Anthere wrote:

I looked at their review process... I do not see how it could work... Eh, it reminds me of Nupedia !

I agree, but it's different from Nupedia in that they've got tons more resources than Nupedia did. Still, I don't see encarta becoming the largest encyclopedia in the world, since there is little reason for people to contribute. It doesn't even seem like they give attribution (do they? If so, where?).

I don't think that there will be dedicated editors like there are on Wikipedia, and like there were on Nupedia, since encarta is completely for profit- they're in it for the money and NOT for providing free access to "the sum of all human knowledge." There might be some casual editors who, upon finding something that wasn't previously there, will submit it (eg. if somebody died). There is little reason I see for anybody going on the site for the purpose of improving it.

While it will help keep the encyclopedia more up-to-date, I doubt it will ever become nearly as popular as Wikipedia is.

Blog: http://frazzydee.ca

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Tony Sidaway a écrit:

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Magnus Manske said:

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You can mow add to Encarta articles online. After a review by the M$ staff, your edit may be added to the Encarta.

That's so great about Microsoft - they alway invent new things! :-)

Searched Encarta for 'autofellatio'

No results were found for your search in Encarta.

---

Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

David Gerard wrote:

Faraaz Damji (frazzydee@spymac.com) [050414 08:08]:

...

I don't think that there will be dedicated editors like there are on Wikipedia, and like there were on Nupedia, since encarta is completely for profit- they're in it for the money and NOT for providing free access to "the sum of all human knowledge." There might be some casual editors who, upon finding something that wasn't previously there, will submit it (eg. if somebody died). There is little reason I see for anybody going on the site for the purpose of improving it.

It might keep the POV-pushers occupied. Then maybe they'll bother us less. (I can only hope.)

[[Template:Encarta]] (to be placed on User_talk: pages)

Dear contributor,

Wikipedia is a two-bit piece of &@!#. Nobody reads it. Since you know *the truth* about {{{1}}}, please stop wasting your time here. Try [[Encarta Wiki]] instead. Thanks, ~~~~

Oh, and:

[[Template:Uncyclopedia]] (to be placed on User_talk: pages)

Dear contributor,

Since Wikipedians are far too stupid to understand the breeding habits of dust bunnies, I suggest you try [[Uncyclopedia]] instead. The editors there will be a lot more receptive to your vast wealth of knowledge. Thanks, ~~~~

I disagree. I've found most people to be kind and helpful. Something like Wikipedia tends to draw people of a different intellectual and moral level than most other environments, and I think that a lot of editors have come to value that. If you think that there are serious problems with Wikipedia, there's nothing stopping you from starting another wiki encyclopedia with Wikipedia's content since everything is GFDL'd.

And the way encarta works, it doesn't look like it'll form a strong community like there is at Wikipedia. Sure there are a couple of people who've ticked me off here, but you're bound to not get along with some people in a place with hundreds of thousands of people.

-- Blog: http://frazzydee.ca

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Stirling Newberry wrote:

On Apr 13, 2005, at 6:08 PM, Faraaz Damji wrote:

...

Anthere wrote:

...

I looked at their review process... I do not see how it could work... Eh, it reminds me of Nupedia !

I agree, but it's different from Nupedia in that they've got tons more resources than Nupedia did. Still, I don't see encarta becoming the largest encyclopedia in the world, since there is little reason for people to contribute. It doesn't even seem like they give attribution (do they? If so, where?).

I don't think that there will be dedicated editors like there are on Wikipedia, and like there were on Nupedia, since encarta is completely for profit- they're in it for the money and NOT for providing free access to "the sum of all human knowledge." There might be some casual editors who, upon finding something that wasn't previously there, will submit it (eg. if somebody died). There is little reason I see for anybody going on the site for the purpose of improving it.

While it will help keep the encyclopedia more up-to-date, I doubt it will ever become nearly as popular as Wikipedia is.

Blog: http://frazzydee.ca

Wikipedia is an increasingly hostile environment. Don't dismiss alternate venues because the wave is cresting on wikipedia.

