The whole reason this is so ridiculous is that you are threatening to remove your status simply b/c of this one thing. Mark On 06/11/05, Milos Rancic <millosh(a)mutualaid.org> wrote: -- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin

Yes, but I'm not sure it's relevant. ... And I would say you are just as dangerous. You seek to further your anti-Zlatiborian agenda by attacking the Zlatiborian cause and pretending that the glorious Zlatiborian language doesn't even exist! "Without any knowledge about situation"... that sounds like somebody who's being bitter because I disagree with them. Did you evaluate *all* of the possibilities? Is it really reasonable to assume that, just because I support the creation of a Zlatiborian Wikipedia, that I have 0 knowledge about the situation? After all, Danka, SellackAlex, and others supported it... does that mean they have 0 knowledge?? Yes, and we provided huge amounts of detail. There are articles we provided which explain it even further. All you said was things like "Zlatiborian is the same as Serbian" or "Zlatiborian is a dialect" or whatever. No detailed explanations or demonstrations... so far, the Zlatiborians have demonstrated their claims more than you have demonstrated yours. Not only did they show some key differences between Zlatiborian and Serbian, but they started a test Wikipedia in their beautiful language. They have provided translations to me from Serbian, from which I can see the differences and confirm that Zlatiborian is indeed different to Serbian. Now, if you expect me to believe what you're saying, you need to demonstrate your case further, which so far you have not done whatsoever. No, you're wrong. The difference is that even people WITHIN China has voted "for" the creation. The vast majority of voters still support a Cantonese Wikipedia. This would not happen for a hoax. Some Nigerian villages *do* have their own languages. Ten names for one language... that's strange, you don't create different WPs for names. Even if you consider Zlatiborian an *accent*, as some Serbian nationalist extremists and other anti-Zlatiborists seem to, it is more than a "name" for Serbian. Uhh... perhaps it would be better to consider these actions if and when a Zlatiborian Wikipedia is created, rather than saying "OMG people are discussing it!!! And the majority have voted against!!! The sky is falling!!! FEAR! ABORT MISSION!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHH" Uhh... it seems to me like it is. Now, if the majority votes against a ZB.WP in the end, there is absolutely 0 reason for you to continue with this action. Sure, if the majority votes *for* it, you may lose all hope in humanity. Yes, and Walter van Kalken is a sysop on the Thai WP. Yet, Dutch is not a dialect of Thai... being a B.C or S.O on a Wikipedia, does not mean it's your native language. Mark -- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin

I thought that this issue is serious, but when I read Mark's edit, I realized that Djordje made of Mark a real, big fool. Djordje made my day :) Mark is responding to 17 year old guy who is far of any kind of political position: *You're the worst of the lot. My Zlatiborian brothers will surely find their glorious homeland free from the shackles of Serbian oppression when they stage a revolution against your long occupation, and the Zlatiborian language and culture will finally have a chance to be promoted internationally without fear of punishment by cruel Serbian nationalists. You think that you can claim that just because I am not a Serbian, I know nothing about this issue. Well, I have seen images of Zlatibor on television, and I read all about the Serbian occupation. I have a bumper sticker that says "Free Zlatibor Now! Boycott Serbia!", and I own some books on Zlatiborian language. My deepest hope is that after the Serbian tyranny ends, I may travel to Zlatibor and witness the beauty firsthand. That is, unless you and your Serbian nationalist goons destroy it first. --Node ue 19:53, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

On 11/7/05, Gerrit Holl <gerrit(a)nl.linux.org> wrote: Mark is highly irresponsible person (in shorter: fool). And this kind of behaviour is accepted here. (Also, when someone calls me as "Serbian nationalist" while talking about one hoax, this is personal attack, too.) After a couple of months of trying to have good faith in communication with Mark, I am so tired. Zlatiborian speech (not even dialect!) is in the center of linguistic area which is basis for standard Serbian language. Only old people there are Iyekavians. The most of them are Ekavians (while Djordje said different!). In this moment, their pronounce is the only standard pronounce (they have full system of accents, unlike people from Belgrade, for example).

