, I'll explain it to you on an example. Let's take the following page edited by your new editor
http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B...
It's the longest one, with 3 lines of text.
Now, first remark. Cyrillic Moldovan and Latin Moldovan are the same with the exception of a transliteration detailed in [[:en:Moldovan language]]. Note that the transliteration is deterministic, so that working on the Latin version is exactly the same. Now, I transliterate here the three lines to Latin, so that wikipedia-l does not make everything a mess (I forget diacritics not to clog the text) :
Line 1. Grigoriopol este un oras in Transnistria pe malul sting al Nistrului. Orasul este situat 45 km nord-vest de la Tiraspol.
Line 2. Grigoriopol a fost fondat in anul 1792 si a fost numit in onoarea printului Frigore Potiomkin.
Line 3. Primarul orasului este Ion Tinnic. Populatia orasului este aproape 20000 de oameni.
Now, grammar: in Moldovan, like in Romanian, like in French, you do not say "Orasul este situat 45 km nord-vest de la Tiraspol." (in Line 1) but "Orasul este situat la 45 km nord-vest de Tiraspol." Or, in French "La ville est situee a 45 km nord-ouest de Tiraspol"
It's easy: - La ville = orasul = the city, articulated noun - est = este = is - situee = situat = placed - a = la = at - 45km = 45km = 30 miles or so - nord-ouest = nord-vest = north-west - de = de = from - Tiraspol = Tiraspol = Tiraspol
This error makes me believe that the editor is English-speaking, because the erroneous topic is English. It looks a lot like:
"The city is placed 45km north-west of Tiraspol"
Now, we go to line 3. There, you don't say: "Populatia orasului este aproape 20000 de oameni." but: "Populatia orasului este de aproape 20000 de oameni." Or, in French "La population de la ville est de presque 20000 personnes."
Hints: - orasului = de la ville = of the city
If someone does not believe me, please take a manual of Moldovan language and check.
Just a final note: this is not about the cyrillic script. Cyrillic or latin, they are the same language, by construction.
I'm fluent in cyrillic, BTW, and I did read Soviet-time Moldovan books in original.
So, 2 errors in 3 lines. Moreover, these are errors a 5-year old Moldovan would not do, because it's not spelling, but basic grammar.
Dpotop
--------------------------------- Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
Hello Mark,
I'm not sure about this new user, but IMO, from the errors he/she makes, I'd say he/she does not speak Romanian/Moldovan natively.
I just read one of his one-liners (Kamenka) and here are the errors:
* "locuieshte" instead of "locuiesc" (grammar mistake) * "mai mult decat" instead of "peste" (different meaning) * "funccioneaza" instead of "functzioneaza" (spelling mistake) * "ocupatz'" instead of "ocupatzi" (spelling mistake) * "care sunt ocupatzi in general in domeniul agriculturii" (not an error, but awkward usage of the language)
Anyway, I don't see how would one user affect this. :-)
Saturday, June 24, 2006, 6:43:59 PM, you wrote:
MW> Their username is written in Moldovan Cyrillic. I don't know whether MW> or not they're a native speaker, but they are the first person in a MW> while besides me to create new pages in correctly-spelt Moldovan.
MW> I know I will get accusations from the Romanian camp of sockpuppetry; MW> I assure you this is not my sockpuppet, you may check if you would MW> like.
MW> Whoever this is, though, they've certainly made this whole thing more MW> interesting for me, at least.
If that's the real issue here, why didn't you vote to delete the Kanuri Wikipedia?
Face it: the real issue here is Cyrillic. You're trying to mask it.
As it is, the Moldovan Wikipedia is growing weekly. I have heard vague complaints that there are "too many mistakes", but the people who say such things never give examples when asked to elaborate, leading me to believe that they are just full of hot air.
Also, check out http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesArticlesBytesPerArticle.htm
The Romanian Wikipedia may pretend to be huge, but most of it's stubs and one-word articles. You have 1407 bytes per article.
The Moldovan Wikipedia, on the other hand, weighs in at 2491 bytes per article.
...and, if I were administrator right now, I would've deleted all of the empty and spam articles, substantially increasing that number.
Your Wikipedia may be larger than ours, but ours is higher quality. Maybe we should delete the Romanian Wikipedia instead? As you can see, it is clearly substandard -- the only Wikipedia of its size with less bytes per article is the Swedish Wikipedia. No other Wikipedia is as low, until you get down under 7000 articles.
Mark
On 24/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
... it should be closed now
Amen ! (I cut the oppinion of Francis Tyers out of a context that hides it).
If only it were possible to get a non-involved party to look at this for 5 minutes and decide one way or the other. It would save everyone a hell of a lot of time. What we need is a knee jerk binding judgement! (of course this is said partly in jest, but we really aren't going to get anywhere by 'discussing' this).
Well, **you** of all are non-involved. And after following this discussion for a **long** time you ended with the same conclusion: Regardless of what the Moldovan language is or is not, there are no native contributors, and there is one single contributor overall (who actually cannot contribute because he is at level mo-2). Isn't this enough?
Dpotop
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Your Wikipedia may be larger than ours, but ours is higher quality. Maybe we should delete the Romanian Wikipedia instead? As you can see, it is clearly substandard -- the only Wikipedia of its size with less bytes per article is the Swedish Wikipedia. No other Wikipedia is as low, until you get down under 7000 articles.
Mark
I'm not particularly getting involved in this whole Moldovan argument again, but I think your point above is highly misleading. The Moldovan Wikipedia is not in any way of higher quality than the Romanian Wikipedia, because byte size doesn't reflect this, for two reasons:
1) Nearly all articles on the Moldovan wiki have a corresponding Romanian article of the same or greater length. This is because a significant number of them were transliterated from the Romanian Wikipedia. 2) The grammatical quality of the mo: articles is arguably lower. This is the more subtle aspect of quality, and also includes things like depth of coverage and systemic bias.
So, the Romanian Wikipedia is of a higher functionality than the mo.wiki, and its quality is also higher, because it basically contains all of the info that mo. contains, plus more.
In any case, the argument for closing the mo:wiki was that it is has poor quality articles and is a playground for trolling, not that it particularly has a low article or byte-size count.
On 24/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
... it should be closed now
Amen ! (I cut the oppinion of Francis Tyers out of a context that hides it).
If only it were possible to get a non-involved party to look at this
for
5 minutes and decide one way or the other. It would save everyone a
hell
of a lot of time. What we need is a knee jerk binding judgement! (of course this is said partly in jest, but we really aren't going to get anywhere by 'discussing' this).
Well, **you** of all are non-involved. And after following this
discussion for a **long** time you ended with the same conclusion: Regardless of what the Moldovan language is or is not, there are no native contributors, and there is one single contributor overall (who actually cannot contribute because he is at level mo-2). Isn't this enough?
Dpotop
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Salut Ronline,
Nu stiu daca ai urmarit ultima discutie referitoare la wikipedia moldoveneasca, dar la un moment dat Mark Williamson mi-a trimis un mesaj injurios.
Acum, vor si altii sa il vada, in cont, ca sa se asigure ca intr-adevar el l-a trimis. Insa e vorba de un cont Yahoo, si deci daca dau acces la el si e sters mesajul nu mai am "dovada". :)
Am deci nevoie de un trustee, un user respectat pe wikipedia, care sa se uite primul si sa vada mesajul acolo. Apoi, poate sa se uite cine o vrea.
Ai putea, te rog, sa fii trustee in directia asta? Daca da, iti trimit parola, te uiti, si eventual faci o copie a mesajului.
Numai bine, Jacky (Dpotop)
ps: Cel care vrea sa se uite e Liviu Andronic. Tu stii cumva cine e?
--- "Wikipedia Romania (Ronline)" rowikipedia@gmail.com wrote:
Your Wikipedia may be larger than ours, but ours
is higher quality.
Maybe we should delete the Romanian Wikipedia
instead? As you can see,
it is clearly substandard -- the only Wikipedia of
its size with less
bytes per article is the Swedish Wikipedia. No
other Wikipedia is as
low, until you get down under 7000 articles.
Mark
I'm not particularly getting involved in this whole Moldovan argument again, but I think your point above is highly misleading. The Moldovan Wikipedia is not in any way of higher quality than the Romanian Wikipedia, because byte size doesn't reflect this, for two reasons:
- Nearly all articles on the Moldovan wiki have a
corresponding Romanian article of the same or greater length. This is because a significant number of them were transliterated from the Romanian Wikipedia. 2) The grammatical quality of the mo: articles is arguably lower. This is the more subtle aspect of quality, and also includes things like depth of coverage and systemic bias.
So, the Romanian Wikipedia is of a higher functionality than the mo.wiki, and its quality is also higher, because it basically contains all of the info that mo. contains, plus more.
In any case, the argument for closing the mo:wiki was that it is has poor quality articles and is a playground for trolling, not that it particularly has a low article or byte-size count.
On 24/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
... it should be closed now
Amen ! (I cut the oppinion of Francis Tyers out of a
context that hides it).
If only it were possible to get a non-involved
party to look at this
for
5 minutes and decide one way or the other. It
would save everyone a
hell
of a lot of time. What we need is a knee jerk
binding judgement! (of
course this is said partly in jest, but we
really aren't going to get
anywhere by 'discussing' this).
Well, **you** of all are non-involved. And after
following this
discussion for a **long** time you ended with the
same conclusion:
Regardless of what the Moldovan language is or is
not, there are no native
contributors, and there is one single contributor
overall (who actually
cannot contribute because he is at level mo-2).
Isn't this enough?
Dpotop
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo!
Small Business.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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Jacky, you were told to drop this, remember? Fred Bauder said he believes you, but that it doesn't matter.
The message was obviously not meant to be sent to the list, but since it was I shall translate.
Salut Ronline,
Nu stiu daca ai urmarit ultima discutie referitoare la wikipedia moldoveneasca, dar la un moment dat Mark Williamson mi-a trimis un mesaj injurios.
Hi Ronline,
I don't know if you've been following the most recent discussion about the Moldovan Wikipedia, but at one point Mark Williamson sent me an offensive message.
Acum, vor si altii sa il vada, in cont, ca sa se asigure ca intr-adevar el l-a trimis. Insa e vorba de un cont Yahoo, si deci daca dau acces la el si e sters mesajul nu mai am "dovada". :)
Now, I want to make sure that others can see what he has sent. I am using a Yahoo account, and I can give you access to it and delete all personal messages.
Am deci nevoie de un trustee, un user respectat pe wikipedia, care sa se uite primul si sa vada mesajul acolo. Apoi, poate sa se uite cine o vrea.
I need a trustee, a respected Wikipedian, who can see the message there.
Ai putea, te rog, sa fii trustee in directia asta? Daca da, iti trimit parola, te uiti, si eventual faci o copie a mesajului.
Can you please be the trustee? If yes, I shall send you the password and a copy of the message.
This was an obvious mistake, and everybody saw it. Sorry everybody. The "reply-to" of the list messages can be tricky sometimes, especially when one is used to talking with individual users.
Also, I'm not sure that you, of all, should police this list. It seems to me that it's you that floods wikipedia-l since I send my final message on the subject one day ago.
Finally, YOUR TRANSLATION OF MY MESSAGE IS INCORRECT AND DECEPTIVE. I did not initiate a process of showing the message to the others. I have been asked to show it. By Liviu. That's a huge difference. Otherwise said, you either do not know Romanian, or purposefully mistranslated paragraph 2.
For me, this issue is over. Mo.wiki is freezed. So, Mark, please leave me alone, I have other stuff to do.
:en:Dpotop
--- Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Jacky, you were told to drop this, remember? Fred Bauder said he believes you, but that it doesn't matter.
The message was obviously not meant to be sent to the list, but since it was I shall translate.
Salut Ronline,
Nu stiu daca ai urmarit ultima discutie
referitoare la
wikipedia moldoveneasca, dar la un moment dat Mark Williamson mi-a trimis un mesaj injurios.
Hi Ronline,
I don't know if you've been following the most recent discussion about the Moldovan Wikipedia, but at one point Mark Williamson sent me an offensive message.
Acum, vor si altii sa il vada, in cont, ca sa se asigure ca intr-adevar el l-a trimis. Insa e vorba
de
un cont Yahoo, si deci daca dau acces la el si e
sters
mesajul nu mai am "dovada". :)
Now, I want to make sure that others can see what he has sent. I am using a Yahoo account, and I can give you access to it and delete all personal messages.
Am deci nevoie de un trustee, un user respectat pe wikipedia, care sa se uite primul si sa vada
mesajul
acolo. Apoi, poate sa se uite cine o vrea.
I need a trustee, a respected Wikipedian, who can see the message there.
Ai putea, te rog, sa fii trustee in directia asta? Daca da, iti trimit parola, te uiti, si eventual
faci
o copie a mesajului.
Can you please be the trustee? If yes, I shall send you the password and a copy of the message. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
The correct translation follows. Sorry, but half truths are often worse than an outright lie.
:en:Dpotop
Salut Ronline,
Nu stiu daca ai urmarit ultima discutie
referitoare la
wikipedia moldoveneasca, dar la un moment dat
Mark
Williamson mi-a trimis un mesaj injurios.
Hello Ronline,
I do not know if you've been following the last discussion on the Moldovan wikipedia, but at one point Mark Williamson sent me an offensive message.
Acum, vor si altii sa il vada, in cont, ca sa se asigure ca intr-adevar el l-a trimis. Insa e
vorba
de
un cont Yahoo, si deci daca dau acces la el si e
sters
mesajul nu mai am "dovada". :)
Now, some others want to see the message in the account, so that they can be sure he sent it. But it's a Yahoo account, so that if I give access to it and the message is deleted there is no more "proof". :)
Am deci nevoie de un trustee, un user respectat
pe
wikipedia, care sa se uite primul si sa vada
mesajul
acolo. Apoi, poate sa se uite cine o vrea.
Therefore, I need a trustee, a respected wikipedia user, to look there first and see the message there. Then, anybody can take a look.
