Hello everyone,
First of all: Don't worry -- this is my one and only posting on this topic.
The vote, while being clear in itself, has some VERY troublesome aspects to it. And it doesn't seem to address what ought to be the primary concern, namely to provide information to those Moldovan-speakers who read Cyrillic script better than Latin script.
With the risk of being called names by some (please don't), I make the following honest proposal:
1) Let the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia be locked *but accessible* for now.
2) Install a Latin--Cyrillic converter similar to the one on SR:WP on RO:WP. It does NOT need to be perfect, but it should render the text REASONABLY intelligible in Cyrillic. It also (at least for now) needs to work only from Latin to Cyrillic, since the editors seem to work almost exclusively in Latin script.
3) Make a little snippet on the main page of :ro: to note that one can view this WP in Cyrillic for the benefit of people in Transdnistria and whoever else might prefer viewing the contents in Cyrillic.
4) Then -- and ONLY then --, archive the Cyrillic version and make it an automatic redirect to :ro:.
This will *respect the decision* made in the vote, while it also takes care of an important aspect which was left out of the process -- namely, making the information available to ALL Romanian-/Moldavian-speakers -- and especially those who may need such information the most...
Respectfully,
Olve Utne
(from the admin team on Nynorsk Wikipedia)
I agree with Olve on all counts, however, I'm worried about something:
What will be the reaction if the Romanian Wikipedia converts automatically to Cyrillic? Not just among Wikipedians, but among Romanians in general.
Mark
On 11/03/06, Olve Utne olve.utne@gmail.com wrote:
Hello everyone,
First of all: Don't worry -- this is my one and only posting on this topic.
The vote, while being clear in itself, has some VERY troublesome aspects to it. And it doesn't seem to address what ought to be the primary concern, namely to provide information to those Moldovan-speakers who read Cyrillic script better than Latin script.
With the risk of being called names by some (please don't), I make the following honest proposal:
Let the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia be locked *but accessible* for now.
Install a Latin--Cyrillic converter similar to the one on SR:WP on
RO:WP. It does NOT need to be perfect, but it should render the text REASONABLY intelligible in Cyrillic. It also (at least for now) needs to work only from Latin to Cyrillic, since the editors seem to work almost exclusively in Latin script.
- Make a little snippet on the main page of :ro: to note that one
can view this WP in Cyrillic for the benefit of people in Transdnistria and whoever else might prefer viewing the contents in Cyrillic.
- Then -- and ONLY then --, archive the Cyrillic version and make it
an automatic redirect to :ro:.
This will *respect the decision* made in the vote, while it also takes care of an important aspect which was left out of the process -- namely, making the information available to ALL Romanian-/Moldavian-speakers -- and especially those who may need such information the most...
Respectfully,
Olve Utne
(from the admin team on Nynorsk Wikipedia)
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
On 3/11/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
What will be the reaction if the Romanian Wikipedia converts automatically to Cyrillic? Not just among Wikipedians, but among Romanians in general.
Anyone who reacts negatively is being frankly ridiculous. Not that such behaviour is unlikely, of course.
These seem to be the facts as I see them: (let me know if I get anything wrong)
1. There are some people who speak a language that is essentially a version of Romanian (whether under that name, Moldovan, or whatever) but read and write it in Cyrillic characters. These include some people unable to read Romanian in Latin script, and others who would prefer to read it in Cyrillic because they're more familiar with it that way. 2. There has proven to be, currently, insufficient contributors interested in producing a Cyrillic-script Wikipedia in this language to make it a truly vibrant and alive project. 3. It is possible to transliterate latin-script Romanian into cyrillic script in an automated fashion with few errors. Some words etc. have to be special-cased because it isn't always a 1:1 transliteration, but it's certainly feasible.
It seems to me that having a Romanian latin-script source base with automated transliteration into Cyrillic should keep most practical people in all communities happy. The source text base being in Latin script should satisfy most Romanian nationalists, since it puts latin script in the primary position and ensures that all new Wikipedia developments in the language are written in that version.