---

Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

Stirling Newberry wrote:

On Apr 14, 2005, at 7:38 AM, Faraaz Damji wrote:

...

I disagree. I've found most people to be kind and helpful. Something like Wikipedia tends to draw people of a different intellectual and moral level than most other environments, and I think that a lot of editors have come to value that. If you think that there are serious problems with Wikipedia, there's nothing stopping you from starting another wiki encyclopedia with Wikipedia's content since everything is GFDL'd.

Of course the people who are left are happy, it is selection in action. However, in about 2 years when growth rates on en have flattened off it will be very visible, the pove growth curve will have long since outstripped the wikipedian growth curve. At that point it will be noticeable to the outside world and it will be your competition that notices it. Right now, of course, everyone is drunk on growth rates and ever argument is ended by "I'm happy" and "look how fast we are growing, clearly people are happy". This has happened before to numerous internet communities - intoxication on the flood of eyeballs.

Amen. For a serious encyclopedia, it should be just as important to track the knowledge level of the editing, and my unscientific observation is that expert-level participation has been flat at best, even though the number of editors has been increasing. For instance, we seem to have averaged only about one serious ichthyology active at any one time during the past two years. So we get a situation where there is no one writing about fish physiology, but hey, we have a "shark template".

I don't have anything against obscure football clubs or train stations, and have added my own share of trivia, but I could easily see experts flocking to improve Encarta because the process is friendlier to them, while WP becomes known as the preserve of soccer hooligans and trainspotters. :-)

Stan

Wikipedia is an increasingly hostile environment. Don't dismiss alternate venues because the wave is cresting on wikipedia.

For me, the important question is: how do we prevent Wikipedia from becoming an "increasingly hostile environment".

My own view is that we should trust the ArbCom to rid us more quickly of poisonous personalities. Of course this is non-trivial, etc. But we really do put up with an astounding amount of absurd behavior in the name of openness.

--Jimbo

I think that the English Wikipedia is already a very hostile environment, due in no small part to certain gung-ho admins who do not assume good faith on the part of newbies.

When I first came here, I could've vandalised 40 pages in a row and somebody would've sent me a nice warning message, welcoming me to Wikipedia in the process and encouraging me to log in. Not that I did that, but the environment at that time was such that such a thing doesn't seem unbelievable.

People were always at least somewhat nice to each other.

But now, if anybody asks any question about an edit, you (meaning everybody, or at least many people if not most) just tell them "I am right. Shut up and bugger off." (not exactly; you give them a somewhat more polite response but give them the impression that you are not willing to have an academic discussion about it).

It's especially harmful when people say "I'm reverting this." or "Your changes are unacceptable." or "Leave this page alone.", or other things that make them sound like a parent scolding their child (and in many cases, it gets more abusive).

There is too much voting and too little simple attempts to reach a consensus, nobody is willing to compromise, and in addition to such helpful-but-harmful utilities as mediators, we now have the ArbCom (in my view, while they have help weed some bad people out, they have also caused a lot of trouble, not intentionally though), bureaucrats (a mean, pompous, or abusive bureaucrat is 10 times worse than a bad sysop), and worst of all the AMA (in my view, that organisation should be forcefully disbanded and anybody who tries to start it up again should be shot - note that I personally have not made use of them, nor have I had a dispute with anybody that did, but so far as I can tell they just make things worse for everybody). I think quickpolls were better. Sure, they were tantamount to mob rule, but that was that and it was less toxic to the community, at least in my view.

People do not really think about proposals or ideas that they don't like a whole lot - they just say "no" without thinking about it or reading further. There are few moderates anymore. Everybody believes that their POV is NPOV, or else their "NPOV" is at least somewhat POV.

Every case the ArbCom handles, every person to seek an advocate, every post to a talkpage that isn't nice and polite, all of this contributes to sending the en.wikipedia community from the purgatory it's in now to the residence of one Ms Helen A. Hampbaskytt.