Ai putea, te rog, sa fii trustee in directia
asta?
Daca da, iti trimit parola, te uiti, si eventual
faci
o copie a mesajului.
Can you, please, be the trustee on this matter? If yes, I will send you the password, you take a look, and possibly make a copy of the message.
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
I really think this is an over-valued conflict, but why not make a screenshot of the message in the yahoo-account (yes that can be forged, too), best showing also the message headers, and upload that to META or COMMONS?
The correct translation follows. Sorry, but half truths are often worse than an outright lie.
:en:Dpotop
Salut Ronline,
Nu stiu daca ai urmarit ultima discutie
referitoare la
wikipedia moldoveneasca, dar la un moment dat
Mark
Williamson mi-a trimis un mesaj injurios.
Hello Ronline,
I do not know if you've been following the last discussion on the Moldovan wikipedia, but at one point Mark Williamson sent me an offensive message.
Acum, vor si altii sa il vada, in cont, ca sa se asigure ca intr-adevar el l-a trimis. Insa e
vorba
de
un cont Yahoo, si deci daca dau acces la el si e
sters
mesajul nu mai am "dovada". :)
Now, some others want to see the message in the account, so that they can be sure he sent it. But it's a Yahoo account, so that if I give access to it and the message is deleted there is no more "proof". :)
Am deci nevoie de un trustee, un user respectat
pe
wikipedia, care sa se uite primul si sa vada
mesajul
acolo. Apoi, poate sa se uite cine o vrea.
Therefore, I need a trustee, a respected wikipedia user, to look there first and see the message there. Then, anybody can take a look.
Ai putea, te rog, sa fii trustee in directia
asta?
Daca da, iti trimit parola, te uiti, si eventual
faci
o copie a mesajului.
Can you, please, be the trustee on this matter? If yes, I will send you the password, you take a look, and possibly make a copy of the message.
Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
__ . / / / / ... Till Westermayer - till we *) . . . mailto:till@tillwe.de . www.westermayer.de/till/ . icq 320393072 . Hirschstraße 5. 79100 Freiburg . 0761 55697152 . 0160 96619179 . . . . .
Nobody wanted to see the message in the account. You have not been reading. People clearly do not care. Your translation is deceptive and incorrect. You do not know Romanian.
Mark
On 04/07/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
This was an obvious mistake, and everybody saw it. Sorry everybody. The "reply-to" of the list messages can be tricky sometimes, especially when one is used to talking with individual users.
Also, I'm not sure that you, of all, should police this list. It seems to me that it's you that floods wikipedia-l since I send my final message on the subject one day ago.
Finally, YOUR TRANSLATION OF MY MESSAGE IS INCORRECT AND DECEPTIVE. I did not initiate a process of showing the message to the others. I have been asked to show it. By Liviu. That's a huge difference. Otherwise said, you either do not know Romanian, or purposefully mistranslated paragraph 2.
For me, this issue is over. Mo.wiki is freezed. So, Mark, please leave me alone, I have other stuff to do.
:en:Dpotop
--- Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Jacky, you were told to drop this, remember? Fred Bauder said he believes you, but that it doesn't matter.
The message was obviously not meant to be sent to the list, but since it was I shall translate.
Salut Ronline,
Nu stiu daca ai urmarit ultima discutie
referitoare la
wikipedia moldoveneasca, dar la un moment dat Mark Williamson mi-a trimis un mesaj injurios.
Hi Ronline,
I don't know if you've been following the most recent discussion about the Moldovan Wikipedia, but at one point Mark Williamson sent me an offensive message.
Acum, vor si altii sa il vada, in cont, ca sa se asigure ca intr-adevar el l-a trimis. Insa e vorba
de
un cont Yahoo, si deci daca dau acces la el si e
sters
mesajul nu mai am "dovada". :)
Now, I want to make sure that others can see what he has sent. I am using a Yahoo account, and I can give you access to it and delete all personal messages.
Am deci nevoie de un trustee, un user respectat pe wikipedia, care sa se uite primul si sa vada
mesajul
acolo. Apoi, poate sa se uite cine o vrea.
I need a trustee, a respected Wikipedian, who can see the message there.
Ai putea, te rog, sa fii trustee in directia asta? Daca da, iti trimit parola, te uiti, si eventual
faci
o copie a mesajului.
Can you please be the trustee? If yes, I shall send you the password and a copy of the message. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org
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Now, here's some proof of deception.
Jacky/Dpotop claims here that the reasoning behind the proposal to close the Moldovan Wikipedia is that there are no native contributors (which is no longer true exactly).
As this message from an ally of his, Dapiks/Constanteanu shows, this is not the case; rather it is politically motivated:
"Buna,
A inceput un vot pentru stergerea "Wikipediei Moldovenesti", o creatie a unui Evreu-American, cu origini suspecte in Basarabia si care nu vorbeste limba wikipediei la care pretinde a fi sysop. Il cheama Node ue si pentru a crea impresia ca lumea doreste aceasta wikipedie, a apelat la toti utilizatorii rusi care au venit sa voteze de partea lui desi nu cunosc bine subiectul si li s-a spus ca voteaza pentru supravietuirea alfabetului chirilic. Asa a ajuns ca votul sa fie 31 pentru stergerea Mo wiki, si 42 impotriva stergerii - deci in alte cuvinte pentru pastrarea wikipediei in limba "moldoveneasca". Vino si voteaza aici[1] , ca sa sergem acesta creatura cu miros bolshevic, care insulta toti romanii de pe ambele maluri ale Prutului. Node ue le-a spus rusilor sa traduca mesajul lui in limba rusa si sa-l transmita mai departe. Trimite si tu mesajul acesta la toti utilizatorii romani-unionisti sau romani-moldoveni unionisti pe care-i cunosti pe en.wiki sau ro.wiki. Dapiks 23:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)"
Hopefully some of you can guess what this means, but I will give you a summary of what he said.
He says that a vote has begun for the deletion of the "Moldovan Wikipedia" (in quotes), notes that it is the "creation of a Jewish-American with possible origins in Bessarabia" (Bessarabia is a historical term here used in a derogatory context to refer to the modern-day Republic of Moldova). He goes on to say that the Jewish-American's name is "Node ue", and that this person has "called all Russian users to vote on his side even though they do not know the subject well". He then notes the current number of votes in a belittling manner. He goes on to urge people to come and vote to delete "this ugly Bolshevik creation which insults all Romanians on both sides of the Pruth".
The particularly political part is at the end when he says "Send this message also to all Romanian or Romano-Moldovan unionist users which you know on en.wiki or mo.wiki."
An urge to spread a message to only people of a certain political background seems unacceptable. Yes, I did post at the village pump of the Russian Wikipedia and request a message to be translated into Russian (according to some Romanians, my message was anti-Romanian and deceptive, however when Dpotop posted a counter-argument, most Russians continued to maintain previous opinions). However, I encouraged EVERYONE to vote, which ultimately included one Russian user who voted for the closing of mo.wikipedia.
Mark
On 24/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello everybody,
Remember, you decided to leave the Moldovan wikipedia freezed, but not completely deleted. Now, its unique contributor [[:en:User:Node_ue]], is back (probably on school holiday), with his anti-Romanian edits. I cite from [[:mo:Wikipedia_talk:Administrator]]:
<i> Please don't write in Romanian here, write Moldovan. Every time you write Romanian on the Moldovan wikipedia, god kills a kitten. </i>
No to mention that he initiated a vote to become again sysop, then tried to falsify the results (because they were not favourable). The current version of the page [[:mo:Wikipedia:Administrator]] is that rigged by Node_ue, but take a look at the history on the vote page [http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator&oldid=...], which shows the true result of the vote according to the original rules set by Node_ue.
After this, he managed to invite the entire Russian wikipedia to take position on a language they know nothing about here: [[:meta:Proposals for closing projects]]. Take a look at his post here [[:ru:Википедия:Форум/Новости#Moldovan]], and notice the blatant lie concerning the cyrillic script (whereas the problem is in fact the absence of Moldovan editors).
In the meantime, Node_ue is copying articles from ro.wiki to mo.wiki and pretends they are in a different language.
It must be noted that he is the only one on the entire wikipedia (all wikipedias took together) to pretend speaking a "Moldovan language" different from the Romanian one. Just take a look at [[:en:Category:User mo]], [[:mo:Category:User mo]], [[:ro:Category:User mo]], [[:ru:Category:User mo]].
Moreover he himself places himself at level mo-2. I can assure you this guy isn't able to write correct text in Moldovan. Any native Moldovan can tell you the same (in fact, this is why he keeps copying articles from ro.wiki).
While no native Moldovan editor exists, the Moldovan wikipedia will continue to be a political statement that exacerbates nationalisms from Romania, Russia, and Moldova itself, and a playground for clever and stupid trolls.
It should be closed until a native Moldovan editor requires its re-opening and assumes admin rights.
This argument has already been put forward here [[:meta:Proposals for closing projects#What decision makers need to know]].
Yours sincerely, [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
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Am I the only one here that is completely an utterly confused?
mboverload_confused
On 6/27/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Now, here's some proof of deception.
Jacky/Dpotop claims here that the reasoning behind the proposal to close the Moldovan Wikipedia is that there are no native contributors (which is no longer true exactly).
As this message from an ally of his, Dapiks/Constanteanu shows, this is not the case; rather it is politically motivated:
"Buna,
A inceput un vot pentru stergerea "Wikipediei Moldovenesti", o creatie a unui Evreu-American, cu origini suspecte in Basarabia si care nu vorbeste limba wikipediei la care pretinde a fi sysop. Il cheama Node ue si pentru a crea impresia ca lumea doreste aceasta wikipedie, a apelat la toti utilizatorii rusi care au venit sa voteze de partea lui desi nu cunosc bine subiectul si li s-a spus ca voteaza pentru supravietuirea alfabetului chirilic. Asa a ajuns ca votul sa fie 31 pentru stergerea Mo wiki, si 42 impotriva stergerii - deci in alte cuvinte pentru pastrarea wikipediei in limba "moldoveneasca". Vino si voteaza aici[1] , ca sa sergem acesta creatura cu miros bolshevic, care insulta toti romanii de pe ambele maluri ale Prutului. Node ue le-a spus rusilor sa traduca mesajul lui in limba rusa si sa-l transmita mai departe. Trimite si tu mesajul acesta la toti utilizatorii romani-unionisti sau romani-moldoveni unionisti pe care-i cunosti pe en.wiki sau ro.wiki. Dapiks 23:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)"
Hopefully some of you can guess what this means, but I will give you a summary of what he said.
He says that a vote has begun for the deletion of the "Moldovan Wikipedia" (in quotes), notes that it is the "creation of a Jewish-American with possible origins in Bessarabia" (Bessarabia is a historical term here used in a derogatory context to refer to the modern-day Republic of Moldova). He goes on to say that the Jewish-American's name is "Node ue", and that this person has "called all Russian users to vote on his side even though they do not know the subject well". He then notes the current number of votes in a belittling manner. He goes on to urge people to come and vote to delete "this ugly Bolshevik creation which insults all Romanians on both sides of the Pruth".
The particularly political part is at the end when he says "Send this message also to all Romanian or Romano-Moldovan unionist users which you know on en.wiki or mo.wiki."
An urge to spread a message to only people of a certain political background seems unacceptable. Yes, I did post at the village pump of the Russian Wikipedia and request a message to be translated into Russian (according to some Romanians, my message was anti-Romanian and deceptive, however when Dpotop posted a counter-argument, most Russians continued to maintain previous opinions). However, I encouraged EVERYONE to vote, which ultimately included one Russian user who voted for the closing of mo.wikipedia.
Mark
On 24/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello everybody,
Remember, you decided to leave the Moldovan wikipedia freezed, but not
completely deleted. Now, its unique contributor [[:en:User:Node_ue]], is back (probably on school holiday), with his anti-Romanian edits. I cite from [[:mo:Wikipedia_talk:Administrator]]:
<i> Please don't write in Romanian here, write Moldovan. Every time you
write Romanian on the Moldovan wikipedia, god kills a kitten. </i>
No to mention that he initiated a vote to become again sysop, then tried
to falsify the results (because they were not favourable). The current version of the page [[:mo:Wikipedia:Administrator]] is that rigged by Node_ue, but take a look at the history on the vote page [ http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator&oldid=...], which shows the true result of the vote according to the original rules set by Node_ue.
After this, he managed to invite the entire Russian wikipedia to take
position on a language they know nothing about here: [[:meta:Proposals for closing projects]]. Take a look at his post here [[:ru:Википедия:Форум/Новости#Moldovan]], and notice the blatant lie concerning the cyrillic script (whereas the problem is in fact the absence of Moldovan editors).
In the meantime, Node_ue is copying articles from ro.wiki to mo.wiki and
pretends they are in a different language.
It must be noted that he is the only one on the entire wikipedia (all
wikipedias took together) to pretend speaking a "Moldovan language" different from the Romanian one. Just take a look at [[:en:Category:User mo]], [[:mo:Category:User mo]], [[:ro:Category:User mo]], [[:ru:Category:User mo]].
Moreover he himself places himself at level mo-2. I can assure you this
guy isn't able to write correct text in Moldovan. Any native Moldovan can tell you the same (in fact, this is why he keeps copying articles from ro.wiki).
While no native Moldovan editor exists, the Moldovan wikipedia will
continue to be a political statement that exacerbates nationalisms from Romania, Russia, and Moldova itself, and a playground for clever and stupid trolls.
It should be closed until a native Moldovan editor requires its
re-opening and assumes admin rights.
This argument has already been put forward here [[:meta:Proposals for
closing projects#What decision makers need to know]].
Yours sincerely, [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
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Probably not. Dpotop's original message assumed that everyone was already familiar with the situation.
I will give a brief summary, trying to be unbiased -- i.e., I will include the points of view of some of my opponents.