Example to illustrate a principle. Milos tried to demonstrate that Djordje's native language must be Serbian because he is a bureaucrat at the Serbian Wikipedia, which is obviously pure Wednesday*. Mark *See Juanes -- La Camisa Negra. On 06/11/05, Walter van Kalken <walter(a)vankalken.net> wrote: -- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin

On 11/7/05, Angela <beesley(a)gmail.com> wrote: I am afraid that this is not exception, but the rule. People have to waste a lot of time in explaining that something is a hoax. This means that there is urgent need for the Wikim/pedian body which would have people educated in linguistics, anthropology, sociology. Mark Williamson maybe has good intentions (maybe sometime he would be right about some repression and some urging for new Wikipedia...), but I am really afraid of political decisions which are based on such kind of propaganda. Note that we are talking here about well known language area. Again, what about not-so-well -known language areas? Mark made a lot of noise. And, before I started to waste my time on Zlatiborian once again, more people was for opening Zlatiborian Wikipedia. Also, when I see that Mark said to some of Serbian Wikipedians that they are "nationalists", that I have "my Serbian nationalist crew" (note, about one hoax!) -- I think that no one Serbian Wikipedian shouldn't vote on this poll. (As well as I would insist that we don't vote about such kind of hoaxes.) And without people from sr: this hoax would pass. And we (on sr:) didn't have the community one year and half before. And what about other similar situations?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Mark Williamson wrote: <snip> <snip> I would like to point out that this is the same hysterical, nonsensical drivel that Mark was spouting on #wikipedia yesterday... Don't worry Mark, the men in black helicopters will be here shortly. - -- Alphax | /"\ Encrypted Email Preferred | \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613 | X Against HTML email & vCards http://tinyurl.com/cc9up | / \

On 11/8/05, Mark Williamson &lt;node.ue(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Mark, When the matter goes as far as Milos saying that the Serbian and Montenegro Chapter does not want to be part of Wikimedia, I think you should really try to evaluate what damage you have caused. I am going to ask you to finally make your point and stop playing around. I have reread this whole thread and am now convinced this is all a hoax. Great. Very funny. Can you please make your point and let us be finished with this whole thing? I am also going to ask you to consider one thing, you the paragon of forgotten languages and languages in general. You seem to have forgotten one very important thing. You have been leading this whole hoax in English, using irony and double-meanings, with emphasis and great sentences. But you are dealing with people (myself included) who are not native English speakers. And who, as you may have noticed, have failed to see the irony and have taken the matter at heart. In short, you have been using them. As a non-native English speaker, and yet someone who strives to master the language, I am probably best placed to say how the most difficult thing to catch in a language is humour. And how when humour is lost on someone and you see it drift in seriousness, you should just hold you hand up and say "stop! I was joking". Hurting feelings and making fun of people because they don't speak your language is about the worst thing I can see happening in this supposedly "multicultural" community. Most of us are making efforts to address you in a language you master, you have not made that effort. Not even one little bit. I feel this is not only inconsiderate, but also plain nasty. On another note, I am sorry to tell you that you have, on top of playing with people's feelings, failed to make your point. At least, *I* have failed to see where you were leading. Blame it on my non-English-speaker-ness, or whatever else suits your funny self. But hey, target missed. Game over. I will add just one thing. You and all of the other native English speakers who played along and never tried to clear things up should really once try and put themselves in our shoes. Once. Just once. I believe it would help. Really. Cheers, Delphine -- ~notafish

As a non native Thai speaker, but performing comedy in one of Thailands top comedy groups everyday on stage and on TV, I totally agree with Delphine. Everyday I walk into this barrier and try to climb it. The succesrate differs from day to day. Waht is humour in one country/culture is totally not understandable not translatable in another language. Same goes for double and ironic phrases. By now I can understand quite a few of it in Thai ..... but I cannot translate them into English or even my native tongue ... Dutch. Same goes the other way around. Double meanings/humour in Dutch is very difficult te translate into, or explain to Thais. These kind of things are very culturally bounded. Even between languages that are close. Node you are damaging a lot of things with what you are doing now and with what you have done in the past. Milos please let not one culturally ignorant person stop you from doing what you intended to do. Walter/Waerth

He's just disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point (that having separate Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian Wikipedias is as silly as having a Zlatiborian one). -- Ausir Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia http://pl.wikipedia.org