Having an automated transliteration into Cyrillic script should not be seen as a bad thing even from that perspective - but rather acknowledging the simple fact that some people would be unable to use a Latin-script Romanian project. Indeed, it could be seen from the Romanian-nationalist perspective as actually encouraging those people to learn or the Latin-script version in baby steps, since to contribute they'd have to learn it.
While this solution doesn't allow people to contribute in Cyrillic script, it acknowledges the fact that there seems to be little editor base to work on a Cyrillic script Moldovan wikipedia. A read-only but more complete and useful Cyrillic version obtainable by machine-transliteration from the Latin script would serve readers and users better than a Cyrillic-only but tiny project.
-Matt
Dear Matt,
You correctly understood the situation, but just a part of it. The fact that Romanian can be transliterated into cyrillic was already known, but there is also the question of where to put this tool.
Leaving it at mo.wiki proved to be useless/bad, for it gathered no further support, and at the same time managed to stir nationalisms. Putting it at mo-cyr may be an idea, although giving a wiki domain to a bot may seem an overkill. Finally, putting it on ro.wiki as a full-fledged script raises another question: The current moldovan cyrillic script is a Soviet invention. When Romanian was written in cyrillic script (until mid-19th century) another cyrillic alphabet was in use.
Please, advise, Dpotop
Matt Brown morven@gmail.com wrote: On 3/11/06, Mark Williamson wrote:
What will be the reaction if the Romanian Wikipedia converts automatically to Cyrillic? Not just among Wikipedians, but among Romanians in general.
Anyone who reacts negatively is being frankly ridiculous. Not that such behaviour is unlikely, of course.
These seem to be the facts as I see them: (let me know if I get anything wrong)
1. There are some people who speak a language that is essentially a version of Romanian (whether under that name, Moldovan, or whatever) but read and write it in Cyrillic characters. These include some people unable to read Romanian in Latin script, and others who would prefer to read it in Cyrillic because they're more familiar with it that way. 2. There has proven to be, currently, insufficient contributors interested in producing a Cyrillic-script Wikipedia in this language to make it a truly vibrant and alive project. 3. It is possible to transliterate latin-script Romanian into cyrillic script in an automated fashion with few errors. Some words etc. have to be special-cased because it isn't always a 1:1 transliteration, but it's certainly feasible.
It seems to me that having a Romanian latin-script source base with automated transliteration into Cyrillic should keep most practical people in all communities happy. The source text base being in Latin script should satisfy most Romanian nationalists, since it puts latin script in the primary position and ensures that all new Wikipedia developments in the language are written in that version.
Having an automated transliteration into Cyrillic script should not be seen as a bad thing even from that perspective - but rather acknowledging the simple fact that some people would be unable to use a Latin-script Romanian project. Indeed, it could be seen from the Romanian-nationalist perspective as actually encouraging those people to learn or the Latin-script version in baby steps, since to contribute they'd have to learn it.
While this solution doesn't allow people to contribute in Cyrillic script, it acknowledges the fact that there seems to be little editor base to work on a Cyrillic script Moldovan wikipedia. A read-only but more complete and useful Cyrillic version obtainable by machine-transliteration from the Latin script would serve readers and users better than a Cyrillic-only but tiny project.
-Matt _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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I'm sorry to say this, but I think that any form of Latin --> Cyrillic conversion would be most unacceptable for the Romanian Wikipedia. Unlike Serbian (and Tatar, for example), Romanian is not a biscriptal language - it is a language written in the Latin script. Making ro.wiki similar to sr.wikimakes it seem as if the Cyrillic script is a script in which Romanian can be written as well, which is not true. The Cyrillic script for Moldovan is being used in Transnistria only, and while there may be a need to cater for content in that variant, mixing it up with the Romanian Wikipedia is, IMO, much too contoversial. In total, only about 1% of total Romanian or Moldovan speakers write in Cyrillic, and an increasingly large amount of them know Latin as well.
