!!!URGENT!!! Dear stewards,
Can one of you please upgrade Cicero and me to sysops on the Limburgic wikipedia? We have an extremely violent vandal at the moment, blanking all pages, and our only current sysop is deconnected from the internet. We MUST block him now. He's razing our whole project. We are http://li.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebroeker:Cicero and http://li.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebroeker:HaafLimbo , respectively.
Thank very, very much in advance,
Wouter.
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From: "Wouter Steenbeek" musiqolog@hotmail.com Reply-To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org To: wikipedia-l@wikipedia.org Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Aggressive vandalism Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:18:52 +0200
!!!URGENT!!! Dear stewards,
Can one of you please upgrade Cicero and me to sysops on the Limburgic wikipedia? We have an extremely violent vandal at the moment, blanking all pages, and our only current sysop is deconnected from the internet. We MUST block him now. He's razing our whole project. We are http://li.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebroeker:Cicero and http://li.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebroeker:HaafLimbo , respectively.
Thank very, very much in advance,
Wouter.
Done in the meantime by JeLuF. Thank you very much....
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Help!!!
Test pages for Võro and Scots language Wikipedia http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/fiu-vro/ http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/fiu-sco/ are in danger!
It was suggested in Wikipedia-list that we should create these pages before creating real Wikipedia in our languages.
Now user of Wikimedia Aphaia threats to erase our work and has already destroyed Scots test page!!
Please do something to keep our work!
Sulev Iva (Meta User Võrok) (En User Võrolang)
The place where our Wikis are listed for deletion. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Requests_for_deletion#Scotland http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Requests_for_deletion#Another_.22Wikiped... Where must we move now?
Sulev Iva
On 5/20/05, Sulev Iva juvasul@ut.ee wrote:
The place where our Wikis are listed for deletion. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Requests_for_deletion#Scotland http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Requests_for_deletion#Another_.22Wikiped... Where must we move now?
Something's gone very wrong when playing chess on the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chess_championship) is acceptable but creating a demo Wikipedia in a new language is not.
If this does not survive VfD, and you want a temporary small wiki, you're welcome at http://scratchpad.wikicities.com/. For a longer term Wikicity, you need consensus within Wikipedia that this language can *not* exist within Wikimedia.
Angela.
Thank you, Angela! If it's impossible to create real Wikipedia in Võro in near future then please move the Võro TestWikipedia as soon as possible to an other location (Wikicities?) if you can do it! Because I am afraid to continue creating new articles in Võro when Võro Test Wiki remains in MetaWiki, it seems too unsafe.
Sulev
20.05.2005 5:07:47, Angela beesley@gmail.com kirot':
On 5/20/05, Sulev Iva juvasul@ut.ee wrote:
The place where our Wikis are listed for deletion. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Requests_for_deletion#Scotland http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Requests_for_deletion#Another_.22Wikiped... Where must we move now?
Something's gone very wrong when playing chess on the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chess_championship) is acceptable but creating a demo Wikipedia in a new language is not.
If this does not survive VfD, and you want a temporary small wiki, you're welcome at http://scratchpad.wikicities.com/. For a longer term Wikicity, you need consensus within Wikipedia that this language can *not* exist within Wikimedia.
Angela.
Angela (beesley@gmail.com) [050520 12:08]:
Something's gone very wrong when playing chess on the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chess_championship) is acceptable but creating a demo Wikipedia in a new language is not. If this does not survive VfD, and you want a temporary small wiki, you're welcome at http://scratchpad.wikicities.com/. For a longer term Wikicity, you need consensus within Wikipedia that this language can *not* exist within Wikimedia.
Is there any actual deletion policy beyond "I feel like it"? Particularly, as seems to have happened here, when the nominator removes the page preremptorily themselves. As I understood it, from posts to this list, starting a new language in a test area in Meta: was something they were actually *supposed* to do.
What on earth is going on here? Beyond "if it survives VFD".
- d.
