The idea is not absolutely new.

We use the absolutely similar approach at the Ossetic Wikipedia (we call it "Project <<Tskhinval Teachers>>". The essence of the project is paying teachers from South Ossetia a 2,5-USD equivalent for every article (up from 2500 characters). We pay nothing for the first article (regarding it as a test). The Project have started in the middle of April and by now we have 3 interested persons in S. Ossetia, an extremely poor region where 2,5 USD can buy much more than even in the neighbouring North Ossetia. Two large articles (both about Ossetian-language writers; but we do not really limit the topics) have been already prepared; you can see them both:

We are working on widening the network of involved teachers (and we are also planning to involve local Ossetian-language journalists from South Ossetia). We are also seeking ways to enlarge the funds of the Project, for now we can pay not more than 20 articles by the whole accumulated money (and we would like not only to pay for articles, but also use some money for local advertisement of Wikipedia in both South and North Ossetia). The Project is not run by any organization, but by a group of independent persons (mostly in North Ossetia and Moscow) interested in the success of the Ossetian Wikipedia. So it's void of the risk, you mentioned concerning the wo.wikipedia. Best wishes, Slavik

2005/5/27, Anthere &lt;anthere9(a)yahoo.com&gt;om>:

I am also very happy about the users Alard and Ruslan (the letter name in Cyrillic): Alard helps immensely as a native speaker from a smaller town of Alagir; he works at an IT firm and is always on line, I can consult him via ICQ at any time; Ruslan is a native speaker of Digor dialect and he contributes about the places in western Ossetia, where the dialect is been spoken. He also promises a comprehensive article about Digor for the speakers of the main form.

ru, os, eo, av, cv:Amikeco/m:Slavik IVANOV

As for the articles coming from the South Ossetian teachers, I get them by e-mail and put them to WP (after wikifying; they come as a simple text file or a Word file).

Well, the validation is really simple by now: 1. Check numbers as far as it's possible (first of all dates of birth and death for biography articles); 2. Give the text to a native speaker from the North to test how understandable it is. Sometimes a phrase or two are not well composed and we change word order or do similare editing. I also have to pay attention to spelling: I have learnt the language by books and newspapers, so my spelling is very good (for me the Ossetic is first of all a written language), but for most Ossetians the language is first of all a spoken one -- and they often do spelling mistakes.

1 active teacher (female under 30), two more interested but not writing yet. Other people involved are: - volunteer co-ordinator in Tshkhinval (local journalist, ethic Ossetian): he helps us interact with the writers via e-mail; - volunteer co-ordinator at the Ossetic WP (me): putting the texts, wikifying them, spell-checking, finding proof-readers, raising funds, writing articles to Ossetia-related sites like iriston.ru, iryston.com and ossetia.ru, etc. - proof-readers (3 native speakers), sponsors (4 persons).

The journalist informed the locals about the "first encyclopedia in Ossetian"; some of them got interested. Neither computers, nor Internet are widely available in S.Ossetia -- so the interest could rest just the interest, but then the bright idea appeared... :) And we proposed the payed writing for the persons, who were, as we had already known, really interested. We didn't advertised the project much because of 2 reasons: - we don't have much funds: maybe 5-20 articles a month are our limit; - we wouldn't like to make other people think that writing for WP must be payed; may they write for free if they can.

You see, the schools and universities of a higher quality group are at Vladikavkaz. There Ossetians no longer use the language for scientific or similar purposes: the Russian is prevailing. The task of the Project is not only to find chip writers, but also to find the last literate speakers of Ossetian and pay them for being used. Among our further plans is looking for such people in the villages of North Ossetia, where exists at least one highly literate group: the teachers of the Ossetian language. But most of them are not at all good computer users... So we have many interesting challenges.

We are also planning to meet authorities of the North Ossetian State University in order to organize presentations of Wikipedia at several faculties. The future Ossetian philologists and journalists might get much experience from writing texts in WP. Still such a presentation does not seem possible in the nearest future, for it's not easy for me to go to Vladikavkaz now. Born there, I live in St.Petersburg at the Baltic Sea at the moment. Sl.