People here know my viewpoints on such issues (I am very pro-minority rights), but I personally find this proposal much too controversial. It risks putting an end to the Romanian Wikipedia community.
Ronline
If you agree that minorities should be catered to, but you don't believe ro.wiki is the appropriate location, then what IS the appropriate location?
Mark
On 12/03/06, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) rowikipedia@gmail.com wrote:
I'm sorry to say this, but I think that any form of Latin --> Cyrillic conversion would be most unacceptable for the Romanian Wikipedia. Unlike Serbian (and Tatar, for example), Romanian is not a biscriptal language - it is a language written in the Latin script. Making ro.wiki similar to sr.wikimakes it seem as if the Cyrillic script is a script in which Romanian can be written as well, which is not true. The Cyrillic script for Moldovan is being used in Transnistria only, and while there may be a need to cater for content in that variant, mixing it up with the Romanian Wikipedia is, IMO, much too contoversial. In total, only about 1% of total Romanian or Moldovan speakers write in Cyrillic, and an increasingly large amount of them know Latin as well.
People here know my viewpoints on such issues (I am very pro-minority rights), but I personally find this proposal much too controversial. It risks putting an end to the Romanian Wikipedia community.
Ronline _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
On 3/12/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
If you agree that minorities should be catered to, but you don't believe ro.wiki is the appropriate location, then what IS the appropriate location?
Mark
A subdomain, such as mo-cyr:. At the moment, however, there doesn't seem to be the demand for that. But I think far too much energy has been put into this case to cater for a use that at the moment isn't even there, when other Wikipedias, such as Romany, which have active users willing to contribute and many potential readers, sit in waiting.
I think it's more accurate to say that far too much energy has been put into this case to attempt to NOT cater for a use.
All of the energy that has been focused on closing mowiki would have been much more constructive if focused on OPENING WPs for minority languages of Romania.
Mark
On 12/03/06, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) rowikipedia@gmail.com wrote:
On 3/12/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
If you agree that minorities should be catered to, but you don't believe ro.wiki is the appropriate location, then what IS the appropriate location?
Mark
A subdomain, such as mo-cyr:. At the moment, however, there doesn't seem to be the demand for that. But I think far too much energy has been put into this case to cater for a use that at the moment isn't even there, when other Wikipedias, such as Romany, which have active users willing to contribute and many potential readers, sit in waiting. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
Indeed, Mark. Why don't you champion the rights of actual minorities (such as the roms) instead of promoting conservative stalinist ideas with your mo.wiki?
Ceterum censeo, you still haven't provided the list of Moldovan users supporting your hobby mo.wiki.
Dpotop
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote: I think it's more accurate to say that far too much energy has been put into this case to attempt to NOT cater for a use.
All of the energy that has been focused on closing mowiki would have been much more constructive if focused on OPENING WPs for minority languages of Romania.
Mark
On 12/03/06, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) wrote:
On 3/12/06, Mark Williamson wrote:
If you agree that minorities should be catered to, but you don't believe ro.wiki is the appropriate location, then what IS the appropriate location?
Mark
A subdomain, such as mo-cyr:. At the moment, however, there doesn't seem to be the demand for that. But I think far too much energy has been put into this case to cater for a use that at the moment isn't even there, when other Wikipedias, such as Romany, which have active users willing to contribute and many potential readers, sit in waiting. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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Yes, I have.
And why don't YOU champion their rights instead of fighting for the deletion of a Wikipedia?
Mark
On 12/03/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Indeed, Mark. Why don't you champion the rights of actual minorities (such as the roms) instead of promoting conservative stalinist ideas with your mo.wiki?
Ceterum censeo, you still haven't provided the list of Moldovan users supporting your hobby mo.wiki.
Dpotop
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote: I think it's more accurate to say that far too much energy has been put into this case to attempt to NOT cater for a use.