Actually, I *feel* there is a deletion spree going on on meta, which I find most inappropriate. It seems slowly, the goal of meta, what is acceptable over there is changing and I am not sure at all I like these changes.
Recently for example, someone listed one of my articles, which had been there for more than 2 years, listed under humour and essay. I had to move it as a subpage of mine to avoid it being deleted. The reason given to delete it was "rant and non encyclopedic"
Since WHEN do we have to write only encyclopedic and reasonably boring stuff on meta ?
It is not really surprising me that a birth project got deleted or threatened of deletion as well.
Meanwhile, there is a lot of crap still there, and people are delighted listing themselves under "wikipedians who went to tagadaschtroumpf college and wear 56 size pink shoes with a yellow hat".
What escape me is "what harm does humour and essays on meta when the essays are not insulting anyone ?"
What escape me is "why are some people trying to make meta a really clean and boring place" while it is supposed to be first of all a place for all of us to work together and possibly relax a bit from the stress of the projects ?
What escape me is "why trying to keep the place absolutely clean when it is only a personal site ?"
I would like to recall something I read on meatball a long time ago.
A wiki is a public place, and as all public places, editors are required to follow strict rules. Such as in wikipedia, writing only stuff that is encyclopedic and neutral. This causes stress.
It is very important to reserve personal place to editors so that they can let themselves go beyond the rules of the public places. Such as being biaised or putting some political rant.
Meta is such a place, where we can also share some funny and constructive moments; this also builds the community. And when editors feel confortable, they also join the fun and put new important proposal.
It does mean that meta should host full projects of course, but it is WITHIN meta role to host projects which some poeple are trying to set up.
Such projects should not "survive" deletion. They should NOT be on votes for deletion.
Ihmo.
Or... let's create another meta to really brainstorm on.
Ant
David Gerard a écrit:
Angela (beesley@gmail.com) [050520 12:08]:
Something's gone very wrong when playing chess on the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chess_championship) is acceptable but creating a demo Wikipedia in a new language is not. If this does not survive VfD, and you want a temporary small wiki, you're welcome at http://scratchpad.wikicities.com/. For a longer term Wikicity, you need consensus within Wikipedia that this language can *not* exist within Wikimedia.
Is there any actual deletion policy beyond "I feel like it"? Particularly, as seems to have happened here, when the nominator removes the page preremptorily themselves. As I understood it, from posts to this list, starting a new language in a test area in Meta: was something they were actually *supposed* to do.
What on earth is going on here? Beyond "if it survives VFD".
- d.
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Anthere wrote:
Actually, I *feel* there is a deletion spree going on on meta, which I find most inappropriate. It seems slowly, the goal of meta, what is acceptable over there is changing and I am not sure at all I like these changes.
Recently for example, someone listed one of my articles, which had been there for more than 2 years, listed under humour and essay. I had to move it as a subpage of mine to avoid it being deleted. The reason given to delete it was "rant and non encyclopedic"
Since WHEN do we have to write only encyclopedic and reasonably boring stuff on meta ?
It is not really surprising me that a birth project got deleted or threatened of deletion as well.
Meanwhile, there is a lot of crap still there, and people are delighted listing themselves under "wikipedians who went to tagadaschtroumpf college and wear 56 size pink shoes with a yellow hat".
What escape me is "what harm does humour and essays on meta when the essays are not insulting anyone ?"
What escape me is "why are some people trying to make meta a really clean and boring place" while it is supposed to be first of all a place for all of us to work together and possibly relax a bit from the stress of the projects ?
What escape me is "why trying to keep the place absolutely clean when it is only a personal site ?"
I would like to recall something I read on meatball a long time ago.
A wiki is a public place, and as all public places, editors are required to follow strict rules. Such as in wikipedia, writing only stuff that is encyclopedic and neutral. This causes stress.
It is very important to reserve personal place to editors so that they can let themselves go beyond the rules of the public places. Such as being biaised or putting some political rant.
