Here are some conclusions according to recent events (questionable reliability of Wikimedian projects) and to meeting of the part of members of Initiative for Wikimedia Serbia and Montegro:
1. As the part of Wikimedian community supports hoaxes (i.e. "Zlatiborian language") we are considered that such cases (not only related to Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian languages area) can make completely damage to relevancy of Wikimedia and her projects.
2. We completely understand that Wikimedian projects are not only WMF Board's projects, but the projects of Wikimedian community. According to that, we worry that recent events are not isolated cases, but the important rule in Wikimedian community. Because of that we understand that our involvement, as organization in the future, in Wikimedian project assumes that we support such kinds of scientific and social irresponsibilities. And we are not ready to do that.
3. Only because of the fact that our meeting was just the meeting of the part of Initiative for WM SCG, we didn't make any decision. As we would have Founding Assembly in two weeks, as our first meeting with full number of members from now, we would make decision then.
4. Decisions can be: (1) We would a "full" local chapter (i.e., like German Chapter is) with the name "Wikimedia Serbia and Montenegro" or (2) we would not be a "full" local chapter, but only a friendly organization which can behave like an Wikimedian local chapter (with different name then "Wikimedia Serbia and Montenegro").
Oh, come on, that is ridiculous.
It's not as if the Board voted to accept a Zlatiborian Wikipedia.
Just because there is a proposal, and a handful of people support it, that's a really bad reason to threaten such a thing.
And don't tell me this isn't a threat -- it very clearly is. You're hoping that by doing this, somebody "official" will get worried and intervene re: Zlatiborian.
That's very... well, it's not a nice tactic.
If you guys decide not to participate in Wikimedia, then perhaps you should remove your votes from Requests_for_new_languages? You can't have it both ways, man.
Mark
On 06/11/05, Milos Rancic millosh@mutualaid.org wrote:
Here are some conclusions according to recent events (questionable reliability of Wikimedian projects) and to meeting of the part of members of Initiative for Wikimedia Serbia and Montegro:
- As the part of Wikimedian community supports hoaxes (i.e.
"Zlatiborian language") we are considered that such cases (not only related to Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian languages area) can make completely damage to relevancy of Wikimedia and her projects.
- We completely understand that Wikimedian projects are not only WMF
Board's projects, but the projects of Wikimedian community. According to that, we worry that recent events are not isolated cases, but the important rule in Wikimedian community. Because of that we understand that our involvement, as organization in the future, in Wikimedian project assumes that we support such kinds of scientific and social irresponsibilities. And we are not ready to do that.
- Only because of the fact that our meeting was just the meeting of
the part of Initiative for WM SCG, we didn't make any decision. As we would have Founding Assembly in two weeks, as our first meeting with full number of members from now, we would make decision then.
- Decisions can be: (1) We would a "full" local chapter (i.e., like
German Chapter is) with the name "Wikimedia Serbia and Montenegro" or (2) we would not be a "full" local chapter, but only a friendly organization which can behave like an Wikimedian local chapter (with different name then "Wikimedia Serbia and Montenegro"). _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
Mark, please read what Djordje wrote today on Serbian vilage pump: http://sr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%...
If you don't know Serbian (nor "Zlatiborian"), I am sure that you can find someone to translate it.
On 11/7/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Oh, come on, that is ridiculous.
It's not as if the Board voted to accept a Zlatiborian Wikipedia.
No, we understand it. This is the community decision and we are worry about the future of such proposals and possible accepting of them.
Just because there is a proposal, and a handful of people support it, that's a really bad reason to threaten such a thing.
And don't tell me this isn't a threat -- it very clearly is. You're hoping that by doing this, somebody "official" will get worried and intervene re: Zlatiborian.
That's very... well, it's not a nice tactic.
No, we started some process and it is not easy to stop it. Almost for sure we would not be officially related with other local chapters and WMF.
If you guys decide not to participate in Wikimedia, then perhaps you should remove your votes from Requests_for_new_languages? You can't have it both ways, man.