Dear Anthere, <<Just a side comment. Perhaps you should mention in the comment box the name of the original author. I would see two benefits First it is more honest toward the author, who is credite is work. Second, it is good image to show several people are contributing.>> Sure, you are right! Thank you for the idea: I've been thinking about creating a Category or a Template for the purpose, but finally considered mixing content with authorship a not so good idea. But putting a name into the comment line is both easy and really useful. Or should I register a special account to post all the articles created in the project? That will make searching them very easy, etc. What do you think? <<Nod. Both arguments are fair. I would like to know whether these teachers have themselves good internet access ? Presumably quite limited ?>> As for the only teacher, who is working already on her 3rd article now, she has some limited but free access to a Win98-computer at her school. There she types her text in MS Word format and brings it on a diskette to the South Ossetian journalist, who sends the text to me via e-mail. The same journalist also shows her the result of her work at the Wikipedia. Her first article (about the writer Nafi Jusoity) is now the elected one, its part is on the first page, and as far as I know the teacher is very proud about the fact. I don't think it's a good idea to involve manuscripts: if a person can't use a computer at all, this person probably can't imagine electronic text (moreover hypertext) and its specialities. That's why we are most of all interested in younger teachers and students of Ossetian-related specialities (future journalists and teachers). Besides the texts for WP we achieve another purpose: raise the prestege of the language, showing that quality texts in it are needed and can be paid. <<Perhaps a collaboration with computer offer ?>> Can you tell more about your idea? I didn't get it. << Can you tell me more about the reasons why this does not seem possible in the nearest future ? I think your experience sounds very.. >> Well, at least because the study year is over by the end of May. The best time for such presentations at the local universities is October-November or February-March, when the students are not frightened by the nearing exams and have time to participate in projects like WP. Slavik/Amikeco -- Esperu cxiam! _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

> it's often a possibility that the person has seen a webpage but that > writing the manuscript out in longhand is more convenient for them.

> Just because you don't have access to a computer doesn't mean you > never HAVE had access. And you might have access to a computer, but it > might be inconvenient compared to writing on paper and using > conventional post.

>>Or should I register a special account to post all the articles >>created in the project? That will make searching them very easy, etc. >>What do you think?

>>>Among our further plans is looking for such people in the villages of >>>North Ossetia, where exists at least one highly literate group: the >>>teachers of the Ossetian language. But most of them are not at all >>>good computer users... So we have many interesting challenges. >> >><<Perhaps a collaboration with computer offer ?>> >> >>Can you tell more about your idea? I didn't get it.

Reading this thread... An idea that pops up right now... Communities could be provided with one or more computers, under the condition they regularly write new Wikipedia articles. An internet connection is probably too expensive at such places. This way people can be provided with lots of valuable information in languages some people can understand while at the same time working on information in their native language. Make computer usage free for people who contribute to Wikimedia projects (or localization, documentation, development of free software, free information projects), and people who don't contribute can choose to pay a small sum that pays the electricity, and possibly the internet connection...

This kind of innovation is important. The fact that you outline unsuccessful strategies, and what was done to find alternative techniques is highly instructive. How old were the computers that were put in the community school? How stable is electrical power in Bamako?

The idea is not absolutely new. We use the absolutely similar approach at the Ossetic Wikipedia (we call it "Project <<Tskhinval Teachers>>". The essence of the project is paying teachers from South Ossetia a 2,5-USD equivalent for every article (up from 2500 characters).

http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B6%D1%83%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B9%D1%82%D1%… http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B7%D1%83%D1%86%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%…

2005/5/28, Timwi &lt;timwi(a)gmx.net&gt;et>: Say, offer a preferable topic or even a certain article (or article set).

The very large problem here is the validation. Someone must check: - if the article is really in the language in question. :) - if the article is about what its title is. - if the style is sufficiently encyclopedical. - if the money go to the author (and not fully or partly to the "mediator"). The easiest way here is maybe launching such projects only when an active Wikipedian(or a few of them) in the WP already exists (e. g. as in the [[:os:]] and [[:cv:]] now).