Some background --
According to some people, Moldovan is a synonym for Romanian. According to some people, the Cyrillic alphabet was imposed on the Moldovan ASSR by Stalin. According to others, the Cyrillic alphabet was in continuous use in the MASSR thruought its history with an exception of 15 years in the interwar period.
There are additional (and mostly irrelvant) arguments about whether or not Moldovan was created as a separate language from Romanian by Stalin, or whether it developed naturally.
That aside, the main issue here seems to be use of the Cyrillic script.
According to some people, nobody uses the Cyrillic script to write this language anymore. According to other people, all people who use the script are forced to against their will. According to yet others, there are people who use the script by choice.
According to all parties involved, "Moldovan" using the Cyrillic script is one of 3 official languages of Transnistria. What is disputed, however, is the status of Transnistria. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria for details.
Some people have gone so far as to say a Wikipedia using Cyrillic script is an insult "to all Romanians who died" at the hands of Stalin for the Latin alphabet, although that is a bit of a stretch.
Another contentious issue is the quality of the Wikipedia. There have been allegations of poor grammar, misspellings, etc., but the people who claim they exist don't bother to point them out or fix them.
You may judge the quality of the articles yourself, see http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Randompage
There are other issues, for example the villification of yours truly by the other side as "an evil stalinistic KGB Jewish-American Russian agent who does not know Romanian". Perhaps not in the same sentence, but I have been called all of the above at some point or another in some language.
Ironically, the "does not know Romanian" part is usually accused in Romanian, and I understand it. (To be fair, Danutz would beg to differ -- he claims to have "figured out" how I supposedly use a machine translator to read and write)
Mark
On 27/06/06, mboverload mboverload@gmail.com wrote:
Am I the only one here that is completely an utterly confused?
mboverload_confused
On 6/27/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Now, here's some proof of deception.
Jacky/Dpotop claims here that the reasoning behind the proposal to close the Moldovan Wikipedia is that there are no native contributors (which is no longer true exactly).
As this message from an ally of his, Dapiks/Constanteanu shows, this is not the case; rather it is politically motivated:
"Buna,
A inceput un vot pentru stergerea "Wikipediei Moldovenesti", o creatie a unui Evreu-American, cu origini suspecte in Basarabia si care nu vorbeste limba wikipediei la care pretinde a fi sysop. Il cheama Node ue si pentru a crea impresia ca lumea doreste aceasta wikipedie, a apelat la toti utilizatorii rusi care au venit sa voteze de partea lui desi nu cunosc bine subiectul si li s-a spus ca voteaza pentru supravietuirea alfabetului chirilic. Asa a ajuns ca votul sa fie 31 pentru stergerea Mo wiki, si 42 impotriva stergerii - deci in alte cuvinte pentru pastrarea wikipediei in limba "moldoveneasca". Vino si voteaza aici[1] , ca sa sergem acesta creatura cu miros bolshevic, care insulta toti romanii de pe ambele maluri ale Prutului. Node ue le-a spus rusilor sa traduca mesajul lui in limba rusa si sa-l transmita mai departe. Trimite si tu mesajul acesta la toti utilizatorii romani-unionisti sau romani-moldoveni unionisti pe care-i cunosti pe en.wiki sau ro.wiki. Dapiks 23:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)"
Hopefully some of you can guess what this means, but I will give you a summary of what he said.
He says that a vote has begun for the deletion of the "Moldovan Wikipedia" (in quotes), notes that it is the "creation of a Jewish-American with possible origins in Bessarabia" (Bessarabia is a historical term here used in a derogatory context to refer to the modern-day Republic of Moldova). He goes on to say that the Jewish-American's name is "Node ue", and that this person has "called all Russian users to vote on his side even though they do not know the subject well". He then notes the current number of votes in a belittling manner. He goes on to urge people to come and vote to delete "this ugly Bolshevik creation which insults all Romanians on both sides of the Pruth".
The particularly political part is at the end when he says "Send this message also to all Romanian or Romano-Moldovan unionist users which you know on en.wiki or mo.wiki."
An urge to spread a message to only people of a certain political background seems unacceptable. Yes, I did post at the village pump of the Russian Wikipedia and request a message to be translated into Russian (according to some Romanians, my message was anti-Romanian and deceptive, however when Dpotop posted a counter-argument, most Russians continued to maintain previous opinions). However, I encouraged EVERYONE to vote, which ultimately included one Russian user who voted for the closing of mo.wikipedia.
Mark
On 24/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello everybody,
Remember, you decided to leave the Moldovan wikipedia freezed, but not
completely deleted. Now, its unique contributor [[:en:User:Node_ue]], is back (probably on school holiday), with his anti-Romanian edits. I cite from [[:mo:Wikipedia_talk:Administrator]]:
<i> Please don't write in Romanian here, write Moldovan. Every time you
write Romanian on the Moldovan wikipedia, god kills a kitten. </i>
No to mention that he initiated a vote to become again sysop, then tried
to falsify the results (because they were not favourable). The current version of the page [[:mo:Wikipedia:Administrator]] is that rigged by Node_ue, but take a look at the history on the vote page [ http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator&oldid=...], which shows the true result of the vote according to the original rules set by Node_ue.
After this, he managed to invite the entire Russian wikipedia to take
position on a language they know nothing about here: [[:meta:Proposals for closing projects]]. Take a look at his post here [[:ru:Википедия:Форум/Новости#Moldovan]], and notice the blatant lie concerning the cyrillic script (whereas the problem is in fact the absence of Moldovan editors).
In the meantime, Node_ue is copying articles from ro.wiki to mo.wiki and
pretends they are in a different language.
It must be noted that he is the only one on the entire wikipedia (all
wikipedias took together) to pretend speaking a "Moldovan language" different from the Romanian one. Just take a look at [[:en:Category:User mo]], [[:mo:Category:User mo]], [[:ro:Category:User mo]], [[:ru:Category:User mo]].
Moreover he himself places himself at level mo-2. I can assure you this
guy isn't able to write correct text in Moldovan. Any native Moldovan can tell you the same (in fact, this is why he keeps copying articles from ro.wiki).
While no native Moldovan editor exists, the Moldovan wikipedia will
continue to be a political statement that exacerbates nationalisms from Romania, Russia, and Moldova itself, and a playground for clever and stupid trolls.
It should be closed until a native Moldovan editor requires its
re-opening and assumes admin rights.
This argument has already been put forward here [[:meta:Proposals for
closing projects#What decision makers need to know]].
Yours sincerely, [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
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Hello everybody,
After sending my point of view here, I presumed someone was going to investigate the matter, by asking questions and LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THE FACTS. To my surprise, this did not happen (maybe every high-rank admin is in vacations?).
As I noticed in my initial post of June 24th, the this lack of decision can only lead to the situation coarsing, and the various parts stacking all sorts of oppinions. This is true for the Romanians and for the few Romanian-speaking Moldovans that support the deletion of this wikipedia. This is also true for Mark Williamson (User:Node_ue) and for the Russians that support him. There is no nativ Moldovan speaker supporting mo.wikipedia.
Now, to come back to the facts. I suggest reading my post of June 24th, which is not, as Mark says, too high-level. It mainly notices three facts, that can easily be checked (despite all the hands-waving of Mark):
1. THERE IS NO NATIVE MOLDOVAN SPEAKER HERE ON WIKIPEDIA.
2. 99% of the articles of mo.wikipedia have been copied from ro.wikipedia with just the script changed from Latin to Cyrillic, by Mark (Usedr:Node_ue).
3. Mark assumes for himself a level mo-2, meaning that he is not able to write text in Moldovan.
All the other users on mo.wikipedia are either against Mark (including some trolls), or create 1-line incorrect articles, or simply move around interwiki links to give the impression something happens.
This means that there is NO COMMUNITY, and that mo.wikipedia is nothing more than a political statement without any other content. Is this the vocation of wikipedia?
MY SUGGESTION: LOOK AT THE FACTS DIRECTLY on mo.wikipedia. Hands waiving and sending message after message with FUD is the strong point of Mark. But he cannot alter edit histories, nor user lists.
Please, look at the facts yourself.
Yours, [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
--------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
And you're accusing me of spreading FUD? Psht.
Mark
On 28/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello everybody,
After sending my point of view here, I presumed someone was going to investigate the matter, by asking questions and LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THE FACTS. To my surprise, this did not happen (maybe every high-rank admin is in vacations?).
As I noticed in my initial post of June 24th, the this lack of decision can only lead to the situation coarsing, and the various parts stacking all sorts of oppinions. This is true for the Romanians and for the few Romanian-speaking Moldovans that support the deletion of this wikipedia. This is also true for Mark Williamson (User:Node_ue) and for the Russians that support him. There is no nativ Moldovan speaker supporting mo.wikipedia.
Now, to come back to the facts. I suggest reading my post of June 24th, which is not, as Mark says, too high-level. It mainly notices three facts, that can easily be checked (despite all the hands-waving of Mark):
THERE IS NO NATIVE MOLDOVAN SPEAKER HERE ON WIKIPEDIA.
99% of the articles of mo.wikipedia have been copied from ro.wikipedia with just the script changed from Latin to Cyrillic, by Mark (Usedr:Node_ue).
Mark assumes for himself a level mo-2, meaning that he is not able to write text in Moldovan.
All the other users on mo.wikipedia are either against Mark (including some trolls), or create 1-line incorrect articles, or simply move around interwiki links to give the impression something happens.
This means that there is NO COMMUNITY, and that mo.wikipedia is nothing more than a political statement without any other content. Is this the vocation of wikipedia?
MY SUGGESTION: LOOK AT THE FACTS DIRECTLY on mo.wikipedia. Hands waiving and sending message after message with FUD is the strong point of Mark. But he cannot alter edit histories, nor user lists.
Please, look at the facts yourself.
Yours, [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
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QUESTION: I don't care if they're native, are there any "near native" speakers of "MOLDOVAN" on en.wikipedia.org?
mboverload
On 6/28/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
And you're accusing me of spreading FUD? Psht.
Mark
On 28/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello everybody,
After sending my point of view here, I presumed someone was going to
investigate the matter, by asking questions and LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THE FACTS. To my surprise, this did not happen (maybe every high-rank admin is in vacations?).
As I noticed in my initial post of June 24th, the this lack of decision
can only lead to the situation coarsing, and the various parts stacking all sorts of oppinions. This is true for the Romanians and for the few Romanian-speaking Moldovans that support the deletion of this wikipedia. This is also true for Mark Williamson (User:Node_ue) and for the Russians that support him. There is no nativ Moldovan speaker supporting mo.wikipedia.
Now, to come back to the facts. I suggest reading my post of June 24th,
which is not, as Mark says, too high-level. It mainly notices three facts, that can easily be checked (despite all the hands-waving of Mark):
THERE IS NO NATIVE MOLDOVAN SPEAKER HERE ON WIKIPEDIA.
99% of the articles of mo.wikipedia have been copied from
ro.wikipedia with just the script changed from Latin to Cyrillic, by Mark (Usedr:Node_ue).
- Mark assumes for himself a level mo-2, meaning that he is not able
to write text in Moldovan.
All the other users on mo.wikipedia are either against Mark (including
some trolls), or create 1-line incorrect articles, or simply move around interwiki links to give the impression something happens.
This means that there is NO COMMUNITY, and that mo.wikipedia is nothing
more than a political statement without any other content. Is this the vocation of wikipedia?
MY SUGGESTION: LOOK AT THE FACTS DIRECTLY on mo.wikipedia. Hands waiving
and sending message after message with FUD is the strong point of Mark. But he cannot alter edit histories, nor user lists.
Please, look at the facts yourself.
Yours, [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2¢/min or less.
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Answer: NO!
The only registered user of Moldovan on the whole wikipedia is User:Node_ue (in en, mo, ro, etc.). And he's mo-2.
Dpotop
mboverload mboverload@gmail.com wrote: QUESTION: I don't care if they're native, are there any "near native" speakers of "MOLDOVAN" on en.wikipedia.org?
mboverload
On 6/28/06, Mark Williamson wrote:
And you're accusing me of spreading FUD? Psht.
Mark
On 28/06/06, Jacky PB wrote:
Hello everybody,
After sending my point of view here, I presumed someone was going to
investigate the matter, by asking questions and LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THE FACTS. To my surprise, this did not happen (maybe every high-rank admin is in vacations?).
As I noticed in my initial post of June 24th, the this lack of decision
can only lead to the situation coarsing, and the various parts stacking all sorts of oppinions. This is true for the Romanians and for the few Romanian-speaking Moldovans that support the deletion of this wikipedia. This is also true for Mark Williamson (User:Node_ue) and for the Russians that support him. There is no nativ Moldovan speaker supporting mo.wikipedia.
Now, to come back to the facts. I suggest reading my post of June 24th,
which is not, as Mark says, too high-level. It mainly notices three facts, that can easily be checked (despite all the hands-waving of Mark):
THERE IS NO NATIVE MOLDOVAN SPEAKER HERE ON WIKIPEDIA.
99% of the articles of mo.wikipedia have been copied from
ro.wikipedia with just the script changed from Latin to Cyrillic, by Mark (Usedr:Node_ue).
- Mark assumes for himself a level mo-2, meaning that he is not able
to write text in Moldovan.
All the other users on mo.wikipedia are either against Mark (including
some trolls), or create 1-line incorrect articles, or simply move around interwiki links to give the impression something happens.
This means that there is NO COMMUNITY, and that mo.wikipedia is nothing
more than a political statement without any other content. Is this the vocation of wikipedia?
MY SUGGESTION: LOOK AT THE FACTS DIRECTLY on mo.wikipedia. Hands waiving
and sending message after message with FUD is the strong point of Mark. But he cannot alter edit histories, nor user lists.
Please, look at the facts yourself.
Yours, [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2�/min or less.
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I'll have you know that Moldovan is my native language. It is the first language I heard, and I heard no other language until the age of 3.
Please see: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22first+language+attrition%22
Mark
On 28/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Answer: NO!