Is there anything that can be done to keep the community out of the paws of vile Ms Hampbaskytt?

I honestly don't know. Maybe we should create a new Wikipedia for a language called "enGlish" but that's really the same as English, and ban anybody who is anything but nice and courteous.

Mark

On 4/14/05, Jimmy Wales jwales@wikia.com wrote:

...

Wikipedia is an increasingly hostile environment. Don't dismiss alternate venues because the wave is cresting on wikipedia.

For me, the important question is: how do we prevent Wikipedia from becoming an "increasingly hostile environment".

My own view is that we should trust the ArbCom to rid us more quickly of poisonous personalities. Of course this is non-trivial, etc. But we really do put up with an astounding amount of absurd behavior in the name of openness.

--Jimbo

---

Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

On 4/17/05, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:

...

we really do put up with an astounding amount of absurd behavior in the name of openness.

--Jimbo

Hmmmm. This is not the only point. There is an increasing anonymity in big communities. Not knowing an editor means you are not necessarily behaving as gently or approaching a conflict so easily.

I think this could be improved by providing new means for editors to get to know others, in particular those contributing in other areas. Ideas such as the facebook have certainly helped.

Indeed. Some basic social-software features that let users describe themselves and set up networks of friends and project-collaborators, and let others view those connections, would actually have a *purpose* on a project like Wikipedia, just as the social aspects of wiki come to have a real purpose beyond social experimenting and procrastination.

On 4/19/05, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:

On 4/19/05, Sj 2.718281828@gmail.com wrote:

...

Indeed. Some basic social-software features that let users describe themselves and set up networks of friends and project-collaborators, and let others view those connections, would actually have a *purpose* on a project like Wikipedia, just as the social aspects of wiki come to have a real purpose beyond social experimenting and procrastination.

Perhaps we could setup a section of the site where each user could write about themselves, perhaps their hobbies or profession, maybe even include a picture... In this space they could create subpages, and hyperlinks going to other users they know or work with.. the ability to socially network.. areas for discussing various special interests, information about projects they are working on.... Hmmmmm.. Nah, it would never work. ;)

When I say "networks" and "connections" I mean something that supports viewing actual networks and connection graphs or quickly aggregated data from some natural subnetwork, like "all people within 2 connections from me" or "everyone working with james on a project who is also working with me on a project" ; or an automatic list of "everyone who shares these hobbies/locations" rather than having to manually update and search a hundred different lists when you want to find that information.

Tony Sidaway wrote:

It is? I'm sorry I didn't read the announcement, I was too busy doing RC patrol.

Well, it's just an idea right now, but maybe the original poster was talking about [[Wikipedia:Baseline revision]]s?

Blog: http://frazzydee.ca

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Alphax wrote:

Timwi wrote:

...

Magnus Manske wrote:

...

You can mow add to Encarta articles online. After a review by the M$ staff, your edit may be added to the Encarta.

I don't believe that the purpose of adding this feature was to allow users to improve Encarta. Though of course that's what everyone thinks.

I do believe that they added this feature due to a growing public awareness of Wikipedia, and in an effort to retain a certain amount of market share. I believe that they are explicitly trying to reduce faith in Wikipedia or wiki projects in general, thereby implicitly increasing faith in proprietary encyclopedias (or strengthening the superior faith that already exists).

At the same time, they are probably trying to show that they are "ahead" of other proprietary encyclopedias by being the first to introduce a significant feature, and that they are more customer-oriented by making it look like they allow feedback to reach them.

That's what I think, Timwi

Ah, but only one way to test it....

Make a contribution. Suitably minor, of course, so that you can write it off as a public domain minor edit.

A couple of attempts at contributing (perfectly reasonable) test edits to Encarta have resulted in nothing at all happening to the articles in question. I'm not impressed. The whole experience is extraordinarily lacking in incentive for Encarta contributors, who will effectively see a brick wall, if my experience is anything to go by. Combined with the fact that it will dawn on them that all they are doing is enriching Microsoft, with nothing back in return, this is unlikely to gain a loyal user community.