We would continue to work on Wikipedia, this is not the issue. As Wikipedians, we have the right to vote about it.
But, you are right in some way. We would talk about this voting soon and maybe remove our votes. There is no sense to tolerate insults from you and similar people. But, this is WikiPedian decision and this not related to local chapter issues.
The whole reason this is so ridiculous is that you are threatening to remove your status simply b/c of this one thing.
Mark
On 06/11/05, Milos Rancic millosh@mutualaid.org wrote:
Mark, please read what Djordje wrote today on Serbian vilage pump: http://sr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%...
If you don't know Serbian (nor "Zlatiborian"), I am sure that you can find someone to translate it.
On 11/7/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Oh, come on, that is ridiculous.
It's not as if the Board voted to accept a Zlatiborian Wikipedia.
No, we understand it. This is the community decision and we are worry about the future of such proposals and possible accepting of them.
Just because there is a proposal, and a handful of people support it, that's a really bad reason to threaten such a thing.
And don't tell me this isn't a threat -- it very clearly is. You're hoping that by doing this, somebody "official" will get worried and intervene re: Zlatiborian.
That's very... well, it's not a nice tactic.
No, we started some process and it is not easy to stop it. Almost for sure we would not be officially related with other local chapters and WMF.
If you guys decide not to participate in Wikimedia, then perhaps you should remove your votes from Requests_for_new_languages? You can't have it both ways, man.
We would continue to work on Wikipedia, this is not the issue. As Wikipedians, we have the right to vote about it.
But, you are right in some way. We would talk about this voting soon and maybe remove our votes. There is no sense to tolerate insults from you and similar people. But, this is WikiPedian decision and this not related to local chapter issues. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
You didn't read Djordje's edit?
On 11/7/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
The whole reason this is so ridiculous is that you are threatening to remove your status simply b/c of this one thing.
No, this is important issue. Djordje is not dangerous person when we are talking about realiability of Wikipedia, but you are very dangerous, as well as people similar to you.
Without _any_ knowledge about situation (nor political nor linguistic), you are ready to believe in reasonable explained hoaxes. And this would not be the problem if you keep this for yourself. It becomes the big problem when you start to advocate for such things.
Note that I voted for opening Cantonese Wikipedia only because you and one person more explained that there is different writing system. As I don't know anything about linguistic situation in China, I trusted to both of you and considered that people who were opposing -- are Chinese nationalists. When I make relation between this case and Zlatiborian case, I am afraid that I voted for another hoax. Am I right?
And what about some Nigerian villages or ten names for one language in India?
So, this is the issue of scientific competency of Wikimedian projects. If we officially recognize that we are the part of that, we officially recognize such cases like "Zlatiborian Wikipedia".
And I don't want to be in conversation like:
Me: There are more then 100 different language editions of Wikipedia! Someone: And how many of them are Zlatiborian?
I don't want to be the part of scientific non-relevant project. This is not the issue of Zlatiborian.
Note, also, that Djordje is bureaucrat on Serbian Wikipedia.
You didn't read Djordje's edit?
Yes, but I'm not sure it's relevant.
On 11/7/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
The whole reason this is so ridiculous is that you are threatening to remove your status simply b/c of this one thing.
No, this is important issue. Djordje is not dangerous person when we are talking about realiability of Wikipedia, but you are very dangerous, as well as people similar to you.
...
And I would say you are just as dangerous. You seek to further your anti-Zlatiborian agenda by attacking the Zlatiborian cause and pretending that the glorious Zlatiborian language doesn't even exist!
Without _any_ knowledge about situation (nor political nor linguistic), you are ready to believe in reasonable explained hoaxes. And this would not be the problem if you keep this for yourself. It becomes the big problem when you start to advocate for such things.
"Without any knowledge about situation"... that sounds like somebody who's being bitter because I disagree with them. Did you evaluate *all* of the possibilities? Is it really reasonable to assume that, just because I support the creation of a Zlatiborian Wikipedia, that I have 0 knowledge about the situation? After all, Danka, SellackAlex, and others supported it... does that mean they have 0 knowledge??