The only registered user of Moldovan on the whole wikipedia is User:Node_ue (in en, mo, ro, etc.). And he's mo-2.
Dpotop
mboverload mboverload@gmail.com wrote: QUESTION: I don't care if they're native, are there any "near native" speakers of "MOLDOVAN" on en.wikipedia.org?
mboverload
On 6/28/06, Mark Williamson wrote:
And you're accusing me of spreading FUD? Psht.
Mark
On 28/06/06, Jacky PB wrote:
Hello everybody,
After sending my point of view here, I presumed someone was going to
investigate the matter, by asking questions and LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THE FACTS. To my surprise, this did not happen (maybe every high-rank admin is in vacations?).
As I noticed in my initial post of June 24th, the this lack of decision
can only lead to the situation coarsing, and the various parts stacking all sorts of oppinions. This is true for the Romanians and for the few Romanian-speaking Moldovans that support the deletion of this wikipedia. This is also true for Mark Williamson (User:Node_ue) and for the Russians that support him. There is no nativ Moldovan speaker supporting mo.wikipedia.
Now, to come back to the facts. I suggest reading my post of June 24th,
which is not, as Mark says, too high-level. It mainly notices three facts, that can easily be checked (despite all the hands-waving of Mark):
THERE IS NO NATIVE MOLDOVAN SPEAKER HERE ON WIKIPEDIA.
99% of the articles of mo.wikipedia have been copied from
ro.wikipedia with just the script changed from Latin to Cyrillic, by Mark (Usedr:Node_ue).
- Mark assumes for himself a level mo-2, meaning that he is not able
to write text in Moldovan.
All the other users on mo.wikipedia are either against Mark (including
some trolls), or create 1-line incorrect articles, or simply move around interwiki links to give the impression something happens.
This means that there is NO COMMUNITY, and that mo.wikipedia is nothing
more than a political statement without any other content. Is this the vocation of wikipedia?
MY SUGGESTION: LOOK AT THE FACTS DIRECTLY on mo.wikipedia. Hands waiving
and sending message after message with FUD is the strong point of Mark. But he cannot alter edit histories, nor user lists.
Please, look at the facts yourself.
Yours, [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2�/min or less.
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Having said that, while I consider myself a native speaker, I would not rate myself "mo-5" on the Babel rating scale (which is basically the same as native speakers with no first language attrition), but rather I rank myself at "mo-2".
Essentially, that means I can understand it, and I can speak it to a certain degree (mostly about simple things), and I can read it and write it. However, my writing and speaking skills are very deteriorated and my grammar is very poor, and I often find myself looking in a dictionary to find the equivalent for words such as, say, "helpfulness".
For that reason, I don't write many articles myself at mo.wiki -- contrary to the allegations of some, I actually care about the quality of articles there. Instead, I mostly transliterate articles from the Romanian Wikipedia.
Mark
On 28/06/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I'll have you know that Moldovan is my native language. It is the first language I heard, and I heard no other language until the age of 3.
Please see: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22first+language+attrition%22
Mark
On 28/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Answer: NO!
The only registered user of Moldovan on the whole wikipedia is User:Node_ue (in en, mo, ro, etc.). And he's mo-2.
Dpotop
mboverload mboverload@gmail.com wrote: QUESTION: I don't care if they're native, are there any "near native" speakers of "MOLDOVAN" on en.wikipedia.org?
mboverload
On 6/28/06, Mark Williamson wrote:
And you're accusing me of spreading FUD? Psht.
Mark
On 28/06/06, Jacky PB wrote:
Hello everybody,
After sending my point of view here, I presumed someone was going to
investigate the matter, by asking questions and LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THE FACTS. To my surprise, this did not happen (maybe every high-rank admin is in vacations?).
As I noticed in my initial post of June 24th, the this lack of decision
can only lead to the situation coarsing, and the various parts stacking all sorts of oppinions. This is true for the Romanians and for the few Romanian-speaking Moldovans that support the deletion of this wikipedia. This is also true for Mark Williamson (User:Node_ue) and for the Russians that support him. There is no nativ Moldovan speaker supporting mo.wikipedia.
Now, to come back to the facts. I suggest reading my post of June 24th,
which is not, as Mark says, too high-level. It mainly notices three facts, that can easily be checked (despite all the hands-waving of Mark):
THERE IS NO NATIVE MOLDOVAN SPEAKER HERE ON WIKIPEDIA.
99% of the articles of mo.wikipedia have been copied from
ro.wikipedia with just the script changed from Latin to Cyrillic, by Mark (Usedr:Node_ue).
- Mark assumes for himself a level mo-2, meaning that he is not able
to write text in Moldovan.
All the other users on mo.wikipedia are either against Mark (including
some trolls), or create 1-line incorrect articles, or simply move around interwiki links to give the impression something happens.
This means that there is NO COMMUNITY, and that mo.wikipedia is nothing
more than a political statement without any other content. Is this the vocation of wikipedia?
MY SUGGESTION: LOOK AT THE FACTS DIRECTLY on mo.wikipedia. Hands waiving
and sending message after message with FUD is the strong point of Mark. But he cannot alter edit histories, nor user lists.
Please, look at the facts yourself.
Yours, [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2�/min or less.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanm� yo paske nou posede pw�p bato. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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So, to summarize your last 3 messages, we agree on the fact that nobody on the whole wikipedia is both capable and willing to edit on mo.wikipedia otherwise than by copying articles from ro.wikipedia.
To do this, you don't need a Moldovan wikipedia to do it. You need the script of Bogdan Giusca (:en:User:Bogdangiusca), which will automatically convert to cyrillic (and with far less errors than you) any article on the Romanian wikipedia. This script is already functional at
http://mcworld.org/McChirilic/?pagina=Limba_moldoveneasc%C4%83
To make it work on the article of your choice, replace the text "Limba_moldoveneasc%C4%83" with the page name of your choice.
Yours, [[:en:Dpotop]], [[:ro:Dpotop]]
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote: Having said that, while I consider myself a native speaker, I would not rate myself "mo-5" on the Babel rating scale (which is basically the same as native speakers with no first language attrition), but rather I rank myself at "mo-2".
Essentially, that means I can understand it, and I can speak it to a certain degree (mostly about simple things), and I can read it and write it. However, my writing and speaking skills are very deteriorated and my grammar is very poor, and I often find myself looking in a dictionary to find the equivalent for words such as, say, "helpfulness".
For that reason, I don't write many articles myself at mo.wiki -- contrary to the allegations of some, I actually care about the quality of articles there. Instead, I mostly transliterate articles from the Romanian Wikipedia.
Mark
On 28/06/06, Mark Williamson wrote:
I'll have you know that Moldovan is my native language. It is the first language I heard, and I heard no other language until the age of 3.
Please see: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22first+language+attrition%22
Mark
On 28/06/06, Jacky PB wrote:
Answer: NO!
The only registered user of Moldovan on the whole wikipedia is User:Node_ue (in en, mo, ro, etc.). And he's mo-2.
Dpotop
mboverload wrote: QUESTION: I don't care if they're native, are there any "near native" speakers of "MOLDOVAN" on en.wikipedia.org?
mboverload
On 6/28/06, Mark Williamson wrote:
And you're accusing me of spreading FUD? Psht.
Mark
On 28/06/06, Jacky PB wrote:
Hello everybody,
After sending my point of view here, I presumed someone was going to
investigate the matter, by asking questions and LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THE FACTS. To my surprise, this did not happen (maybe every high-rank admin is in vacations?).
As I noticed in my initial post of June 24th, the this lack of decision
can only lead to the situation coarsing, and the various parts stacking all sorts of oppinions. This is true for the Romanians and for the few Romanian-speaking Moldovans that support the deletion of this wikipedia. This is also true for Mark Williamson (User:Node_ue) and for the Russians that support him. There is no nativ Moldovan speaker supporting mo.wikipedia.
Now, to come back to the facts. I suggest reading my post of June 24th,
which is not, as Mark says, too high-level. It mainly notices three facts, that can easily be checked (despite all the hands-waving of Mark):
THERE IS NO NATIVE MOLDOVAN SPEAKER HERE ON WIKIPEDIA.
99% of the articles of mo.wikipedia have been copied from
ro.wikipedia with just the script changed from Latin to Cyrillic, by Mark (Usedr:Node_ue).
- Mark assumes for himself a level mo-2, meaning that he is not able
to write text in Moldovan.
All the other users on mo.wikipedia are either against Mark (including
some trolls), or create 1-line incorrect articles, or simply move around interwiki links to give the impression something happens.
This means that there is NO COMMUNITY, and that mo.wikipedia is nothing
more than a political statement without any other content. Is this the vocation of wikipedia?
MY SUGGESTION: LOOK AT THE FACTS DIRECTLY on mo.wikipedia. Hands waiving
and sending message after message with FUD is the strong point of Mark. But he cannot alter edit histories, nor user lists.
Please, look at the facts yourself.
Yours, [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2�/min or less.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanm� yo paske nou posede pw�p bato. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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I don't know any "Moldovan", but if the difference between "Moldovan" and Romanian is merely a difference in the alphabet used, we don't even need an external script for the conversions: because MediaWiki already supports such conversions (this function is introduced in version 1.4). This function is currently being used on the Chinese (to convert between traditional/simplified Chinese) and Serbian (to convert between Cyrillic/Latin alphabet) Wikipedia. In fact the situation on zh: is much more complicated than merely a difference in alphabet, and I can assure you that the initial discussion on zh: (e.g. whether to split or not; whether a technical solution is adequate enough) is no less painful than the current one I see here. But as a native Chinese speaker, I think our use of a technical solution to overcome a not-so-technical problem works out pretty well so far and that we did indeed make a correct decision to not to split.
For more info: http://zh.wikipedia.org/ http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Transwiki:Wikimania05/Paper-ZZ1 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Automatic_conversion_between_simplified_and_t... http://sr.wikipedia.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Wikipedia
Another difference is Greater Romania POV.
Articles on ro.wp tend to be written slightly slanted towards a Romanian view.
Romanian Wikipedians may deny this, but one has only to compare the Romanian and English articles on [[Moldova]], [[Transnistria]], [[Igor Smirnov]], [[URSS]]/[[USSR]], etc. to know.
While some Moldovans share this opinion, the opinion base in Moldova is vastly different. While it would be best to work together, in the current situation ro.wp is dominated by a huge majority of Romanians, so any moderate or nationalist Moldovan (as opposed to unionist), or someone favouring closer ties to Russia, would likely get little say in that Wikipedia.
This situation might be considered similar to the reason why the current Bosnian, Serbian, and Croatian Wikipedias are incompatible for a merger -- there are many POV articles on each Wikipedia due to systemic biases that people do not realise are present.
If Romanian Wikipedians tried to make their articles conform to the same POV standard as the English Wikipedia does, this would not be an issue.
Mark
On 29/06/06, Lorenzarius lorenzarius@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know any "Moldovan", but if the difference between "Moldovan" and Romanian is merely a difference in the alphabet used, we don't even need an external script for the conversions: because MediaWiki already supports such conversions (this function is introduced in version 1.4). This function is currently being used on the Chinese (to convert between traditional/simplified Chinese) and Serbian (to convert between Cyrillic/Latin alphabet) Wikipedia. In fact the situation on zh: is much more complicated than merely a difference in alphabet, and I can assure you that the initial discussion on zh: (e.g. whether to split or not; whether a technical solution is adequate enough) is no less painful than the current one I see here. But as a native Chinese speaker, I think our use of a technical solution to overcome a not-so-technical problem works out pretty well so far and that we did indeed make a correct decision to not to split.
For more info: http://zh.wikipedia.org/ http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Transwiki:Wikimania05/Paper-ZZ1 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Automatic_conversion_between_simplified_and_t... http://sr.wikipedia.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Wikipedia -- Larry Lo http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lorenzarius Tel: +852 95825791 _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Is this real?
Where are the administrators of wikipedia?
This is a blatant show of maliciousness, and nobody says anything? A load of disinformation is really better than
--- Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Another difference is Greater Romania POV.
Articles on ro.wp tend to be written slightly slanted towards a Romanian view.
Romanian Wikipedians may deny this, but one has only to compare the Romanian and English articles on [[Moldova]], [[Transnistria]], [[Igor Smirnov]], [[URSS]]/[[USSR]], etc. to know.
While some Moldovans share this opinion, the opinion base in Moldova is vastly different. While it would be best to work together, in the current situation ro.wp is dominated by a huge majority of Romanians, so any moderate or nationalist Moldovan (as opposed to unionist), or someone favouring closer ties to Russia, would likely get little say in that Wikipedia.
This situation might be considered similar to the reason why the current Bosnian, Serbian, and Croatian Wikipedias are incompatible for a merger -- there are many POV articles on each Wikipedia due to systemic biases that people do not realise are present.
If Romanian Wikipedians tried to make their articles conform to the same POV standard as the English Wikipedia does, this would not be an issue.
Mark
On 29/06/06, Lorenzarius lorenzarius@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know any "Moldovan", but if the difference
between "Moldovan"
and Romanian is merely a difference in the
alphabet used, we don't
even need an external script for the conversions:
because MediaWiki
already supports such conversions (this function
is introduced in
version 1.4). This function is currently being
used on the Chinese (to
convert between traditional/simplified Chinese)
and Serbian (to
convert between Cyrillic/Latin alphabet)
Wikipedia. In fact the
situation on zh: is much more complicated than
merely a difference in
alphabet, and I can assure you that the initial
discussion on zh:
(e.g. whether to split or not; whether a technical
solution is
adequate enough) is no less painful than the
current one I see here.
But as a native Chinese speaker, I think our use
of a technical
solution to overcome a not-so-technical problem
works out pretty well
so far and that we did indeed make a correct
decision to not to split.
For more info: http://zh.wikipedia.org/
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Transwiki:Wikimania05/Paper-ZZ1
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Automatic_conversion_between_simplified_and_t...
http://sr.wikipedia.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Wikipedia -- Larry Lo http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lorenzarius Tel: +852 95825791 _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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Blatant maliciousness? Please.