All of the energy that has been focused on closing mowiki would have been much more constructive if focused on OPENING WPs for minority languages of Romania.
Mark
On 12/03/06, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) wrote:
On 3/12/06, Mark Williamson wrote:
If you agree that minorities should be catered to, but you don't believe ro.wiki is the appropriate location, then what IS the appropriate location?
Mark
A subdomain, such as mo-cyr:. At the moment, however, there doesn't seem to be the demand for that. But I think far too much energy has been put into this case to cater for a use that at the moment isn't even there, when other Wikipedias, such as Romany, which have active users willing to contribute and many potential readers, sit in waiting. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
There is a slight problem with your proposal: no Moldovan speaker ever asked for a Moldovan wikipedia. And, even more funny, there is no wikipedia user registered as Moldovan speaker (at any level) on meta.wiki, en.wiki, and ro.wiki. On mo.wiki, someone created the category, but it's void. I suggest you all go and look for yourselves.
So, aren't you trying to solve a non-problem?
You know, just because Mark Williamson cries something strong enough does not mean he is right. Unfortunately, it is easy to fall into the trap of thinking that Mark actually represents an endangered minority. The problem is that he is this minority. Alone. I asked him several times before to post a list of Moldovan supporters. Or at least one. But he avoided the question.
And there is a second problem. He is not really part of the minority he claims to protect. And this is the real problem -- the fact that he hijacked the name of an existing people in order to promote some personal political beliefs that hurt the actual people he is claiming to defend.
Yours, [[:en:Dpotop]], [[:ro:Dpotop]], [[:mo:Dpotop]]
Olve Utne olve.utne@gmail.com wrote: Hello everyone,
First of all: Don't worry -- this is my one and only posting on this topic.
The vote, while being clear in itself, has some VERY troublesome aspects to it. And it doesn't seem to address what ought to be the primary concern, namely to provide information to those Moldovan-speakers who read Cyrillic script better than Latin script.
With the risk of being called names by some (please don't), I make the following honest proposal:
1) Let the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia be locked *but accessible* for now.
2) Install a Latin--Cyrillic converter similar to the one on SR:WP on RO:WP. It does NOT need to be perfect, but it should render the text REASONABLY intelligible in Cyrillic. It also (at least for now) needs to work only from Latin to Cyrillic, since the editors seem to work almost exclusively in Latin script.
3) Make a little snippet on the main page of :ro: to note that one can view this WP in Cyrillic for the benefit of people in Transdnistria and whoever else might prefer viewing the contents in Cyrillic.
4) Then -- and ONLY then --, archive the Cyrillic version and make it an automatic redirect to :ro:.
This will *respect the decision* made in the vote, while it also takes care of an important aspect which was left out of the process -- namely, making the information available to ALL Romanian-/Moldavian-speakers -- and especially those who may need such information the most...
Respectfully,
Olve Utne
(from the admin team on Nynorsk Wikipedia)
_______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
--------------------------------- Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!
Dpotop is spreading FUD. Please, re-read Olve Utne's original e-mail. He does not mention Moldovans, or me, or Moldovan speakers. He simply mentions the real people who use Cyrillic, and they do exist.
Mark
On 12/03/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
There is a slight problem with your proposal: no Moldovan speaker ever asked for a Moldovan wikipedia. And, even more funny, there is no wikipedia user registered as Moldovan speaker (at any level) on meta.wiki, en.wiki, and ro.wiki. On mo.wiki, someone created the category, but it's void. I suggest you all go and look for yourselves.
So, aren't you trying to solve a non-problem?
You know, just because Mark Williamson cries something strong enough does not mean he is right. Unfortunately, it is easy to fall into the trap of thinking that Mark actually represents an endangered minority. The problem is that he is this minority. Alone. I asked him several times before to post a list of Moldovan supporters. Or at least one. But he avoided the question.