Note that I voted for opening Cantonese Wikipedia only because you and one person more explained that there is different writing system. As I
Yes, and we provided huge amounts of detail. There are articles we provided which explain it even further. All you said was things like "Zlatiborian is the same as Serbian" or "Zlatiborian is a dialect" or whatever. No detailed explanations or demonstrations... so far, the Zlatiborians have demonstrated their claims more than you have demonstrated yours. Not only did they show some key differences between Zlatiborian and Serbian, but they started a test Wikipedia in their beautiful language. They have provided translations to me from Serbian, from which I can see the differences and confirm that Zlatiborian is indeed different to Serbian.
Now, if you expect me to believe what you're saying, you need to demonstrate your case further, which so far you have not done whatsoever.
don't know anything about linguistic situation in China, I trusted to both of you and considered that people who were opposing -- are Chinese nationalists. When I make relation between this case and Zlatiborian case, I am afraid that I voted for another hoax. Am I right?
No, you're wrong. The difference is that even people WITHIN China has voted "for" the creation. The vast majority of voters still support a Cantonese Wikipedia. This would not happen for a hoax.
And what about some Nigerian villages or ten names for one language in India?
Some Nigerian villages *do* have their own languages. Ten names for one language... that's strange, you don't create different WPs for names. Even if you consider Zlatiborian an *accent*, as some Serbian nationalist extremists and other anti-Zlatiborists seem to, it is more than a "name" for Serbian.
So, this is the issue of scientific competency of Wikimedian projects. If we officially recognize that we are the part of that, we officially recognize such cases like "Zlatiborian Wikipedia".
Uhh... perhaps it would be better to consider these actions if and when a Zlatiborian Wikipedia is created, rather than saying "OMG people are discussing it!!! And the majority have voted against!!! The sky is falling!!! FEAR! ABORT MISSION!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHH"
And I don't want to be in conversation like:
Me: There are more then 100 different language editions of Wikipedia! Someone: And how many of them are Zlatiborian?
I don't want to be the part of scientific non-relevant project. This is not the issue of Zlatiborian.
Uhh... it seems to me like it is. Now, if the majority votes against a ZB.WP in the end, there is absolutely 0 reason for you to continue with this action. Sure, if the majority votes *for* it, you may lose all hope in humanity.
Note, also, that Djordje is bureaucrat on Serbian Wikipedia.
Yes, and Walter van Kalken is a sysop on the Thai WP. Yet, Dutch is not a dialect of Thai... being a B.C or S.O on a Wikipedia, does not mean it's your native language.
Mark
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
On 11/7/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
And I would say you are just as dangerous. You seek to further your anti-Zlatiborian agenda by attacking the Zlatiborian cause and pretending that the glorious Zlatiborian language doesn't even exist!
Mark, you are not only fool...
I thought that this issue is serious, but when I read Mark's edit, I realized that Djordje made of Mark a real, big fool. Djordje made my day :)
Mark is responding to 17 year old guy who is far of any kind of political position:
*You're the worst of the lot. My Zlatiborian brothers will surely find their glorious homeland free from the shackles of Serbian oppression when they stage a revolution against your long occupation, and the Zlatiborian language and culture will finally have a chance to be promoted internationally without fear of punishment by cruel Serbian nationalists. You think that you can claim that just because I am not a Serbian, I know nothing about this issue. Well, I have seen images of Zlatibor on television, and I read all about the Serbian occupation. I have a bumper sticker that says "Free Zlatibor Now! Boycott Serbia!", and I own some books on Zlatiborian language. My deepest hope is that after the Serbian tyranny ends, I may travel to Zlatibor and witness the beauty firsthand. That is, unless you and your Serbian nationalist goons destroy it first. --Node ue 19:53, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Milos Rancic wrote:
From: Milos Rancic millosh@mutualaid.org To: wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Status of Serbia and Montenegro chapter Cc: Reply-To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org X-Spambayes-Classification: ham; 0.000 (3) Old-Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 02:27:19 +0100 Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 02:49:08 +0100 (CET)
On 11/7/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
And I would say you are just as dangerous. You seek to further your anti-Zlatiborian agenda by attacking the Zlatiborian cause and pretending that the glorious Zlatiborian language doesn't even exist!