As for people in charge, I'm guessing they turned their backs on this discussion months ago, precisely because of mails like yours which are trolling and accusing people, when this discussion is supposed to be about whether or not to close mo.wiki.
It seems to be that when you have to groups of people opposing one another, sometimes the option to choose is the status quo, even if it isn't the "right" thing to do.
Mark
On 29/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Is this real?
Where are the administrators of wikipedia?
This is a blatant show of maliciousness, and nobody says anything? A load of disinformation is really better than
--- Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Another difference is Greater Romania POV.
Articles on ro.wp tend to be written slightly slanted towards a Romanian view.
Romanian Wikipedians may deny this, but one has only to compare the Romanian and English articles on [[Moldova]], [[Transnistria]], [[Igor Smirnov]], [[URSS]]/[[USSR]], etc. to know.
While some Moldovans share this opinion, the opinion base in Moldova is vastly different. While it would be best to work together, in the current situation ro.wp is dominated by a huge majority of Romanians, so any moderate or nationalist Moldovan (as opposed to unionist), or someone favouring closer ties to Russia, would likely get little say in that Wikipedia.
This situation might be considered similar to the reason why the current Bosnian, Serbian, and Croatian Wikipedias are incompatible for a merger -- there are many POV articles on each Wikipedia due to systemic biases that people do not realise are present.
If Romanian Wikipedians tried to make their articles conform to the same POV standard as the English Wikipedia does, this would not be an issue.
Mark
On 29/06/06, Lorenzarius lorenzarius@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know any "Moldovan", but if the difference
between "Moldovan"
and Romanian is merely a difference in the
alphabet used, we don't
even need an external script for the conversions:
because MediaWiki
already supports such conversions (this function
is introduced in
version 1.4). This function is currently being
used on the Chinese (to
convert between traditional/simplified Chinese)
and Serbian (to
convert between Cyrillic/Latin alphabet)
Wikipedia. In fact the
situation on zh: is much more complicated than
merely a difference in
alphabet, and I can assure you that the initial
discussion on zh:
(e.g. whether to split or not; whether a technical
solution is
adequate enough) is no less painful than the
current one I see here.
But as a native Chinese speaker, I think our use
of a technical
solution to overcome a not-so-technical problem
works out pretty well
so far and that we did indeed make a correct
decision to not to split.
For more info: http://zh.wikipedia.org/
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Transwiki:Wikimania05/Paper-ZZ1
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Automatic_conversion_between_simplified_and_t...
http://sr.wikipedia.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Wikipedia -- Larry Lo http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lorenzarius Tel: +852 95825791 _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Are you sure this is the right mailing list? Are you sure you shouldn't be on some wikimedia list?
mboverload
On 6/29/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Blatant maliciousness? Please.
As for people in charge, I'm guessing they turned their backs on this discussion months ago, precisely because of mails like yours which are trolling and accusing people, when this discussion is supposed to be about whether or not to close mo.wiki.
It seems to be that when you have to groups of people opposing one another, sometimes the option to choose is the status quo, even if it isn't the "right" thing to do.
Mark
On 29/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Is this real?
Where are the administrators of wikipedia?
This is a blatant show of maliciousness, and nobody says anything? A load of disinformation is really better than
--- Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Another difference is Greater Romania POV.
Articles on ro.wp tend to be written slightly slanted towards a Romanian view.
Romanian Wikipedians may deny this, but one has only to compare the Romanian and English articles on [[Moldova]], [[Transnistria]], [[Igor Smirnov]], [[URSS]]/[[USSR]], etc. to know.
While some Moldovans share this opinion, the opinion base in Moldova is vastly different. While it would be best to work together, in the current situation ro.wp is dominated by a huge majority of Romanians, so any moderate or nationalist Moldovan (as opposed to unionist), or someone favouring closer ties to Russia, would likely get little say in that Wikipedia.
This situation might be considered similar to the reason why the current Bosnian, Serbian, and Croatian Wikipedias are incompatible for a merger -- there are many POV articles on each Wikipedia due to systemic biases that people do not realise are present.
If Romanian Wikipedians tried to make their articles conform to the same POV standard as the English Wikipedia does, this would not be an issue.
Mark
On 29/06/06, Lorenzarius lorenzarius@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know any "Moldovan", but if the difference
between "Moldovan"
and Romanian is merely a difference in the
alphabet used, we don't
even need an external script for the conversions:
because MediaWiki
already supports such conversions (this function
is introduced in
version 1.4). This function is currently being
used on the Chinese (to
convert between traditional/simplified Chinese)
and Serbian (to
convert between Cyrillic/Latin alphabet)
Wikipedia. In fact the
situation on zh: is much more complicated than
merely a difference in
alphabet, and I can assure you that the initial
discussion on zh:
(e.g. whether to split or not; whether a technical
solution is
adequate enough) is no less painful than the
current one I see here.
But as a native Chinese speaker, I think our use
of a technical
solution to overcome a not-so-technical problem
works out pretty well
so far and that we did indeed make a correct
decision to not to split.
For more info: http://zh.wikipedia.org/
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Transwiki:Wikimania05/Paper-ZZ1
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Automatic_conversion_between_simplified_and_t...
http://sr.wikipedia.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Wikipedia -- Larry Lo http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lorenzarius Tel: +852 95825791 _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
No, this issue was discussed here before, and it got a reaction from Anthere.
The difference is that people in charge simply ignore anythign with "Moldovan" in it.
By the way, voting anomalies have gone farther than before.
While there's not anything wrong really with notifying various people of a vote, when you specifically search out brand-new users of Wikipedia, and ask them to vote, that's not exactly right. See http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Razvan2001 -- this user has done that for 4 or 5 new users, and I doubt he is the only one. If this tactic is to be tolerated -- ie, brand-new users with less than 100 contribs on any project may vote -- then believe me, all my friends will be registering and voting. It is on.
Mark
On 29/06/06, mboverload mboverload@gmail.com wrote:
Are you sure this is the right mailing list? Are you sure you shouldn't be on some wikimedia list?
mboverload
On 6/29/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Blatant maliciousness? Please.
As for people in charge, I'm guessing they turned their backs on this discussion months ago, precisely because of mails like yours which are trolling and accusing people, when this discussion is supposed to be about whether or not to close mo.wiki.
It seems to be that when you have to groups of people opposing one another, sometimes the option to choose is the status quo, even if it isn't the "right" thing to do.
Mark
On 29/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Is this real?
Where are the administrators of wikipedia?
This is a blatant show of maliciousness, and nobody says anything? A load of disinformation is really better than
--- Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Another difference is Greater Romania POV.
Articles on ro.wp tend to be written slightly slanted towards a Romanian view.
Romanian Wikipedians may deny this, but one has only to compare the Romanian and English articles on [[Moldova]], [[Transnistria]], [[Igor Smirnov]], [[URSS]]/[[USSR]], etc. to know.
While some Moldovans share this opinion, the opinion base in Moldova is vastly different. While it would be best to work together, in the current situation ro.wp is dominated by a huge majority of Romanians, so any moderate or nationalist Moldovan (as opposed to unionist), or someone favouring closer ties to Russia, would likely get little say in that Wikipedia.
This situation might be considered similar to the reason why the current Bosnian, Serbian, and Croatian Wikipedias are incompatible for a merger -- there are many POV articles on each Wikipedia due to systemic biases that people do not realise are present.
If Romanian Wikipedians tried to make their articles conform to the same POV standard as the English Wikipedia does, this would not be an issue.
Mark
On 29/06/06, Lorenzarius lorenzarius@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know any "Moldovan", but if the difference
between "Moldovan"
and Romanian is merely a difference in the
alphabet used, we don't
even need an external script for the conversions:
because MediaWiki
already supports such conversions (this function
is introduced in
version 1.4). This function is currently being
used on the Chinese (to
convert between traditional/simplified Chinese)
and Serbian (to
convert between Cyrillic/Latin alphabet)
Wikipedia. In fact the
situation on zh: is much more complicated than
merely a difference in
alphabet, and I can assure you that the initial
discussion on zh:
(e.g. whether to split or not; whether a technical
solution is
adequate enough) is no less painful than the
current one I see here.
But as a native Chinese speaker, I think our use
of a technical
solution to overcome a not-so-technical problem
works out pretty well
so far and that we did indeed make a correct
decision to not to split.
For more info: http://zh.wikipedia.org/
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Transwiki:Wikimania05/Paper-ZZ1
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Automatic_conversion_between_simplified_and_t...
http://sr.wikipedia.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Wikipedia -- Larry Lo http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lorenzarius Tel: +852 95825791 _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org
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On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 13:45 -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:
Another difference is Greater Romania POV.
Articles on ro.wp tend to be written slightly slanted towards a Romanian view.
I could believe this, but can you present some examples? (For independent verification).
Fran
I already did, see my e-mail.
Mark
On 29/06/06, Francis Tyers spectre@ivixor.net wrote:
On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 13:45 -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:
Another difference is Greater Romania POV.
Articles on ro.wp tend to be written slightly slanted towards a Romanian view.
I could believe this, but can you present some examples? (For independent verification).
Fran
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So, to summarize your last 3 messages, we agree on the fact that nobody on the whole wikipedia is both capable and willing to edit on mo.wikipedia otherwise than by copying articles from ro.wikipedia.
Two new original articles from yesterday. Short, but still nice.
To do this, you don't need a Moldovan wikipedia to do it. You need the script of Bogdan Giusca (:en:User:Bogdangiusca), which will automatically convert to cyrillic (and with far less errors than you) any article on the Romanian wikipedia. This script is already functional at
http://mcworld.org/McChirilic/?pagina=Limba_moldoveneasc%C4%83To make it work on the article of your choice, replace the text "Limba_moldoveneasc%C4%83" with the page name of your choice.
Yes, and it comes out with horrible misspellings all over the place.
People have said that improvements can be made, but when I sent improvements to Bogdan, he ignored them entirely.
Mark
It depends.
If you mean people who speak the national language of Moldova and were educated in Cyrillic, then yes, I'm pretty sure [[User:Oleg Alexandrov]] qualifies there.
If you mean people who call their language "Moldovan" and insist that it's a different language from Romanian, no, I don't think there is anyone.
Mark
On 28/06/06, mboverload mboverload@gmail.com wrote:
QUESTION: I don't care if they're native, are there any "near native" speakers of "MOLDOVAN" on en.wikipedia.org?
mboverload
On 6/28/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
And you're accusing me of spreading FUD? Psht.
Mark
On 28/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello everybody,
After sending my point of view here, I presumed someone was going to
investigate the matter, by asking questions and LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THE FACTS. To my surprise, this did not happen (maybe every high-rank admin is in vacations?).
As I noticed in my initial post of June 24th, the this lack of decision
can only lead to the situation coarsing, and the various parts stacking all sorts of oppinions. This is true for the Romanians and for the few Romanian-speaking Moldovans that support the deletion of this wikipedia. This is also true for Mark Williamson (User:Node_ue) and for the Russians that support him. There is no nativ Moldovan speaker supporting mo.wikipedia.
Now, to come back to the facts. I suggest reading my post of June 24th,
which is not, as Mark says, too high-level. It mainly notices three facts, that can easily be checked (despite all the hands-waving of Mark):
THERE IS NO NATIVE MOLDOVAN SPEAKER HERE ON WIKIPEDIA.
99% of the articles of mo.wikipedia have been copied from
ro.wikipedia with just the script changed from Latin to Cyrillic, by Mark (Usedr:Node_ue).
- Mark assumes for himself a level mo-2, meaning that he is not able
to write text in Moldovan.
All the other users on mo.wikipedia are either against Mark (including
some trolls), or create 1-line incorrect articles, or simply move around interwiki links to give the impression something happens.
This means that there is NO COMMUNITY, and that mo.wikipedia is nothing
more than a political statement without any other content. Is this the vocation of wikipedia?
MY SUGGESTION: LOOK AT THE FACTS DIRECTLY on mo.wikipedia. Hands waiving
and sending message after message with FUD is the strong point of Mark. But he cannot alter edit histories, nor user lists.
Please, look at the facts yourself.
Yours, [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
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Sounds like an utter mess. Thanks so much for taking the time to explain it to me, even if I'm still not sure why it's such a big issue =O
On 6/27/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Probably not. Dpotop's original message assumed that everyone was already familiar with the situation.
I will give a brief summary, trying to be unbiased -- i.e., I will include the points of view of some of my opponents.
Some background --
According to some people, Moldovan is a synonym for Romanian. According to some people, the Cyrillic alphabet was imposed on the Moldovan ASSR by Stalin. According to others, the Cyrillic alphabet was in continuous use in the MASSR thruought its history with an exception of 15 years in the interwar period.
There are additional (and mostly irrelvant) arguments about whether or not Moldovan was created as a separate language from Romanian by Stalin, or whether it developed naturally.
That aside, the main issue here seems to be use of the Cyrillic script.
According to some people, nobody uses the Cyrillic script to write this language anymore. According to other people, all people who use the script are forced to against their will. According to yet others, there are people who use the script by choice.
According to all parties involved, "Moldovan" using the Cyrillic script is one of 3 official languages of Transnistria. What is disputed, however, is the status of Transnistria. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria for details.
Some people have gone so far as to say a Wikipedia using Cyrillic script is an insult "to all Romanians who died" at the hands of Stalin for the Latin alphabet, although that is a bit of a stretch.
Another contentious issue is the quality of the Wikipedia. There have been allegations of poor grammar, misspellings, etc., but the people who claim they exist don't bother to point them out or fix them.
You may judge the quality of the articles yourself, see http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Randompage
There are other issues, for example the villification of yours truly by the other side as "an evil stalinistic KGB Jewish-American Russian agent who does not know Romanian". Perhaps not in the same sentence, but I have been called all of the above at some point or another in some language.