Meta is such a place, where we can also share some funny and constructive moments; this also builds the community. And when editors feel confortable, they also join the fun and put new important proposal.
It does mean that meta should host full projects of course, but it is WITHIN meta role to host projects which some poeple are trying to set up.
Such projects should not "survive" deletion. They should NOT be on votes for deletion.
Ihmo.
Or... let's create another meta to really brainstorm on.
Ant
meta is a Wiki about Wikipedia. It's not Wikipedia. It's about Wikipedia, Wikipedians, and MediaWiki. It has pages, not articles. No deletions should be taking place like this. There doesn't need to be VFD on meta at all.
- -- Alphax GnuPG key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/8mpg9 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis
Alphax wrote:
meta is a Wiki about Wikipedia. It's not Wikipedia. It's about Wikipedia, Wikipedians, and MediaWiki. It has pages, not articles. No deletions should be taking place like this. There doesn't need to be VFD on meta at all.
Hoi, Thank you for your definition. The only problem with it is, it that it is wrong. Meta is about WikiMedia and its projects. It is about Wikimedians and the communities they belong to. If you care for what we are, in Meta you find that it is about all knowledge in all languages and providing it Freely to all people of this world and how we want to do this.
When people create Wikipedia content in Meta, it is easy to indentify that it is in the wrong place. It is ever so nice that using a VfD system, proper notice is given that it should not be there. This gives the proper notice that something should be done about it. One of these things is: discuss it. :) Thanks, GerardM
Gerard Meijssen (gerard.meijssen@gmail.com) [050521 05:50]:
When people create Wikipedia content in Meta, it is easy to indentify that it is in the wrong place. It is ever so nice that using a VfD system, proper notice is given that it should not be there. This gives the proper notice that something should be done about it. One of these things is: discuss it. :)
So how does that square with people being told on this list to create a test version on Meta if they want a new language Wikipedia?
Can anyone answer this?
- d.
David Gerard wrote:
So how does that square with people being told on this list to create a test version on Meta if they want a new language Wikipedia?
Can anyone answer this?
Maybe whoever told them that could explain it. It seems a bit odd.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Well, Angela and Anthere both seem to endorse it.
The idea actually started with, I believe, the Cantonese debate where Felix Wan decided to go start a Cantonese Test-wikipedia to show people that it really /can/ be done.
I encouraged him, not thinking much about it being against the rules of meta.
After that, I personally suggested the same thing to Amikeco, the founder of the Ossetic Wikipedia, although he had already created an off-site demo.
I suggested the same thing for Scots a while back, in fact I started it myself and let actual Scotsmen populate it with content.
Seelterfraisk was started by HaafLimbo iirc (his username at the Limburgish Wikipedia where I seem it most often because I still have it in my list of Wikipedias I monitor, he's called Wouter Steenbeek on the list I think), at my suggestion.
I personally started Skandinavisk as a test case to see how a bit of clever language planning might positively effect the Scandinavian Wikipedia community. As anybody who knows any Scandinavian language will see, it is not quite Danish or Bokmål, but not quite Swedish either and not Nynorsk. (definitely not Icelandic or Faroese). It is an attempt at an artificially-engineered Scandinavian "happy medium" and I have so far only used it in the context of test-wp.
Fiu-vro was created entirely without my knowledge, and I believe that (and its use of the main article space rather than /test-wp/fiu-vro/ARTICLENAME) is what alerted Aphralagia to the existance of the essperimentu.
Salutatziones Mark
On 20/05/05, Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com wrote:
David Gerard wrote:
So how does that square with people being told on this list to create a test version on Meta if they want a new language Wikipedia?
Can anyone answer this?
Maybe whoever told them that could explain it. It seems a bit odd.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
This is not the first time meta is used to test things before they are set (or even if there are never set). Be it new policies, new templates, new languages of existing projects or even new projects.
I think it is really okay.
A good habit is typically to delete all these articles after the issue is resolved. This has been done quite often : the authors of such test pages often put them for deletion after they have become useless.