Mark, you are not only fool...
Can you two please refrain from personal attacks and can you please assume good faith? Thank you. I have no knowledge at all about Zlatiborian but I suspect it's a dialect, given the proposals I see for Dutch "languages" (Stellingwerfs, Gronings).
Gerrit.
On 11/7/05, Gerrit Holl gerrit@nl.linux.org wrote:
Mark, you are not only fool...
Can you two please refrain from personal attacks and can you please assume good faith? Thank you. I have no knowledge at all about Zlatiborian but I suspect it's a dialect, given the proposals I see for Dutch "languages" (Stellingwerfs, Gronings).
Mark is highly irresponsible person (in shorter: fool). And this kind of behaviour is accepted here. (Also, when someone calls me as "Serbian nationalist" while talking about one hoax, this is personal attack, too.) After a couple of months of trying to have good faith in communication with Mark, I am so tired.
Zlatiborian speech (not even dialect!) is in the center of linguistic area which is basis for standard Serbian language. Only old people there are Iyekavians. The most of them are Ekavians (while Djordje said different!). In this moment, their pronounce is the only standard pronounce (they have full system of accents, unlike people from Belgrade, for example).
Example to illustrate a principle. Milos tried to demonstrate that Djordje's native language must be Serbian because he is a bureaucrat at the Serbian Wikipedia, which is obviously pure Wednesday*.
Mark
*See Juanes -- La Camisa Negra.
On 06/11/05, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
Yes, and Walter van Kalken is a sysop on the Thai WP. Yet, Dutch is not a dialect of Thai... being a B.C or S.O on a Wikipedia, does not mean it's your native language.
HUH? what do I have to do with this discussion?
Walter/Waerth _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
On 11/7/05, Milos Rancic millosh@mutualaid.org wrote:
It's not as if the Board voted to accept a Zlatiborian Wikipedia.
No, we understand it. This is the community decision and we are worry about the future of such proposals and possible accepting of them.
It is neither a board nor a community decision, since there has been no decision whatsoever to start a Zlatiborian Wikipedia. The only thing any community did decide was that the articles relating to the Zlatiborian language on the English Wikipedia were a hoax and were to be deleted. I don't know what is making you think there is any support for this. Are you taking Mark's comments to be reflective of the entire community?
Angela.
On 11/7/05, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote:
It is neither a board nor a community decision, since there has been no decision whatsoever to start a Zlatiborian Wikipedia. The only thing any community did decide was that the articles relating to the Zlatiborian language on the English Wikipedia were a hoax and were to be deleted. I don't know what is making you think there is any support for this. Are you taking Mark's comments to be reflective of the entire community?
I am afraid that this is not exception, but the rule. People have to waste a lot of time in explaining that something is a hoax.
This means that there is urgent need for the Wikim/pedian body which would have people educated in linguistics, anthropology, sociology. Mark Williamson maybe has good intentions (maybe sometime he would be right about some repression and some urging for new Wikipedia...), but I am really afraid of political decisions which are based on such kind of propaganda.
Note that we are talking here about well known language area. Again, what about not-so-well -known language areas?
Mark made a lot of noise. And, before I started to waste my time on Zlatiborian once again, more people was for opening Zlatiborian Wikipedia. Also, when I see that Mark said to some of Serbian Wikipedians that they are "nationalists", that I have "my Serbian nationalist crew" (note, about one hoax!) -- I think that no one Serbian Wikipedian shouldn't vote on this poll. (As well as I would insist that we don't vote about such kind of hoaxes.) And without people from sr: this hoax would pass.
And we (on sr:) didn't have the community one year and half before.
And what about other similar situations?