Ironically, the "does not know Romanian" part is usually accused in Romanian, and I understand it. (To be fair, Danutz would beg to differ -- he claims to have "figured out" how I supposedly use a machine translator to read and write)
Mark
On 27/06/06, mboverload mboverload@gmail.com wrote:
Am I the only one here that is completely an utterly confused?
mboverload_confused
On 6/27/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Now, here's some proof of deception.
Jacky/Dpotop claims here that the reasoning behind the proposal to close the Moldovan Wikipedia is that there are no native contributors (which is no longer true exactly).
As this message from an ally of his, Dapiks/Constanteanu shows, this is not the case; rather it is politically motivated:
"Buna,
A inceput un vot pentru stergerea "Wikipediei Moldovenesti", o creatie a unui Evreu-American, cu origini suspecte in Basarabia si care nu vorbeste limba wikipediei la care pretinde a fi sysop. Il cheama Node ue si pentru a crea impresia ca lumea doreste aceasta wikipedie, a apelat la toti utilizatorii rusi care au venit sa voteze de partea lui desi nu cunosc bine subiectul si li s-a spus ca voteaza pentru supravietuirea alfabetului chirilic. Asa a ajuns ca votul sa fie 31 pentru stergerea Mo wiki, si 42 impotriva stergerii - deci in alte cuvinte pentru pastrarea wikipediei in limba "moldoveneasca". Vino si voteaza aici[1] , ca sa sergem acesta creatura cu miros bolshevic, care insulta toti romanii de pe ambele maluri ale Prutului. Node ue le-a spus rusilor sa traduca mesajul lui in limba rusa si sa-l transmita mai departe. Trimite si tu mesajul acesta la toti utilizatorii romani-unionisti sau romani-moldoveni unionisti pe care-i cunosti pe en.wiki sau ro.wiki. Dapiks 23:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)"
Hopefully some of you can guess what this means, but I will give you a summary of what he said.
He says that a vote has begun for the deletion of the "Moldovan Wikipedia" (in quotes), notes that it is the "creation of a Jewish-American with possible origins in Bessarabia" (Bessarabia is a historical term here used in a derogatory context to refer to the modern-day Republic of Moldova). He goes on to say that the Jewish-American's name is "Node ue", and that this person has "called all Russian users to vote on his side even though they do not know the subject well". He then notes the current number of votes in a belittling manner. He goes on to urge people to come and vote to delete "this ugly Bolshevik creation which insults all Romanians on both sides of the Pruth".
The particularly political part is at the end when he says "Send this message also to all Romanian or Romano-Moldovan unionist users which you know on en.wiki or mo.wiki."
An urge to spread a message to only people of a certain political background seems unacceptable. Yes, I did post at the village pump of the Russian Wikipedia and request a message to be translated into Russian (according to some Romanians, my message was anti-Romanian and deceptive, however when Dpotop posted a counter-argument, most Russians continued to maintain previous opinions). However, I encouraged EVERYONE to vote, which ultimately included one Russian user who voted for the closing of mo.wikipedia.
Mark
On 24/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello everybody,
Remember, you decided to leave the Moldovan wikipedia freezed, but
not
completely deleted. Now, its unique contributor [[:en:User:Node_ue]],
is
back (probably on school holiday), with his anti-Romanian edits. I
cite from
[[:mo:Wikipedia_talk:Administrator]]:
<i> Please don't write in Romanian here, write Moldovan. Every time
you
write Romanian on the Moldovan wikipedia, god kills a kitten. </i>
No to mention that he initiated a vote to become again sysop, then
tried
to falsify the results (because they were not favourable). The current version of the page [[:mo:Wikipedia:Administrator]] is that rigged by Node_ue, but take a look at the history on the vote page [
http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator&oldid=... ],
which shows the true result of the vote according to the original
rules set
by Node_ue.
After this, he managed to invite the entire Russian wikipedia to
take
position on a language they know nothing about here: [[:meta:Proposals
for
closing projects]]. Take a look at his post here [[:ru:Википедия:Форум/Новости#Moldovan]], and notice the blatant lie concerning the cyrillic script (whereas the problem is in fact the
absence
of Moldovan editors).
In the meantime, Node_ue is copying articles from ro.wiki to mo.wikiand
pretends they are in a different language.
It must be noted that he is the only one on the entire wikipedia
(all
wikipedias took together) to pretend speaking a "Moldovan language" different from the Romanian one. Just take a look at
[[:en:Category:User
mo]], [[:mo:Category:User mo]], [[:ro:Category:User mo]], [[:ru:Category:User mo]].
Moreover he himself places himself at level mo-2. I can assure you
this
guy isn't able to write correct text in Moldovan. Any native Moldovan
can
tell you the same (in fact, this is why he keeps copying articles
from
ro.wiki).
While no native Moldovan editor exists, the Moldovan wikipedia will
continue to be a political statement that exacerbates nationalisms
from
Romania, Russia, and Moldova itself, and a playground for clever and
stupid
trolls.
It should be closed until a native Moldovan editor requires its
re-opening and assumes admin rights.
This argument has already been put forward here [[:meta:Proposals
for
closing projects#What decision makers need to know]].
Yours sincerely, [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
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On 6/28/06, mboverload <mboverload@gmail.com > wrote:
Sounds like an utter mess. Thanks so much for taking the time to
explain it
to me, even if I'm still not sure why it's such a big issue =O
The big issue comes mainly from the desinformation that mo.wikipediacreates.
The content that is currently on mo.wikipedia is written in a language that is not used any more in the Republic of Moldova. It could be argued that Moldovan is used by a minority in the territory of Moldova (in private and personal matters), and by a part of population (mainly Moldovan schools) in Transnistria. Please note that Cyrillic Moldovan is not used on a large scale (that is, generally speaking, you won't encounter Moldovan Cyrillic anywhere in Moldova). At least for Moldova, I can assure you, as I am a native Moldovan. As far as Transnistria is concerned, I really doubt it. Even the official presidential website http://www.president-pmr.org/doesn't contain any Cyrillic Moldovan content.
The big issue: when people visit mo.wikipedia.org and see the Cyrillic content, they believe that this is the language currently used in Moldova. One thing that is false, as it is the content of ro.wikipedia.org that one may see in Moldova (anywhere: advertisment, television, newspapers, books, laws, documents, anywhere). While Wikipedia is supposed to provide readers with correct information. For Moldovans and Romanians alike such a situation is frustrating.
By all this I am trying to explain that current Cyrillic content has nothing to do on mo.wikipedia. If it has any right to exist (low quality content, no native contributors, no native people's support of its existance [at least not here, not on this mailing-list]), it should be somewhere on a mo-cyr.wikipedia.
I'll have you know that Moldovan is my native language. It is the first
language I
heard, and I heard no other language until the age of 3.
Please see: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22first+language+attrition%22
Mark
What concerns the native speakers present on Wikipedia, I personally do not qualify Mark Williamson's affirmation of him being a native speaker of Moldovan. The Moldovan Wikipedia issue was already discussed at least three times in the recent past: in December 2005http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2005-December/, in March 2006 http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-March/and currently in June 2006 http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-June/.
The reason for my opinion is that before 28 June 2006http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-June/044584.html, not one time (at least not to my knowledge and not on the Wikipedia-I mailing list ; please correct me if I am wrong) did Mark ackowledge himself as being a native Moldovan speaker. Although he had plenty of occasions, for examplehttp://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-March/043992.html , to use this argument. On Jacky PB's simple assertion on 12 March 2006http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-March/043910.html: "no Moldovan speaker ever asked for a Moldovan Wikipedia", Mark's response is "Dpotop is spreading FUD". And, as far as I know, Moldovan Wikipedia was created on Mark Williamson's demand.
I am wondering if shouldn't the decision on closing down the Moldovan Wikipediahttp://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-March/043897.htmlbe put in action as soon as possible, to avoid all these useless discussions (if my calculations are correct, the next re-openning of this discussion is scheduled on September 2006http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-September/). The closing should have been carried out by Brion somewhere in March.
If there are users who want to get out of the state of confusion regarding this issue, they could look here for an acceptably well put status quohttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects#What_decision_makers_need_to_knowand here for some background http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Rezultat_alegeri informationhttp://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-March/043799.html(one on the Moldovan Wikipedia, the other on the mailing list; both contain the results of a vote that took place several months ago).
I agree with that statement, why should the Moldovan Wikipedia only use Cyrillic, that would imply that Moldovan is normally written in that alphabet, which is actually false as the vast majority of Moldovan speakers (i.e. speakers of Romanian in Moldvoa) use the latin script. But having a latin version of Moldovan would also be stupid as formal Moldovan and Romanian are identical. A mo-cyr or ro-cyr version could be created for those who want to read the Romanian encclopedia in Cyrillic (through a transliteration tool), but I suggest not implementing that until someone actually requests a Cyrillic Moldovan encyclopedia.
Liviu Andronic landronimirc@gmail.com wrote:By all this I am trying to explain that current Cyrillic content has nothing to do on mo.wikipedia. If it has any right to exist (low quality content, no native contributors, no native people's support of its existance [at least not here, not on this mailing-list]), it should be somewhere on a mo-cyr.wikipedia.
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I think this sound like the best solution. With a link in cyrilic on ro: and mo redirecting to ro:
mvh. Lars J. Alvik
Den 29. jun. 2006 kl. 17.28 skrev Igor Coropceanu:
I agree with that statement, why should the Moldovan Wikipedia only use Cyrillic, that would imply that Moldovan is normally written in that alphabet, which is actually false as the vast majority of Moldovan speakers (i.e. speakers of Romanian in Moldvoa) use the latin script. But having a latin version of Moldovan would also be stupid as formal Moldovan and Romanian are identical. A mo-cyr or ro-cyr version could be created for those who want to read the Romanian encclopedia in Cyrillic (through a transliteration tool), but I suggest not implementing that until someone actually requests a Cyrillic Moldovan encyclopedia.
Liviu Andronic landronimirc@gmail.com wrote:By all this I am trying to explain that current Cyrillic content has nothing to do on mo.wikipedia. If it has any right to exist (low quality content, no native contributors, no native people's support of its existance [at least not here, not on this mailing-list]), it should be somewhere on a mo-cyr.wikipedia.
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Liviu Andronic wrote:
... The big issue comes mainly from the desinformation that mo.wikipediacreates.
The content that is currently on mo.wikipedia is written in a language that is not used any more in the Republic of Moldova. It could be argued that Moldovan is used by a minority in the territory of Moldova (in private and personal matters), and by a part of population (mainly Moldovan schools) in Transnistria. Please note that Cyrillic Moldovan is not used on a large scale (that is, generally speaking, you won't encounter Moldovan Cyrillic anywhere in Moldova). At least for Moldova, I can assure you, as I am a native Moldovan. As far as Transnistria is concerned, I really doubt it. Even the official presidential website http://www.president-pmr.org/doesn't contain any Cyrillic Moldovan content. ...
Hoi, Either the information is correct, and given that it is said to be information from the Romanian language Wikipedia it should be both correct and NPOV. If it is not correct or NPOV, /both/ the Romanian and the Moldovian language Wikipedia are to be considered problematic. All the rest is very much politics, posturing and intransigence.
I am sure that this continued existence is best ignored. Consider you are either a party to this dispute or you could not care less. When the argument is that the mo wikipedia is occupied by trolls, remember they thrive by getting attention.
Thanks, GerardM
Hello Gerard,
I don't really understand what you are implying.
But I can repeat why we ask for the deletion of mo.wikipedia (all of these are already proven in previous messages):
1. There is no community. Nobody on wikipedia is both interested in having it and able to contribute.
2. All content is copied from ro.wikipedia and transliterated. There are better, already tested ways of changing script, if someone wants it.
3. In the current status, mo.wikipedia is in fact a heaven for trolls of all sorts.
Of course, deletion needs not be permanent. As soon as the condition 1 becomes false (as soon as a community forms), the moldovan wikipedia can be re-created.
Yours, Jacky
--- Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Liviu Andronic wrote:
... The big issue comes mainly from the
desinformation that mo.wikipediacreates.
The content that is currently on mo.wikipedia is
written in a language that
is not used any more in the Republic of Moldova.
It could be argued that
Moldovan is used by a minority in the territory of
Moldova (in private and
personal matters), and by a part of population
(mainly Moldovan schools) in
Transnistria. Please note that Cyrillic Moldovan
is not used on a large
scale (that is, generally speaking, you won't
encounter Moldovan Cyrillic
anywhere in Moldova). At least for Moldova, I can
assure you, as I am a
native Moldovan. As far as Transnistria is
concerned, I really doubt it.
Even the official presidential website http://www.president-pmr.org/doesn't contain any Cyrillic Moldovan content. ...
Hoi, Either the information is correct, and given that it is said to be information from the Romanian language Wikipedia it should be both correct and NPOV. If it is not correct or NPOV, /both/ the Romanian and the Moldovian language Wikipedia are to be considered problematic. All the rest is very much politics, posturing and intransigence.
I am sure that this continued existence is best ignored. Consider you are either a party to this dispute or you could not care less. When the argument is that the mo wikipedia is occupied by trolls, remember they thrive by getting attention.
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I highly doubt it. Until a few weeks ago, your protest was that it was in Cyrillic. You only adopted the idea of no native speakers when it was suggested by Fran.
Mark
On 29/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello Gerard,
I don't really understand what you are implying.
But I can repeat why we ask for the deletion of mo.wikipedia (all of these are already proven in previous messages):
- There is no community. Nobody on wikipedia is both
interested in having it and able to contribute.
- All content is copied from ro.wikipedia and
transliterated. There are better, already tested ways of changing script, if someone wants it.
- In the current status, mo.wikipedia is in fact a
heaven for trolls of all sorts.
Of course, deletion needs not be permanent. As soon as the condition 1 becomes false (as soon as a community forms), the moldovan wikipedia can be re-created.
Yours, Jacky
--- Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Liviu Andronic wrote:
... The big issue comes mainly from the
desinformation that mo.wikipediacreates.