Has anyone observed _any_ Encarta user edits actually becoming visible?

-- Neil

On 4/15/05, Timwi timwi@gmx.net wrote:

...

The whole experience is extraordinarily lacking in incentive for Encarta contributors, who will effectively see a brick wall, if my experience is anything to go by.

I'm afraid this sounds a lot like bias from your experience with Wikipedia. You are used to your edits appearing immediately, so in comparison to that, Encarta naturally feels like a "brick wall". It is doubtful that the same kind of feeling will be experienced by casual users who are unfamiliar with "open-content encyclopedias that post their users' edits immediately".

Timwi, certainly you can see why users will not get that "rush" that Wikipedia is famous for and gets people hooked. Encarta Feedback doesn't inspire the same sense of reward of a commons-based peer production site like WP. So what type of gratification does it provide?

This, in turn, exhibits your anti-Microsoft sentiment. Most casual users are not like that and view Microsoft as neutral or even friendly, and even if it occurs to them that they will be enriching Microsoft, they are unlikely to see anything wrong with it. As for "getting something back in return", they do, and it's the same thing you get on Wikipedia: some sort of satisfaction that you have helped improve something. I can even imagine that most will feel it to be more "worth it" to help Encarta because it feels somehow more important or more substantial or, dare I say it, more accurate.

You don't have to be MS-hostile to have those feelings. Problem is, in [[Coase's Penguin]], Yochai Benkler identified the problem as the [[jalt]], or the jealousy/altruism factor. Why should folks donate their own free time and effort to enrich the pockets of not only a corporation, but perhaps one of the most dominant and profitable ones in the history of American business, with little to no reward for themselves?

If Encarta had any of the following features or incentives, it might be a more balanced relationship and provide a social or hedonic reward. - Notification of acceptance of edits - Attribution/credit for contributor edits - Community site for discussing articles - Free Encarta subscription after ''n'' number of accepted contributions

They currently do not do any of them.

The five stages of grief (denial, anger, bargaining, depression and, acceptance) have been boiled down into two for Microsoft - "embrace and extend."

They've officially embraced a small part of the wiki model. Stay tuned for the "extend." But if their sentiment about [[CBPP]] is anything like their treatment of open source software, this will be a half-hearted "me too" approach.

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)

FYI, something I just found on the Encarta Feedback FAQ, that might be of interest:

--- How are my suggested edits researched?

Graduate students at the University of Washington Information School are fact-checking all proposed changes to Encarta. They are trained in research and passionate about corroborating facts. Stay tuned for possible plans to expand our pool of researchers to the Encarta community.

---

Interestingly, donors to the school include: Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation Corbis Corporation Microsoft Corporation

http://www.ischool.washington.edu/events/docs/newsletter-fall-04.pdf

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)

"Andrew Lih" andrew.lih@gmail.com wrote in message news:2ed171fb05041420024e2114eb@mail.gmail.com...

FYI, something I just found on the Encarta Feedback FAQ, that might be of interest:

---

How are my suggested edits researched?

Graduate students at the University of Washington Information School are fact-checking all proposed changes to Encarta. They are trained in research and passionate about corroborating facts. Stay tuned for possible plans to expand our pool of researchers to the Encarta community.

Makes you wonder where *they* do their research.

"Andrew Lih" andrew.lih@gmail.com wrote in message news:2ed171fb05041420024e2114eb@mail.gmail.com...

...

FYI, something I just found on the Encarta Feedback FAQ, that might be of interest:

---

How are my suggested edits researched?

Graduate students at the University of Washington Information School are fact-checking all proposed changes to Encarta. They are trained in research and passionate about corroborating facts. Stay tuned for possible plans to expand our pool of researchers to the Encarta community.

Makes you wonder where *they* do their research.

Phil

And /where/ they check it. I am a student myself, and I check virtually everything on Wikipedia, even things concerning my study :-) .