I am afraid that this is not exception, but the rule. People have to waste a lot of time in explaining that something is a hoax.
No, they don't. Currently, there are 12 people against a ZB.WIKI, and 5 people in favour. Did these 12 people change their votes because it was explained to them? No.
This means that there is urgent need for the Wikim/pedian body which would have people educated in linguistics, anthropology, sociology. Mark Williamson maybe has good intentions (maybe sometime he would be right about some repression and some urging for new Wikipedia...), but I am really afraid of political decisions which are based on such kind of propaganda.
Do you honestly think that I am so easily influenced by propaganda? Perhaps if you paid a bit more attention to this whole thing, you'd realise what's actually going on here? I'm both surprised and disappointed that you have yet to pick up on it.
In fact, I'm not just disappointed, but insulted as well. So many other people have already picked up on the truth of the situation, and have found this in the end to be a good experience. You, on the other hand, still have no idea what's going on here.
Note that we are talking here about well known language area. Again, what about not-so-well -known language areas?
Mark made a lot of noise. And, before I started to waste my time on Zlatiborian once again, more people was for opening Zlatiborian Wikipedia. Also, when I see that Mark said to some of Serbian
Yes, but even before your crew of anti-Zlatiborian goons came along to vote against a Wikipedia in the beautiful language of the ever-glorious Zlatiborian peoples, there were some enemies of the Zlatiborian people who had already voted against it and yet were not influenced by Serbian nationalist extremism -- Chamdarae, Arbeo, etc...
For those reasons, a Zlatiborian WP would most likely have never passed even without the interference of you and your nationalist buddies. That saddens me immensely, that just a few nationalist goons and their overseas allies can further oppress such a beautiful language and the glorious people who speak it.
Wikipedians that they are "nationalists", that I have "my Serbian nationalist crew" (note, about one hoax!) -- I think that no one Serbian Wikipedian shouldn't vote on this poll. (As well as I would insist that we don't vote about such kind of hoaxes.) And without people from sr: this hoax would pass.
. . .
And we (on sr:) didn't have the community one year and half before.
. . .
And what about other similar situations?
I really don't care so much about the Wikimedia thing as I do about the Zlatiborian thing. It still saddens me immensely that you and your friends have decided to continue the trend of Serbian oppression of the Zlatiborians, and that you continue to try to force them to hide their unique language and culture. Well, soon enough the Zlatiborians will shed the shackles of Serbian oppression in a war of independence in which justice will be served swiftly upon all who are enemies of the Zlatiborian people!
Cheers, Mark
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
Mark Williamson wrote: <snip>
Yes, but even before your crew of anti-Zlatiborian goons came along to vote against a Wikipedia in the beautiful language of the ever-glorious Zlatiborian peoples, there were some enemies of the Zlatiborian people who had already voted against it and yet were not influenced by Serbian nationalist extremism -- Chamdarae, Arbeo, etc...
For those reasons, a Zlatiborian WP would most likely have never passed even without the interference of you and your nationalist buddies. That saddens me immensely, that just a few nationalist goons and their overseas allies can further oppress such a beautiful language and the glorious people who speak it.
<snip>
I really don't care so much about the Wikimedia thing as I do about the Zlatiborian thing. It still saddens me immensely that you and your friends have decided to continue the trend of Serbian oppression of the Zlatiborians, and that you continue to try to force them to hide their unique language and culture. Well, soon enough the Zlatiborians will shed the shackles of Serbian oppression in a war of independence in which justice will be served swiftly upon all who are enemies of the Zlatiborian people!
I would like to point out that this is the same hysterical, nonsensical drivel that Mark was spouting on #wikipedia yesterday...
Don't worry Mark, the men in black helicopters will be here shortly.
- -- Alphax | /"\ Encrypted Email Preferred | \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613 | X Against HTML email & vCards http://tinyurl.com/cc9up | / \
On 07/11/05, Alphax alphasigmax@gmail.com wrote:
I would like to point out that this is the same hysterical, nonsensical drivel that Mark was spouting on #wikipedia yesterday...