The content that is currently on mo.wikipedia is
written in a language that
is not used any more in the Republic of Moldova.
It could be argued that
Moldovan is used by a minority in the territory of
Moldova (in private and
personal matters), and by a part of population
(mainly Moldovan schools) in
Transnistria. Please note that Cyrillic Moldovan
is not used on a large
scale (that is, generally speaking, you won't
encounter Moldovan Cyrillic
anywhere in Moldova). At least for Moldova, I can
assure you, as I am a
native Moldovan. As far as Transnistria is
concerned, I really doubt it.
Even the official presidential website http://www.president-pmr.org/doesn't contain any Cyrillic Moldovan content. ...
Hoi, Either the information is correct, and given that it is said to be information from the Romanian language Wikipedia it should be both correct and NPOV. If it is not correct or NPOV, /both/ the Romanian and the Moldovian language Wikipedia are to be considered problematic. All the rest is very much politics, posturing and intransigence.
I am sure that this continued existence is best ignored. Consider you are either a party to this dispute or you could not care less. When the argument is that the mo wikipedia is occupied by trolls, remember they thrive by getting attention.
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If Wikipedias with no native contributors are so evil, why don't you request locking of the over 100 Wikipedias for which this is the case?
You might say that none of them have any people writing, but that is not true. Wikipedias such as the Lingala Wikipedia (ln.wp) are filled with content created by non-native speakers, and you aren't complaining about them. Why is that? Why don't you go on a crusade to close the Lingala Wikipedia? Or the Maori Wikipedia?
Mark
On 29/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello Gerard,
I don't really understand what you are implying.
But I can repeat why we ask for the deletion of mo.wikipedia (all of these are already proven in previous messages):
- There is no community. Nobody on wikipedia is both
interested in having it and able to contribute.
- All content is copied from ro.wikipedia and
transliterated. There are better, already tested ways of changing script, if someone wants it.
- In the current status, mo.wikipedia is in fact a
heaven for trolls of all sorts.
Of course, deletion needs not be permanent. As soon as the condition 1 becomes false (as soon as a community forms), the moldovan wikipedia can be re-created.
Yours, Jacky
--- Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Liviu Andronic wrote:
... The big issue comes mainly from the
desinformation that mo.wikipediacreates.
The content that is currently on mo.wikipedia is
written in a language that
is not used any more in the Republic of Moldova.
It could be argued that
Moldovan is used by a minority in the territory of
Moldova (in private and
personal matters), and by a part of population
(mainly Moldovan schools) in
Transnistria. Please note that Cyrillic Moldovan
is not used on a large
scale (that is, generally speaking, you won't
encounter Moldovan Cyrillic
anywhere in Moldova). At least for Moldova, I can
assure you, as I am a
native Moldovan. As far as Transnistria is
concerned, I really doubt it.
Even the official presidential website http://www.president-pmr.org/doesn't contain any Cyrillic Moldovan content. ...
Hoi, Either the information is correct, and given that it is said to be information from the Romanian language Wikipedia it should be both correct and NPOV. If it is not correct or NPOV, /both/ the Romanian and the Moldovian language Wikipedia are to be considered problematic. All the rest is very much politics, posturing and intransigence.
I am sure that this continued existence is best ignored. Consider you are either a party to this dispute or you could not care less. When the argument is that the mo wikipedia is occupied by trolls, remember they thrive by getting attention.
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Nuance: - You say it's a wikipedia with no native contributor. - But we proved here that there is NO CONTRIBUTOR AT ALL. Your "contributions" are stolen from ro.wikipedia.
I know of the Wikipedia licencing policy, but this still is utterly unethical: One person copying articles from one wikipedia to another and then claiming they are different just because the script was changed.
Actually, this is what infuriates me and makes me fight here. This is why I, a Romanian, am involved. The "Moldovan" identity is the problem of the Moldovan people. I have already said that once a native Moldovan speaker wants a Moldovan wikipedia, I'll help him create it.
But you are not Moldovan. You are not able to write Moldovan. You pretend helping some people that did not ask for your help. No native Moldovan expressed an interest in your wikipedia.
In fact, all people from Moldova, here on Wikipedia, say they speak Romanian. You have Oleg Alexandrov, which used to help you, but then dropped you when he saw you profess extreme oppinions. You have Dmitriid, which marks ro-2 in his Babel box, not mo-2, and would agree for an automatic translation tool from Romanian, a tool that exists (as he said two days ago).
And these are the ones that you claim to have (or have had) on your side. Because there are Moldovans, like Pavel, that are utterly mad at you for supporting Stalinist points of view.
You can always come with arguments of the sort: - there is an ISO code - maybe, in the future, there will be some community - the bad Romanians are against it
BUT: RIGHT NOW, THERE IS NO COMMUNITY, no interest in your work, aside from the interest of your opponents (the people you plagiarize), and that of some innocent bystanders on this list and elsewhere, that are forced into listening all this because you won't accept that you serve nobody's interest.
Dpotop
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote: If Wikipedias with no native contributors are so evil, why don't you request locking of the over 100 Wikipedias for which this is the case?
You might say that none of them have any people writing, but that is not true. Wikipedias such as the Lingala Wikipedia (ln.wp) are filled with content created by non-native speakers, and you aren't complaining about them. Why is that? Why don't you go on a crusade to close the Lingala Wikipedia? Or the Maori Wikipedia?
Mark
On 29/06/06, Jacky PB wrote:
Hello Gerard,
I don't really understand what you are implying.
But I can repeat why we ask for the deletion of mo.wikipedia (all of these are already proven in previous messages):
- There is no community. Nobody on wikipedia is both
interested in having it and able to contribute.
- All content is copied from ro.wikipedia and
transliterated. There are better, already tested ways of changing script, if someone wants it.
- In the current status, mo.wikipedia is in fact a
heaven for trolls of all sorts.
Of course, deletion needs not be permanent. As soon as the condition 1 becomes false (as soon as a community forms), the moldovan wikipedia can be re-created.
Yours, Jacky
--- Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Liviu Andronic wrote:
... The big issue comes mainly from the
desinformation that mo.wikipediacreates.
The content that is currently on mo.wikipedia is
written in a language that
is not used any more in the Republic of Moldova.
It could be argued that
Moldovan is used by a minority in the territory of
Moldova (in private and
personal matters), and by a part of population
(mainly Moldovan schools) in
Transnistria. Please note that Cyrillic Moldovan
is not used on a large
scale (that is, generally speaking, you won't
encounter Moldovan Cyrillic
anywhere in Moldova). At least for Moldova, I can
assure you, as I am a
native Moldovan. As far as Transnistria is
concerned, I really doubt it.
Even the official presidential website doesn't contain any Cyrillic Moldovan content. ...
Hoi, Either the information is correct, and given that it is said to be information from the Romanian language Wikipedia it should be both correct and NPOV. If it is not correct or NPOV, /both/ the Romanian and the Moldovian language Wikipedia are to be considered problematic. All the rest is very much politics, posturing and intransigence.
I am sure that this continued existence is best ignored. Consider you are either a party to this dispute or you could not care less. When the argument is that the mo wikipedia is occupied by trolls, remember they thrive by getting attention.
Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org
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Your (well, at least, it sounds like what you would say) harassment of me on my livejournal nonwithstanding (and you might wish to check it, I have replied)...
You seem to have a very wrong concept of ownership of articles.
Neither you, nor the country of Romania, nor the group of all Romanians as a whole, has any ownership over the Romanian Wikipedia or any articles therein.
Would it be fair to say that all of the ro.wp articles that are translated directly from English with no addition of facts are similarly "stolen"?
No, it is Wikipedia, and we frequently copy from one another.
This is not "plagiarism".
I know of the Wikipedia licencing policy, but this still is utterly unethical: One person copying articles from one wikipedia to another and then claiming they are different just because the script was changed.
They *are* different -- do they look the same to you? No. Different letters. They may or may not be in the same language ultimately, depending on your POV, but they are definitely different. They are stored with different byte articles.
And no copying occurred. It is called transliterating.
Actually, this is what infuriates me and makes me fight here. This is why I, a Romanian, am involved. The "Moldovan" identity is the problem of the Moldovan people. I have already said that once a native Moldovan speaker wants a Moldovan wikipedia, I'll help him create it.
You are infuriated because someone is using your articles? Well, I am infuriated that you are using text I have written! Surely, somewhere in ro.wp is a direct translation of some content I wrote in English. Oh no!
But you are not Moldovan. You are not able to write Moldovan. You pretend helping some people that did not ask for your help. No native Moldovan expressed an interest in your wikipedia.
I am Moldovan. It is your _opinion_ that I am "not able to write Moldovan", especially given that you attach no adverb. "Native Moldovans" (assuming you mean Moldovans living in Moldova) have expressed an interest, although in very limited numbers.
In fact, all people from Moldova, here on Wikipedia, say they speak Romanian. You have Oleg Alexandrov, which used to help you, but then dropped you when he saw you profess extreme oppinions.
He never "dropped me".
You have Dmitriid, which marks ro-2 in his Babel box, not mo-2, and would agree for an automatic translation tool from Romanian, a tool that exists (as he said two days ago).
And I said that I agree to it to, as long as this tool will be implemented on ro.wiki just as it is on sr.wiki and zh.wiki, and as long as IMPROVEMENTS ARE ACCEPTED, which Bogdan did not allow so far -- I gave a list of improvements, and he ignored them entirely. Spelling still sucks.
And these are the ones that you claim to have (or have had) on your side. Because there are Moldovans, like Pavel, that are utterly mad at you for supporting Stalinist points of view.
Psh. They're certainly not the only ones.
BUT: RIGHT NOW, THERE IS NO COMMUNITY, no interest in your work, aside from the interest of your opponents (the people you plagiarize), and that of some innocent bystanders on this list and elsewhere, that are forced into listening all this because you won't accept that you serve nobody's interest.
Oh, please. There is too a community. You are infuriated for no good reason. Take a step back, and take a good look at the situation. You have worked yourself up into a tizzy over nothing. I'm not sure why this is worth the effort to you -- there's a good chance you will lose the fight, and anyhow, no matter what, you are being destructive.
Mark
But you are not Moldovan. You are not able to write Moldovan. You pretend helping some people that did not ask for your help. No native Moldovan expressed an interest in your wikipedia.
I am Moldovan. It is your _opinion_ that I am "not able to write Moldovan", especially given that you attach no adverb. "Native Moldovans" (assuming you mean Moldovans living in Moldova) have expressed an interest, although in very limited numbers. The "limited number" is currently 0. :)
And anyone can check this by looking at the number of users registered (with Babel) as speakers of Moldovan (code mo). On the whole wikipedia, there is a single "mo" user, which is Mark, a.k.a. User:Node_ue. And he's level mo-2, meaning that he's making basic grammar and spelling errors.
:en:Dpotop
--------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
What I'm actually interested in is the number of hits on that wikipedia.
mboverload
On 6/30/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
But you are not Moldovan. You are not able to write Moldovan. You pretend helping some people that did not ask for your help. No native Moldovan expressed an interest in your wikipedia.
I am Moldovan. It is your _opinion_ that I am "not able to write Moldovan", especially given that you attach no adverb. "Native Moldovans" (assuming you mean Moldovans living in Moldova) have expressed an interest, although in very limited numbers. The "limited number" is currently 0. :)
And anyone can check this by looking at the number of users registered (with Babel) as speakers of Moldovan (code mo). On the whole wikipedia, there is a single "mo" user, which is Mark, a.k.a. User:Node_ue. And he's level mo-2, meaning that he's making basic grammar and spelling errors.
:en:Dpotop
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Hm, interesting, so you want another criterion to measure the "genuine interest" in mo.wikipedia.
Then, I suggest some rules for this measurement:
1. Take into account only hits to actual articles (main namespace) having more than 5 lines of text. Otherwise said, the articles copied from the Romanian wikipedia.
2. Make the measurement on a period when there was no full-scale revert war (for instance, before the current one started).
3. Do not count IPs of Romanian wikipedia users, nor IPs of Russian wikipedia users. These users (like me) are just inspecting mo.wikipedia to spot the current status of the revert war (it's full scale and never stops). One week ago, for instance, Mark (User:Node_ue) tried to organize, and then rig some elections to get back his sysop status (he has
been desysopped some time ago for bad behavior).
If you think you can do this, then ask yourself what this measures. Remember: you cannot assume that the traffic has the same structure here as in en.wikipedia.
Yours, Dpotop
--- mboverload mboverload@gmail.com wrote:
What I'm actually interested in is the number of hits on that wikipedia.
mboverload
On 6/30/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
But you are not Moldovan. You are not able to
write Moldovan.
You pretend helping some people that did not ask
for your help.
No native Moldovan expressed an interest in your
wikipedia.
I am Moldovan. It is your _opinion_ that I am "not
able to write
Moldovan", especially given that you attach no
adverb. "Native
Moldovans" (assuming you mean Moldovans living in
Moldova) have
expressed an interest, although in very limited
numbers.
The "limited number" is currently 0. :)
And anyone can check this by looking at the number
of users registered
(with Babel) as speakers of Moldovan (code mo). On
the whole wikipedia,
there is a single "mo" user, which is Mark, a.k.a.
User:Node_ue. And he's
level mo-2, meaning that he's making basic grammar
and spelling errors.
:en:Dpotop
Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new
Yahoo! Mail Beta.
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Rig? No. I just deleted votes that were invalid, like Pavel did.
And the limited number is not currently 0. You have not been following this discussion for very long. Please take a look at the archives. You have accused me of arguing on topics I am not familiar with, now you are being a hypocrite.
Mark
On 30/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Hm, interesting, so you want another criterion to measure the "genuine interest" in mo.wikipedia.
Then, I suggest some rules for this measurement:
Take into account only hits to actual articles (main namespace) having more than 5 lines of text. Otherwise said, the articles copied from the Romanian wikipedia.