I think it is good management to let people room, provided they do not abuse the public space.
Ant
Mark Williamson a écrit:
Well, Angela and Anthere both seem to endorse it.
The idea actually started with, I believe, the Cantonese debate where Felix Wan decided to go start a Cantonese Test-wikipedia to show people that it really /can/ be done.
I encouraged him, not thinking much about it being against the rules of meta.
After that, I personally suggested the same thing to Amikeco, the founder of the Ossetic Wikipedia, although he had already created an off-site demo.
I suggested the same thing for Scots a while back, in fact I started it myself and let actual Scotsmen populate it with content.
Seelterfraisk was started by HaafLimbo iirc (his username at the Limburgish Wikipedia where I seem it most often because I still have it in my list of Wikipedias I monitor, he's called Wouter Steenbeek on the list I think), at my suggestion.
I personally started Skandinavisk as a test case to see how a bit of clever language planning might positively effect the Scandinavian Wikipedia community. As anybody who knows any Scandinavian language will see, it is not quite Danish or Bokmål, but not quite Swedish either and not Nynorsk. (definitely not Icelandic or Faroese). It is an attempt at an artificially-engineered Scandinavian "happy medium" and I have so far only used it in the context of test-wp.
Fiu-vro was created entirely without my knowledge, and I believe that (and its use of the main article space rather than /test-wp/fiu-vro/ARTICLENAME) is what alerted Aphralagia to the existance of the essperimentu.
Salutatziones Mark
On 20/05/05, Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com wrote:
David Gerard wrote:
So how does that square with people being told on this list to create a test version on Meta if they want a new language Wikipedia?
Can anyone answer this?
Maybe whoever told them that could explain it. It seems a bit odd.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Brion Vibber wrote:
Maybe whoever told them that could explain it.
They have when they did...
It seems a bit odd.
Says who?
I thought it was a very good idea, and to me it's putting Meta to a very good use. So far, I've never really understood the point in meta other than collecting humorous articles and a few philosophical discussions about the Wiki principle which mirror stuff already on MeatBall.
Timwi
Timwi a écrit:
Brion Vibber wrote:
Maybe whoever told them that could explain it.
They have when they did...
It seems a bit odd.
Says who?
I thought it was a very good idea, and to me it's putting Meta to a very good use. So far, I've never really understood the point in meta other than collecting humorous articles and a few philosophical discussions about the Wiki principle which mirror stuff already on MeatBall.
Timwi
There are two principles in meta, which do not exist on MeatBall. First it allows anyone to post (and not people under their real name as in MeatBall) and second it allows to do so in any languages (while MeatBall is english first of all, french possibly second).
I'll add that Sunir was a bit tired to see so many wikipedians at some points, as the experience we were reporting was not the experience of the hightest majority of wiki, but the one of a rather unique case. He feared this would come to principles being reported being applicable to large wikis predominently. Remember this : http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?action=browse&id=WikiLifeCycle&o...
There are some professionals (business) who now hesitate to set up a wiki for their firm, as they think "it will be a very small community, only a big community can really work on a wiki as wikipedia shows. We are not numerous enough".
Just thoughts. I regret we do not hear much more of Sunir any more :-)
anth
Timwi a écrit:
Brion Vibber wrote:
Maybe whoever told them that could explain it.
They have when they did...
It seems a bit odd.
Says who?
I thought it was a very good idea, and to me it's putting Meta to a very good use. So far, I've never really understood the point in meta other than collecting humorous articles and a few philosophical discussions about the Wiki principle which mirror stuff already on MeatBall.
Timwi
There are two principles in meta, which do not exist on MeatBall. First it allows anyone to post (and not people under their real name as in MeatBall) and second it allows to do so in any languages (while MeatBall is english first of all, french possibly second).