Mind that for such sources the copyright is no longer in effect (books published in the USSR before 1971 are no longer copyright-defended if the server is in the US). That means that for the languages of Russia we could start another project along with the "Paid-for-Articles" -- a project of scanning older sources and creative reusing them in WP articles, thus preserving the once very active written traditions.

I would be wary of any scheme to pay people for articles. We have prided ourselves on an all volunteer production in all languages.

The one thing that is not mentioned in the discussion is who would fund this proposal.

But you raise an important issue, which is whether *we* as an *organisation* should financially help similar ideas (ie, paying editors). Of course, this requires specific requirements (such as control, validation of final quality, starting language with few editors expected, local organisers etc...), but on the concept, should we or should we not ?

You are perfectly allright : till now, editors have always been volunteers. Which could be the consequences that start paying some, even if it is on a small and little know language ?

Given that the goal of the Foundation is "to encouraging the growth, development and distribution of free, multilingual content, and to providing the full content of these wiki-based projects to the public free of charge", I would say that supporting such projects (ie, paying editors in certain specific conditions) is within our area of action. What I do not know is whether it would be acceptable to do it with donation money, or if grants should be seek (sought ?) to support such an involvement. I would really welcome opinions on this. In the past year, I have seen little criticizing (as opposed to supporting) comments related to the way the Foundation money should be spent, but for comments saying (a year ago) that developers should get paid in priorities before Angie and my costs be reimbursed, or comments saying (early 2005) that with all the money we got, the website should be more accessible.

Perhaps a beginning of an answer would be that current developers do not seem overall to be mad with the idea of Chad and Brion be paid, while they are not. It may be because they consider Brion has been working a lot for the project and deserve to be partially paid by the Foundation, it may be because they consider that Chad work is required and can not be done any more by Jimbo. In short, it is acceptable because one is known and loved, and acceptable because the other is seen as doing a mandatory job. I am not sure, not being in the developer team. I suppose participation to such project will be possibly acceptable to editors if they can see where the benefits stands. Just thoughts. Waiting for all of yours.

If I wanted to give to such a place delivery could be a big problem. If you send cash or if you send the computers there will always be too many open hands between you and the recipient. If you use mainstream NGOs money also gets wasted sending the cameraman to take pictures of the NGO agent doing his good deeds. In the early stages you need someone there whom you can trust to distribute the funds properly.

> The one thing that is not mentioned in the discussion is who would fund > this proposal. Is there a rich Ossetian benefactor willing to pay for > this idea? There are many other languages that could benefit from this > approach, but it should not be the responsibility of the general > community to pay for such things in other languages either.

This is not a proposal, it already exist. It is currently funded by individuals, who may or may not be contributors. I just do not know.

Do you have any plans for any other Russian minority languages? Obviously the Tatar Wikipedia doesn't exactly need such a boost, but the Chuvash Wikipedia could use it (60-something articles right now I think), as could the Chechen, Abkhaz, etc.

nearly all existing institutes won't really bother as long as there's not a basic amount of articles.

Guaka scripsit: Well, in the case of the Limburgic wikipedia: the institutions were simply ignorant of the project. Recently we started contacting some of them, receiving positive reactions and some beginning edits, even though they hadn't yet informed their members.

I have been thinking it would be a good idea that you summarize your experience with os: on meta. Could it be possible that you write for us a text to explain it and which could be read by a person external to wikipedia ? Something like * "short summary" about ossetia and its language (possibly economic situation, number of speakers etc...) * History and current state of its wiki * your currently action, with number of people contacted, number of donators, amount of donation, which actions are intended... this sort of things.

