Gerard is absolutely correct here. It may be the job of the WMF to create a record of all languages living and dead, but it is not the job of the WMF to create living languages from dead ones.
D
In a message dated 4/2/2008 1:58:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gerard.meijssen@gmail.com writes:
Hoi, You do not discover about a language when in the process you change it beyond recognition. The correct word for such an endeavour is called reconstruction. When we tell people we have a Wikipedia in a language and people turn to it in order to learn that language, we do them a disservice. This is quit against what the Wikimedia Foundation stands for because in this way we do not provide valid information. Thanks, GerardM
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on 4/2/08 2:58 PM, daniwo59@aol.com at daniwo59@aol.com wrote:
Gerard is absolutely correct here. It may be the job of the WMF to create a record of all languages living and dead, but it is not the job of the WMF to create living languages from dead ones.
D
In a message dated 4/2/2008 1:58:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gerard.meijssen@gmail.com writes:
Hoi, You do not discover about a language when in the process you change it beyond recognition. The correct word for such an endeavour is called reconstruction. When we tell people we have a Wikipedia in a language and people turn to it in order to learn that language, we do them a disservice. This is quit against what the Wikimedia Foundation stands for because in this way we do not provide valid information. Thanks, GerardM
BOTH of you, I am not talking about "changing" anything. I am not a believer in the premise that "observing an object, alters it". If that were true, in my profession, I would be considered a sorcerer :-). To change something you must act upon it. I am talking about creating new ways of looking at old things; and discovering things we never new about them before. And, BTW, a language never dies so long as at least two people are still using it. And, the idea of discouraging anyone from creating a project to study and to learn from something is incompressible to me.
Marc Riddell
BOTH of you, I am not talking about "changing" anything. I am not a believer in the premise that "observing an object, alters it". If that were true, in my profession, I would be considered a sorcerer :-). To change something you must act upon it. I am talking about creating new ways of looking at old things; and discovering things we never new about them before. And, BTW, a language never dies so long as at least two people are still using it. And, the idea of discouraging anyone from creating a project to study and to learn from something is incompressible to me.
It may be a worthwhile project, but it's not a worthwhile part of Wikipedia. Wikipedia is about making an encyclopaedia in order to inform people. It's not a linguistics project - the language is just there as a means of communication. If people want to study extinct languages, they are welcome to, but that's not what Wikipedia is about.
on 4/2/08 5:08 PM, Thomas Dalton at thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
BOTH of you, I am not talking about "changing" anything. I am not a believer in the premise that "observing an object, alters it". If that were true, in my profession, I would be considered a sorcerer :-). To change something you must act upon it. I am talking about creating new ways of looking at old things; and discovering things we never new about them before. And, BTW, a language never dies so long as at least two people are still using it. And, the idea of discouraging anyone from creating a project to study and to learn from something is incompressible to me.
It may be a worthwhile project, but it's not a worthwhile part of Wikipedia. Wikipedia is about making an encyclopaedia in order to inform people. It's not a linguistics project - the language is just there as a means of communication. If people want to study extinct languages, they are welcome to, but that's not what Wikipedia is about.
Thank you for this perspective, Thomas - one of many.
The facts of something can have very different appearances depending on the angle of sight - what's most important is the dialogue those different angles produce.
Marc
Too bad for you, their Wikipedia already exists. What you are doing is bordering on harassment.
On 02/04/2008, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
BOTH of you, I am not talking about "changing" anything. I am not a believer in the premise that "observing an object, alters it". If that were true, in my profession, I would be considered a sorcerer :-). To change something you must act upon it. I am talking about creating new ways of looking at old things; and discovering things we never new about them before. And, BTW, a language never dies so long as at least two people are still using it. And, the idea of discouraging anyone from creating a project to study and to learn from something is incompressible to me.
It may be a worthwhile project, but it's not a worthwhile part of Wikipedia. Wikipedia is about making an encyclopaedia in order to inform people. It's not a linguistics project - the language is just there as a means of communication. If people want to study extinct languages, they are welcome to, but that's not what Wikipedia is about.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On 03/04/2008, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Too bad for you, their Wikipedia already exists. What you are doing is bordering on harassment.
Now you're just being melodramatic. I'm giving my opinion on a public mailing list in response to an open request for opinions. How is that harassment?
Harassment is a criminal offence. I do not appreciate nonsensical accusations that I am bordering on criminality and request you withdraw the accusation.