And there is a second problem. He is not really part of the minority he claims to protect. And this is the real problem -- the fact that he hijacked the name of an existing people in order to promote some personal political beliefs that hurt the actual people he is claiming to defend.
Yours, [[:en:Dpotop]], [[:ro:Dpotop]], [[:mo:Dpotop]]
Olve Utne olve.utne@gmail.com wrote: Hello everyone,
First of all: Don't worry -- this is my one and only posting on this topic.
The vote, while being clear in itself, has some VERY troublesome aspects to it. And it doesn't seem to address what ought to be the primary concern, namely to provide information to those Moldovan-speakers who read Cyrillic script better than Latin script.
With the risk of being called names by some (please don't), I make the following honest proposal:
Let the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia be locked *but accessible* for now.
Install a Latin--Cyrillic converter similar to the one on SR:WP on
RO:WP. It does NOT need to be perfect, but it should render the text REASONABLY intelligible in Cyrillic. It also (at least for now) needs to work only from Latin to Cyrillic, since the editors seem to work almost exclusively in Latin script.
- Make a little snippet on the main page of :ro: to note that one
can view this WP in Cyrillic for the benefit of people in Transdnistria and whoever else might prefer viewing the contents in Cyrillic.
- Then -- and ONLY then --, archive the Cyrillic version and make it
an automatic redirect to :ro:.
This will *respect the decision* made in the vote, while it also takes care of an important aspect which was left out of the process -- namely, making the information available to ALL Romanian-/Moldavian-speakers -- and especially those who may need such information the most...
Respectfully,
Olve Utne
(from the admin team on Nynorsk Wikipedia)
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
Oh, and I did post a list. You must've ignored it.
Mark
On 12/03/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
There is a slight problem with your proposal: no Moldovan speaker ever asked for a Moldovan wikipedia. And, even more funny, there is no wikipedia user registered as Moldovan speaker (at any level) on meta.wiki, en.wiki, and ro.wiki. On mo.wiki, someone created the category, but it's void. I suggest you all go and look for yourselves.
So, aren't you trying to solve a non-problem?
You know, just because Mark Williamson cries something strong enough does not mean he is right. Unfortunately, it is easy to fall into the trap of thinking that Mark actually represents an endangered minority. The problem is that he is this minority. Alone. I asked him several times before to post a list of Moldovan supporters. Or at least one. But he avoided the question.
And there is a second problem. He is not really part of the minority he claims to protect. And this is the real problem -- the fact that he hijacked the name of an existing people in order to promote some personal political beliefs that hurt the actual people he is claiming to defend.
Yours, [[:en:Dpotop]], [[:ro:Dpotop]], [[:mo:Dpotop]]
Olve Utne olve.utne@gmail.com wrote: Hello everyone,
First of all: Don't worry -- this is my one and only posting on this topic.
The vote, while being clear in itself, has some VERY troublesome aspects to it. And it doesn't seem to address what ought to be the primary concern, namely to provide information to those Moldovan-speakers who read Cyrillic script better than Latin script.
With the risk of being called names by some (please don't), I make the following honest proposal:
Let the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia be locked *but accessible* for now.
Install a Latin--Cyrillic converter similar to the one on SR:WP on
RO:WP. It does NOT need to be perfect, but it should render the text REASONABLY intelligible in Cyrillic. It also (at least for now) needs to work only from Latin to Cyrillic, since the editors seem to work almost exclusively in Latin script.
- Make a little snippet on the main page of :ro: to note that one
can view this WP in Cyrillic for the benefit of people in Transdnistria and whoever else might prefer viewing the contents in Cyrillic.
- Then -- and ONLY then --, archive the Cyrillic version and make it
an automatic redirect to :ro:.
This will *respect the decision* made in the vote, while it also takes care of an important aspect which was left out of the process -- namely, making the information available to ALL Romanian-/Moldavian-speakers -- and especially those who may need such information the most...
Respectfully,
Olve Utne
(from the admin team on Nynorsk Wikipedia)
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
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