Don't worry Mark, the men in black helicopters will be here shortly.
Alphax, the hour of judgement will soon be upon us and the glorious Zlatiborians and their allies will triumph! By siding with the Serbian oppressors, you have earned yourself a one-way ticket to wherever it is the Zlatiborians decide to send you people!
Soon enough, the Zlatiborians will wage a struggle for independence against their evil Serbian oppressors, and they will emerge victorious! Finally, the inhabitants of Mt Zlatibor will be able to live free from the shackles of Serbian oppression, and their culture will be admired internationally for its glory and beauty!
When that time comes, the enemies of the Zlatiborian people, yourself included, will meet with swift justice, and let me tell you it will not be pleasant!
Cheers, Mark.
On 11/8/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Soon enough, the Zlatiborians will wage a struggle for independence against their evil Serbian oppressors, and they will emerge victorious! Finally, the inhabitants of Mt Zlatibor will be able to live free from the shackles of Serbian oppression, and their culture will be admired internationally for its glory and beauty!
When that time comes, the enemies of the Zlatiborian people, yourself included, will meet with swift justice, and let me tell you it will not be pleasant!
Mark,
When the matter goes as far as Milos saying that the Serbian and Montenegro Chapter does not want to be part of Wikimedia, I think you should really try to evaluate what damage you have caused.
I am going to ask you to finally make your point and stop playing around. I have reread this whole thread and am now convinced this is all a hoax. Great. Very funny. Can you please make your point and let us be finished with this whole thing?
I am also going to ask you to consider one thing, you the paragon of forgotten languages and languages in general. You seem to have forgotten one very important thing. You have been leading this whole hoax in English, using irony and double-meanings, with emphasis and great sentences. But you are dealing with people (myself included) who are not native English speakers. And who, as you may have noticed, have failed to see the irony and have taken the matter at heart. In short, you have been using them.
As a non-native English speaker, and yet someone who strives to master the language, I am probably best placed to say how the most difficult thing to catch in a language is humour. And how when humour is lost on someone and you see it drift in seriousness, you should just hold you hand up and say "stop! I was joking". Hurting feelings and making fun of people because they don't speak your language is about the worst thing I can see happening in this supposedly "multicultural" community. Most of us are making efforts to address you in a language you master, you have not made that effort. Not even one little bit.
I feel this is not only inconsiderate, but also plain nasty.
On another note, I am sorry to tell you that you have, on top of playing with people's feelings, failed to make your point. At least, *I* have failed to see where you were leading. Blame it on my non-English-speaker-ness, or whatever else suits your funny self. But hey, target missed. Game over.
I will add just one thing. You and all of the other native English speakers who played along and never tried to clear things up should really once try and put themselves in our shoes. Once. Just once. I believe it would help. Really.
Cheers,
Delphine -- ~notafish
On 07/11/05, Delphine Ménard notafishz@gmail.com wrote:
Mark,
When the matter goes as far as Milos saying that the Serbian and Montenegro Chapter does not want to be part of Wikimedia, I think you should really try to evaluate what damage you have caused.
The damage *I* have caused? I think that the damage here has been caused mostly by Milos and the other Serbian nationalists who have decided to try to prevent the Zlatiborians from having their own Wikipedia.
I am going to ask you to finally make your point and stop playing around. I have reread this whole thread and am now convinced this is all a hoax. Great. Very funny. Can you please make your point and let us be finished with this whole thing?
Again, you're making it sound as if this is all my fault. I, who have not proposed this new Wikipedia in the first place. It was proposed by User:SellackAlex. I merely supported it.
It wasn't a real problem until Milos and the other anti-Zlatiborians decided to make a big fuss to try to prevent the glorious people of Zlatibor from getting the Wikipedia they so richly deserve in their beautiful native language, and for petty political reasons.