Criminal harassment is one specific type of harassment. Harassing somebody is not necessarily criminal.
By telling someone they are wasting their time and suggesting they stop work on a project they have every right to work on, that is how you are doing it.
Mark
On 03/04/2008, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
On 03/04/2008, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Too bad for you, their Wikipedia already exists. What you are doing is bordering on harassment.
Now you're just being melodramatic. I'm giving my opinion on a public mailing list in response to an open request for opinions. How is that harassment?
Harassment is a criminal offence. I do not appreciate nonsensical accusations that I am bordering on criminality and request you withdraw the accusation.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On 03/04/2008, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Criminal harassment is one specific type of harassment. Harassing somebody is not necessarily criminal.
By telling someone they are wasting their time and suggesting they stop work on a project they have every right to work on, that is how you are doing it.
I think you're getting confused between "harassment" and "advice". Just because you don't like the advice doesn't make giving it harassment. I repeat my request that you withdraw the accusation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/harassment
1. to disturb persistently; torment, as with troubles or cares; bother continually; pester; persecute.
There you go. It is my belief that you are engaging in that type of activity. I repeat that I was not using "harass" in a legalistic sense, and that I am not making any sort of criminal accusation against you. I see your request, and I have chosen not to comply.
Mark
On 03/04/2008, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
On 03/04/2008, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Criminal harassment is one specific type of harassment. Harassing somebody is not necessarily criminal.
By telling someone they are wasting their time and suggesting they stop work on a project they have every right to work on, that is how you are doing it.
I think you're getting confused between "harassment" and "advice". Just because you don't like the advice doesn't make giving it harassment. I repeat my request that you withdraw the accusation.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On 03/04/2008, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Criminal harassment is one specific type of harassment. Harassing somebody is not necessarily criminal.
By telling someone they are wasting their time and suggesting they stop work on a project they have every right to work on, that is how you are doing it.
on 4/3/08 4:16 PM, Thomas Dalton at thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
I think you're getting confused between "harassment" and "advice". Just because you don't like the advice doesn't make giving it harassment. I repeat my request that you withdraw the accusation.
You are becoming tiresome, Thomas. And your request, in this instance, is absurd. I suggest that you do what a student is supposed to do the majority of the time: listen.
Marc Riddell
Hoi, Their only "right" can be found in the fact that these projects exists. New projects in Old English or Gothic are unlikely to find approval.
It is not relevant that people are wasting their time, this is their option. What is more relevant is that these projects do not conform to what the WMF would do and should do. Thanks, GerardM
On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 10:09 PM, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Criminal harassment is one specific type of harassment. Harassing somebody is not necessarily criminal.
By telling someone they are wasting their time and suggesting they stop work on a project they have every right to work on, that is how you are doing it.
Mark
On 03/04/2008, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
On 03/04/2008, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Too bad for you, their Wikipedia already exists. What you are doing
is
bordering on harassment.
Now you're just being melodramatic. I'm giving my opinion on a public mailing list in response to an open request for opinions. How is that harassment?
Harassment is a criminal offence. I do not appreciate nonsensical accusations that I am bordering on criminality and request you withdraw the accusation.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
on 4/3/08 4:20 PM, Gerard Meijssen at gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Their only "right" can be found in the fact that these projects exists. New projects in Old English or Gothic are unlikely to find approval.
It is not relevant that people are wasting their time, this is their option. What is more relevant is that these projects do not conform to what the WMF would do and should do. Thanks, GerardM
Gerard,
This is clearly your opinion - one of many. The problem is the WMF, itself, doesn't know right now what it would or should do.
Marc Riddell
Hoi, These projects exist. They will not be reconsidered as a consequence of the existing language policy. When they were to be reconsidered using the existing language policy, these projects would be denied.
Where is my opinion in this ? Thanks, GerardM
On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 10:45 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net wrote:
on 4/3/08 4:20 PM, Gerard Meijssen at gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Their only "right" can be found in the fact that these projects exists.
New
projects in Old English or Gothic are unlikely to find approval.
It is not relevant that people are wasting their time, this is their
option.
What is more relevant is that these projects do not conform to what the
WMF
would do and should do. Thanks, GerardM
Gerard,
This is clearly your opinion - one of many. The problem is the WMF, itself, doesn't know right now what it would or should do.
Marc Riddell
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wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org