I'll add that Sunir was a bit tired to see so many wikipedians at some points, as the experience we were reporting was not the experience of the hightest majority of wiki, but the one of a rather unique case. He feared this would come to principles being reported being applicable to large wikis predominently. Remember this : http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?action=browse&id=WikiLifeCycle&o...
There are some professionals (business) who now hesitate to set up a wiki for their firm, as they think "it will be a very small community, only a big community can really work on a wiki as wikipedia shows. We are not numerous enough".
Just thoughts. I regret we do not hear much more of Sunir any more :-)
anth
Now that we've seen all this, can someone tell Aphaia he has to keep his hands off from the test wikis? I'm sure he will go on erasing the work of others when he isn't told that by someone like Jimbo, Angela, Tony or Anthere.
Regards, W
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Wouter Steenbeek a écrit:
Just thoughts. I regret we do not hear much more of Sunir any more :-)
anth
Now that we've seen all this, can someone tell Aphaia he has to keep his hands off from the test wikis? I'm sure he will go on erasing the work of others when he isn't told that by someone like Jimbo, Angela, Tony or Anthere.
Regards, W
Hmmmmm Wouter...
Please consider to say "she" for Aphaia instead of "he"
Also, we are talking of meta, not of test. Aphaia is not admin on test and cannot delete anything there;
Third, if Aphaia deletes things and we do not agree, we can simply restore. No big deal.
And please consider than even if I really do not agree with her opinion on such deletion matters (I am a very very inclusionnist one, while she appears to be very much of a cleaner), nor on what meta should be used about... I also like Aphaia very much... and value very much her contributions to our projects. She is in particular extremely helpful in all translating matters. She is also a sensible person, and I would not want to be harsh to her. I wish she takes into account in the future comments made on meta on the votes for deletion page... however, I would *never* consider *telling* her what to erase and what to not erase. I may not agree with her on this, but she is allowed free will as long as the community agrees. Same for me.
Anthere
PS : who is Tony ?
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Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Alphax wrote:
meta is a Wiki about Wikipedia. It's not Wikipedia. It's about Wikipedia, Wikipedians, and MediaWiki. It has pages, not articles. No deletions should be taking place like this. There doesn't need to be VFD on meta at all.
Hoi, Thank you for your definition. The only problem with it is, it that it is wrong. Meta is about WikiMedia and its projects. It is about Wikimedians and the communities they belong to. If you care for what we are, in Meta you find that it is about all knowledge in all languages and providing it Freely to all people of this world and how we want to do this.
There are wikis other than Wikipedia? :)
Yes, meta is Wikimedia central (while not being Wikimedia.org). The co-ordination point for Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Wikiquote, Commons etc.
When people create Wikipedia content in Meta, it is easy to indentify that it is in the wrong place. It is ever so nice that using a VfD system, proper notice is given that it should not be there. This gives the proper notice that something should be done about it. One of these things is: discuss it. :)
Ok, maybe it does need VfD - but surely the test wikis shouldn't just be deleted because they have encylopedic content?
- -- Alphax GnuPG key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/8mpg9 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis
Angela wrote:
Something's gone very wrong when playing chess on the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chess_championship) is acceptable but creating a demo Wikipedia in a new language is not.
Angela is right. These demo Wikipedias have my full support.
(I notice that I'm a few days behind, so probably this is already resolved one way or the other.)
--Jimbo
Hi Sulev,
you are wrong about Scots, you are using the wrong URL, she has not deleted it.
see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/
I'm sure that if she deleted it circumventing due process Angela would've restored it.
Mark
On 19/05/05, Sulev Iva juvasul@ut.ee wrote:
Help!!!
Test pages for Võro and Scots language Wikipedia http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/fiu-vro/ http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/fiu-sco/ are in danger!
It was suggested in Wikipedia-list that we should create these pages before creating real Wikipedia in our languages.
Now user of Wikimedia Aphaia threats to erase our work and has already destroyed Scots test page!!
Please do something to keep our work!
Sulev Iva (Meta User Võrok) (En User Võrolang)
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org