I am also going to ask you to consider one thing, you the paragon of forgotten languages and languages in general. You seem to have forgotten one very important thing. You have been leading this whole hoax in English, using irony and double-meanings, with emphasis and great sentences. But you are dealing with people (myself included) who are not native English speakers. And who, as you may have noticed, have failed to see the irony and have taken the matter at heart. In short, you have been using them.
You've lost me with that paragraph. Come again?
As a non-native English speaker, and yet someone who strives to master the language, I am probably best placed to say how the most difficult thing to catch in a language is humour. And how when humour is lost on someone and you see it drift in seriousness, you should just hold you hand up and say "stop! I was joking". Hurting feelings and making fun of people because they don't speak your language is about the worst thing I can see happening in this supposedly "multicultural" community. Most of us are making efforts to address you in a language you master, you have not made that effort. Not even one little bit.
I'm not sure what humour has to do with this. If you want to address me in some other language, though, I'll try as hard as I can to understand it. It was my choice to write in English because it is the language in which I am most comfortable. Nobody forced you to respond in English. If you were to respond in French, it would be difficult for me but with some effort I could understand what you said. Now, don't tell me I haven't made an effort when it is by your own choice that I have not had an opportunity to make such an effort.
As far as making fun of people, I certainly agree. Nobody should be made fun of because of their ability or lack thereof in any given language.
On another note, I am sorry to tell you that you have, on top of playing with people's feelings, failed to make your point. At least, *I* have failed to see where you were leading. Blame it on my non-English-speaker-ness, or whatever else suits your funny self. But hey, target missed. Game over.
Again, you've lost me.
I will add just one thing. You and all of the other native English speakers who played along and never tried to clear things up should really once try and put themselves in our shoes. Once. Just once. I believe it would help. Really.
Wha??
Mark
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
As a non-native English speaker, and yet someone who strives to master the language, I am probably best placed to say how the most difficult thing to catch in a language is humour. And how when humour is lost on someone and you see it drift in seriousness, you should just hold you hand up and say "stop! I was joking". Hurting feelings and making fun of people because they don't speak your language is about the worst thing I can see happening in this supposedly "multicultural" community. Most of us are making efforts to address you in a language you master, you have not made that effort. Not even one little bit.
As a non native Thai speaker, but performing comedy in one of Thailands top comedy groups everyday on stage and on TV, I totally agree with Delphine. Everyday I walk into this barrier and try to climb it. The succesrate differs from day to day. Waht is humour in one country/culture is totally not understandable not translatable in another language. Same goes for double and ironic phrases. By now I can understand quite a few of it in Thai ..... but I cannot translate them into English or even my native tongue ... Dutch. Same goes the other way around. Double meanings/humour in Dutch is very difficult te translate into, or explain to Thais. These kind of things are very culturally bounded. Even between languages that are close.
Node you are damaging a lot of things with what you are doing now and with what you have done in the past. Milos please let not one culturally ignorant person stop you from doing what you intended to do.
Walter/Waerth
I feel this is not only inconsiderate, but also plain nasty.
On another note, I am sorry to tell you that you have, on top of playing with people's feelings, failed to make your point. At least, *I* have failed to see where you were leading. Blame it on my non-English-speaker-ness, or whatever else suits your funny self. But hey, target missed. Game over.
I will add just one thing. You and all of the other native English speakers who played along and never tried to clear things up should really once try and put themselves in our shoes. Once. Just once. I believe it would help. Really.
Cheers,
Delphine
~notafish _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Mark Williamson wrote:
Soon enough, the Zlatiborians will wage a struggle for independence against their evil Serbian oppressors, and they will emerge victorious! Finally, the inhabitants of Mt Zlatibor will be able to live free from the shackles of Serbian oppression, and their culture will be admired internationally for its glory and beauty!
Mark, please study http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:POINT :)
Gerrit.
I would like to point out that this is the same hysterical, nonsensical drivel that Mark was spouting on #wikipedia yesterday... Don't worry Mark, the men in black helicopters will be here shortly.
He's just disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point (that having separate Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian Wikipedias is as silly as having a Zlatiborian one).
wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org