Make the measurement on a period when there was no full-scale revert war (for instance, before the current one started).
Do not count IPs of Romanian wikipedia users, nor IPs of Russian wikipedia users. These users (like me) are just inspecting mo.wikipedia to spot the current status of the revert war (it's full scale and never stops). One week ago, for instance, Mark (User:Node_ue) tried to organize, and then rig some elections to get back his sysop status (he has
been desysopped some time ago for bad behavior).
If you think you can do this, then ask yourself what this measures. Remember: you cannot assume that the traffic has the same structure here as in en.wikipedia.
Yours, Dpotop
--- mboverload mboverload@gmail.com wrote:
What I'm actually interested in is the number of hits on that wikipedia.
mboverload
On 6/30/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
But you are not Moldovan. You are not able to
write Moldovan.
You pretend helping some people that did not ask
for your help.
No native Moldovan expressed an interest in your
wikipedia.
I am Moldovan. It is your _opinion_ that I am "not
able to write
Moldovan", especially given that you attach no
adverb. "Native
Moldovans" (assuming you mean Moldovans living in
Moldova) have
expressed an interest, although in very limited
numbers.
The "limited number" is currently 0. :)
And anyone can check this by looking at the number
of users registered
(with Babel) as speakers of Moldovan (code mo). On
the whole wikipedia,
there is a single "mo" user, which is Mark, a.k.a.
User:Node_ue. And he's
level mo-2, meaning that he's making basic grammar
and spelling errors.
:en:Dpotop
Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new
Yahoo! Mail Beta.
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Rig? No. I just deleted votes that were invalid, like Pavel did.
Really? Your rules were that every account made before the vote is valid. Why did you delete my vote? BTW, your attempt to justify this by changing the rules of the vote *after* the vote ended was pitiful. This can be checked, and I provided the link in my initial post:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-June/044508.html
And the limited number is not currently 0. You have not been following this discussion for very long. Please take a look at the archives. You have accused me of arguing on topics I am not familiar with, now you are being a hypocrite.
Actually, I'm following this *very* closely. Could you, please, tell me who these editors are? And don't start with "I have said it before". This is your favourite excuse. Just list some user names.
:en:Dpotop
Mark
On 30/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Hm, interesting, so you want another criterion to measure the "genuine interest" in mo.wikipedia.
Then, I suggest some rules for this measurement:
- Take into account only hits to actual articles (main namespace) having more than 5 lines of
text.
Otherwise said, the articles copied from the Romanian wikipedia.
- Make the measurement on a period when there was no full-scale revert war (for instance, before
the
current one started).
- Do not count IPs of Romanian wikipedia users,
nor
IPs of Russian wikipedia users. These users
(like
me) are just inspecting mo.wikipedia to spot the current status of the revert war (it's full scale and never stops). One week ago, for
instance,
Mark (User:Node_ue) tried to organize, and then
rig
some elections to get back his sysop status (he
has
been desysopped some time ago for bad
behavior).
If you think you can do this, then ask yourself
what
this measures. Remember: you cannot assume that
the
traffic has the same structure here as in en.wikipedia.
Yours, Dpotop
--- mboverload mboverload@gmail.com wrote:
What I'm actually interested in is the number of hits on that wikipedia.
mboverload
On 6/30/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
But you are not Moldovan. You are not able
to
write Moldovan.
You pretend helping some people that did not
ask
for your help.
No native Moldovan expressed an interest in
your
wikipedia.
I am Moldovan. It is your _opinion_ that I am
"not
able to write
Moldovan", especially given that you attach no
adverb. "Native
Moldovans" (assuming you mean Moldovans living
in
Moldova) have
expressed an interest, although in very
limited
numbers.
The "limited number" is currently 0. :)
And anyone can check this by looking at the
number
of users registered
(with Babel) as speakers of Moldovan (code
mo). On
the whole wikipedia,
there is a single "mo" user, which is Mark,
a.k.a.
User:Node_ue. And he's
level mo-2, meaning that he's making basic
grammar
and spelling errors.
:en:Dpotop
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Yahoo! Mail Beta.
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Rig? No. I just deleted votes that were invalid, like Pavel did.
Really? Your rules were that every account made before the vote is valid. Why did you delete my vote? BTW, your attempt to justify this by changing the rules of the vote *after* the vote ended was pitiful. This can be checked, and I provided the link in my initial post:
The rules also stated that the vote ended after one day. This rule was changed post ipso facto by Bonaparte. http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator&diff=1...
You may protest that this is a ridiculous rule. But then you should challenge the results on those grounds, not on the grounds that I "fixed an election".
Actually, I'm following this *very* closely. Could you, please, tell me who these editors are? And don't start with "I have said it before". This is your favourite excuse. Just list some user names.
"Have not been... for very long" implies that you started doing this very recently, and you didn't properly check archives. Normally, I would not tell you and make you check archives but I suppose that wouldn't be constructive here, so...
1) Vertaler -- made a few edits; e-mail correspondence with him indicated that while he was interested in the idea of a Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia, he was pessimistic about the possibility of it ever growing 2) Elnoel -- made no edits but did register; his personal website makes clear that a) he is an ethnic Moldovan and b) that he has a strong dislike for Latin script 3) Jeorjika -- while he did not like the idea of Moldovan Wikipedia using Cyrillic, he said he would hold a vote on whether it should be closed or not, and if the vote turned out that it should be kept open, he would help build articles in Cyrillic as well 4) Oleg Alexandrov -- He made some minor corrections to a few articles; his personal opinion that he made clear is that while he does not oppose the idea of a Moldovan Wikipedia in Cyrillic, he feels that in its current state it is too small to be useful.
Mark
:en:Dpotop
Mark
On 30/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Hm, interesting, so you want another criterion to measure the "genuine interest" in mo.wikipedia.
Then, I suggest some rules for this measurement:
- Take into account only hits to actual articles (main namespace) having more than 5 lines of
text.
Otherwise said, the articles copied from the Romanian wikipedia.
- Make the measurement on a period when there was no full-scale revert war (for instance, before
the
current one started).
- Do not count IPs of Romanian wikipedia users,
nor
IPs of Russian wikipedia users. These users
(like
me) are just inspecting mo.wikipedia to spot the current status of the revert war (it's full scale and never stops). One week ago, for
instance,
Mark (User:Node_ue) tried to organize, and then
rig
some elections to get back his sysop status (he
has
been desysopped some time ago for bad
behavior).
If you think you can do this, then ask yourself
what
this measures. Remember: you cannot assume that
the
traffic has the same structure here as in en.wikipedia.
Yours, Dpotop
--- mboverload mboverload@gmail.com wrote:
What I'm actually interested in is the number of hits on that wikipedia.
mboverload
On 6/30/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
But you are not Moldovan. You are not able
to
write Moldovan.
You pretend helping some people that did not
ask
for your help.
No native Moldovan expressed an interest in
your
wikipedia.
I am Moldovan. It is your _opinion_ that I am
"not
able to write
Moldovan", especially given that you attach no
adverb. "Native
Moldovans" (assuming you mean Moldovans living
in
Moldova) have
expressed an interest, although in very
limited
numbers.
The "limited number" is currently 0. :)
And anyone can check this by looking at the
number
of users registered
(with Babel) as speakers of Moldovan (code
mo). On
the whole wikipedia,
there is a single "mo" user, which is Mark,
a.k.a.
User:Node_ue. And he's
level mo-2, meaning that he's making basic
grammar
and spelling errors.
:en:Dpotop
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Yahoo! Mail Beta.
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In sort because they aren't as high profile. I'm sure if you put a petition to close these down, the people who agree with this position would vote for it.
Fran
On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 17:56 -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:
If Wikipedias with no native contributors are so evil, why don't you request locking of the over 100 Wikipedias for which this is the case?
You might say that none of them have any people writing, but that is not true. Wikipedias such as the Lingala Wikipedia (ln.wp) are filled with content created by non-native speakers, and you aren't complaining about them. Why is that? Why don't you go on a crusade to close the Lingala Wikipedia? Or the Maori Wikipedia?
Mark
On 29/06/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello Gerard,
I don't really understand what you are implying.
But I can repeat why we ask for the deletion of mo.wikipedia (all of these are already proven in previous messages):
- There is no community. Nobody on wikipedia is both
interested in having it and able to contribute.
- All content is copied from ro.wikipedia and
transliterated. There are better, already tested ways of changing script, if someone wants it.
- In the current status, mo.wikipedia is in fact a
heaven for trolls of all sorts.
Of course, deletion needs not be permanent. As soon as the condition 1 becomes false (as soon as a community forms), the moldovan wikipedia can be re-created.
Yours, Jacky
--- Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Liviu Andronic wrote:
... The big issue comes mainly from the
desinformation that mo.wikipediacreates.
The content that is currently on mo.wikipedia is
written in a language that
is not used any more in the Republic of Moldova.
It could be argued that
Moldovan is used by a minority in the territory of
Moldova (in private and
personal matters), and by a part of population
(mainly Moldovan schools) in
Transnistria. Please note that Cyrillic Moldovan
is not used on a large
scale (that is, generally speaking, you won't
encounter Moldovan Cyrillic
anywhere in Moldova). At least for Moldova, I can
assure you, as I am a
native Moldovan. As far as Transnistria is
concerned, I really doubt it.
Even the official presidential website http://www.president-pmr.org/doesn't contain any Cyrillic Moldovan content. ...
Hoi, Either the information is correct, and given that it is said to be information from the Romanian language Wikipedia it should be both correct and NPOV. If it is not correct or NPOV, /both/ the Romanian and the Moldovian language Wikipedia are to be considered problematic. All the rest is very much politics, posturing and intransigence.
I am sure that this continued existence is best ignored. Consider you are either a party to this dispute or you could not care less. When the argument is that the mo wikipedia is occupied by trolls, remember they thrive by getting attention.
Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org
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Liviu fails to mention a number of things.
First of all, he can not testify to the current situation in Moldova because he does not live there. He lives in Toulouse, at least last time I heard.
If you went to the (old) main page, it was made _very clear_ that Cyrillic is the minority script. The site notice was, and still is, huge bold letters telling people that if they want to read articles in Latin, go to ro.wp.
scale (that is, generally speaking, you won't encounter Moldovan Cyrillic anywhere in Moldova). At least for Moldova, I can assure you, as I am a native Moldovan. As far as Transnistria is concerned, I really doubt it.
Transnistrian internet is very small, consisting of a handful of websites mostly in Russian. If it grew bigger, maybe you could expect more. However, there are a couple of Transnistrian government websites in Moldovan Cyrillic:
www.kspmr.idknet.com/md/ www.president-pmr.org/news/dok/obr_md.htm (in fact this document was signed by V.A. Tulgara, an ethnic Moldovan and one of the founders of Transnistria)
You may reject the latter as propaganda, but statistics from independent researchers have shown that Transnistrian Moldovans are overwhelmingly supporters of Transnistrian independence.
Even a document published by a progressive group which studies European integration of Moldova used Cyrillic in one document:
http://www.pca.md/files/publications44.doc
(it's in Document 20, you have to scroll down quite a bit, but all of Document 20 is in Cyrillic).
The big issue: when people visit mo.wikipedia.org and see the Cyrillic content, they believe that this is the language currently used in Moldova.
That's not really an issue. What Wikipedia is for is to provide information using language as a vehicle, not vice-versa. If someone wants to know about Moldovan language, they should go to the article at their respective Wikipedia about the language, rather than mo.wp.
By all this I am trying to explain that current Cyrillic content has nothing to do on mo.wikipedia. If it has any right to exist (low quality content, no
Psh.
The reason for my opinion is that before 28 June 2006http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-June/044584.html, not one time (at least not to my knowledge and not on the Wikipedia-I mailing list ; please correct me if I am wrong) did Mark ackowledge himself as being a native Moldovan speaker. Although he had plenty of occasions, for examplehttp://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-March/043992.html
I did mention it elsewhere, including on my userpage at the Romanian Wikipedia. I don't know if I mentioned it on this mailing list.
Moldovan speaker ever asked for a Moldovan Wikipedia", Mark's response is "Dpotop is spreading FUD". And, as far as I know, Moldovan Wikipedia was created on Mark Williamson's demand.
FUD is an acronym, look it up. This suggests that he is deceiving people, which can include telling lies, which could thus imply that he was lying when he said there are no native speakers.
Also, you're wrong -- Moldovan Wikipedia existed before I found it, it just had no articles (like the Kanuri Wikipedia right now -- http://kr.wikipedia.org/ ).
I am wondering if shouldn't the decision on closing down the Moldovan Wikipediahttp://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-March/043897.htmlbe put in action as soon as possible, to avoid all these useless discussions
No, it won't, because of the new vote. An old decision that was never carried out is unlikely to be put into place without further deliberations if new events transpond.
(if my calculations are correct, the next re-openning of this discussion is scheduled on September 2006http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-September/).
Indeed. And I am not looking forward to it. But I will stock up on my supplies and I will practice my oratory in preparation.
If there are users who want to get out of the state of confusion regarding this issue, they could look here for an acceptably well put status quohttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects#What_decision_makers_need_to_knowand here for some background http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Rezultat_alegeri
Hah. You just happen to provide the one vote which resulted in a "close" result. The VERY FIRST VOTE on that Wikipedia resulted in a clear "leave open".
Mark
HEY! I got an idea!
Make mo.wikipedia a DISAMBIGUATION PAGE. Why wouldn't that work?
mboverload
That's sort of what the main page used to be -- see http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&oldid=10188
But then of course, the current "admin" (who doesn't fulfill any admin duties, AT ALL, except to ban users he doesn't like) replaced it with a huge "go away" sign.
If you mean make the whole domain a disambiguation and move Cyrillic content elsewhere, I will agree to that, but content must be moved FIRSt.
Mark
On 29/06/06, mboverload mboverload@gmail.com wrote:
HEY! I got an idea!
Make mo.wikipedia a DISAMBIGUATION PAGE. Why wouldn't that work?
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