Anthere wrote: I'm satisfied to know that the funding for this is local. As long as it's clear that the funding for this sort of thing comes from a local organization there can be no liability by WMF in general for unkept promises or other legal problems. Perhaps it would be good to have a written policy by the Board disclaiming responsibility for local activity, which would be the subject of local law. The more positive attitude that I have is that funding from people directly interested in a language will do more for that Wikipedia (or Wiktionary) than any kind of advocating that someone like Mark would do. Those of us who to whom Ossetian and Bambara are nothing more than entries in a dictionary of languages can do nothing practical about the development of Wikis in those languages. Local organizations should also feel free to seek government funding for work on their own language. African governments are notoriously poor, and cannot be expected to do much, but even they can gain better support from their own population by investing small amounts in the right places. Small amounts invested by an African government to protect local culture from aggressive foreign languages may be more productive than anything that Mr. Chirac can sapend in support of his own seriously endangered language. No minor language project can succeed unles it has at least one highly dedicated who can guide the project through its infancy, and begin to attract others to the project. The down side of this is that a new project may express a strong POV on such delicate subjects as Ossetian independance. Beyond those early days when the need is to develop functioning software, the next test becomes how it deals with other personalities that have an equally strong butdifferent POV. Again, to have a sucessful project the initiative must come from those who would belong to that project, not from those of us sitting in our rich country idealism. We can make them aware of the possibilities; we can even supply hardware. Beyond that it's up to them. A football team that does not kick the ball does not win. Larry was probably a necessary wet nurse in his time. While Jimbe likely needed to more directly spend time with the infrastructure then, engineering a working model of the intellectual structure was a big job. The initiator of a new project should not need to worry about infrastructure or the development of a working model. He can be more quickly involved with content. Brion and Chad are not being paid for content, but for more technical services that couldn't be done otherwise. We can accomodate dilletantes among content providers where we have many. There are as many dilletantes in the world of software development, often with many ideas and little practical experience. In that environment a hired cat-herder is very important. I'm not up-to-date on the need for a paperwork person, but it's easy to imagine that need in an organisation that's so big. I appreciate your point about the positions being filled by Americans. For Chad's position I don't think that other viable options were available, and Brion is probably the best person for the job, nationality notwithstanding. I can't comment on the paperwork person, because I don't know exactly what needs to be done, though I suspect much of it may have to do with preparing reports to comply with American laws. The role of Americans in many international situations is a very sensitive issue with many competing facets that go beyond our little project. It would be unwise for me to go further down that road at this time. Since you raised the point, "sought" is the correct usage there. I oppose a general policy of paying editors. The effect of that is to set up two classes of editors, and that results in quite a different dynamicamong the editors. Even if it becomes necessary to pay someone to provide organizational coherence to a specific project, it should be made clear that he is not being paid to edit. Such paid jobs should have a limited duration with no possibility of rehiring for a period of time that is at least twice as long as the job lasted. Reimbursing someone for her proper expenses is completely different from paying that person for the job that she does. I think that the comments that you cite are made out of ignorance by someone who has never had to do business. If you need to travel somewhere as an official representative of the WMF you certainly should not need to pay for your own plane fare There are two aspects of such hiring decisions: do we need to fill such a position, and who should be that person. If we don't need to hire somebody it is pointless to look for somebody to hire. The job needs to be defined first. Ec _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

Ray Saintonge wrote: I am both wary and wildly enthusiastic. This is something which is springing up around the world with little or no input from us, spontaneously and grassroots, and that's usually an indicator of it being a Good Thing. I am hopeful that it will prove useful, but I wonder. --Jimbo _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

V. Ivanov wrote: Aw man! I would gladly pay that sum to anyone who can write articles in some of my favourite exotic languages (Zulu, Xhosa, Navajo, Nahuatl, Hmong -- all of these are million-speaker languages). Maybe we should make this concept better known globally. Maybe we should organise a list of Wikipedians who are prepared to give money to poor people in return for an article in a language that has an inactive Wikipedia. The Wikipedians would be able to specify any conditions, but once their conditions are fulfilled, they should be legally obliged to pay out the money they offered. Of course, for that to work, there needs to be a way of getting the message (and later, the money) to the people. Maybe someone has a few ideas? Maybe someone should add interwiki links to these. :-) _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

Anthere wrote: How come that the Main Page is still largely in French? I am particularly surprised that it seems to switch between Bamanankan and French in the middle of sentences. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

Anthere wrote: How come that the Main Page is still largely in French? I am particularly surprised that it seems to switch between Bamanankan and French in the middle of sentences.