Wouter

_________________________________________________________________ Speel online games via MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/

Jimmy Wales wrote:

Andrew Lih wrote:

...

Graduate students at the University of Washington Information School are fact-checking all proposed changes to Encarta. They are trained in research and passionate about corroborating facts. Stay tuned for possible plans to expand our pool of researchers to the Encarta community.

Microsoft has extended an invitation for me to come and give a talk in Redmond. I'll also see if I can give a talk at the University of Washington Information School. It would be interesting to chat with these graduate students, I think, to learn more about their experience.

This could be a good opportunity for a Seattle meetup. That would draw Wikipedians from Oregon, Washington and British Columbia.

Ec

On 4/15/05, Jimmy Wales jwales@wikia.com wrote:

Andrew Lih wrote:

...

FYI, something I just found on the Encarta Feedback FAQ, that might be of interest:

---

How are my suggested edits researched?

Graduate students at the University of Washington Information School are fact-checking all proposed changes to Encarta. They are trained in

Microsoft has extended an invitation for me to come and give a talk in Redmond. I'll also see if I can give a talk at the University of Washington Information School. It would be interesting to chat with these graduate students, I think, to learn more about their experience.

Neat. Is there a date set?

Of course there are lots of other information schools out there; perhaps none as focused as this one; but it would be interesting to compare their curriculum with that of other information management programs teach. I would love to think that this school is going to be on the forefront of founding a true study of information itself (generation, propagation, creativity, evolution, analysis & verification), independent of computers and the unfortunately named field of "information technology."

+sj+

Fred Bauder said:

I contributed the word "Wiki" to the collins dictionary site and supposedly am to be given credit for discovering the word.

Fred

In honor of this discovery, I decree that the word shall be renamed to "Fredi". Thus Wikipedia becomes Fredipedia.

Rowan Collins wrote:

Of course, I will then claim the credit for *that* word, in the hope that someone will come up with an appropriate portmanteau involving "Rowan" or "IMSoP"...

Rowpedia!

Appropriately describes the atmosphere on the talk pages of some controversial articles.

Stuart, do you know of a place to get free content movie information? There are lots of older movies we have nothing on; it would be useful to snarf up an old database that's public domain.

On 4/15/05, Stuart Orford sjorford@gmail.com wrote:

I used to contribute to the [[Internet Movie Database]] - I was hovering around the top 100 contributors level, which would have got

Stuart Orford wrote:

I used to contribute to the [[Internet Movie Database]]

Very good example -- I can relate to your experiences, and I fully agree.

But there is no on-going controversy about movie databases in the way there is about encyclopedias. It seems to be a deeply-entrenched belief in people that controlled expert review is the only way information can be accurate (this applies to IMDb as well as encyclopedias), but they additionally perceive the accuracy of an encyclopedia as being of paramount importance (the word "encyclopedia" seems to ring this particular bell in many people). Hence everybody's stereotypical reaction when they first hear of Wikipedia, "That'll never work!".

Also, to make this clear: I do not believe that Encarta will attract more contributors than Wikipedia. Quite to the contrary. What I'm talking about is the general public view of the resulting encyclopedia. For a long time, it has been one of Wikipedia's selling points to say, "If you find a mistake you can correct it yourself!" Now, the general reply to that will be, "Yawn. You can do that with Encarta too."

Only about 20 editors process millions of contributions a year, giving no feedback, and sometimes changing edits in seemingly arbitrary ways.

Heh. I know what you mean. But I don't think the editors "change edits in arbitrary ways" -- I think it's more likely that their processing of the information takes *even* longer than you think, and the information you suggested was actually suggested by someone else long before you, and they posted his version. :)

It was frustrating, as you can tell. IMDb may be the most repected movie database, but as a community it's hell, and I don't expect Encarta to be much better. Public contribution and closing editing doesn't scale.

I completely agree. But the "community factor" doesn't help the reputation outside the community.

Timwi