There are some serious issues on Romanian Wikipedia, where a few Nazis have been taking over lots of articles, while the admins are supporting and defending them.
I tried arguing, but it's useless with such a horde of freaks.
The issue is spread on dozens of articles and I choose for example, one of them, the article on Zionism:
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sionism
The article on Zionism is completely written from an anti-semitic POV, and it even has a section of comparison between Zionism and Fascism, one about propaganda in the "corporatist press" and one about "ethnic purification".
Here are some excerpts:
"Zionism is not Judaism, not Semitism (sic!), but a racist ideology which glorifies violence, just like Fascism"
"the Jewish Romanians of Bessarabia betrayed the interests of their country"
"later, Zionism got a fascist "colour". Vladimir Jabotinsky is an ideologue of terrorism, while the first modern terrorist state, Bolshevik Russia..."
"when their leave was refused, the same Bolshevik-Zionist-anti-nationals become refuseniks, then neo-conservatives by leaving directly to America, where they promote Zionist wars."
There's absolutely nothing that can be kept from that article. Everything is just the lowest kind of anti-semitic propaganda.
So I tried to revert to an older explaining that it's written from a neo-nazi POV. I got a warning for that, it was reverted and protected.
I don't want to waste my time negotiating with Nazis. Any solution, apart from stopping editing Romanian Wikipedia?
Hoi!
Sadly enough ro.wiki is not an exception. Can you provide complete translations with permalinks? I hear there shall soon be a special Committee deciding whether such wikies shall remain part of the wikipedia project or be expelled altogether.
Moreover, if wmf does not act on legal level as such I, along with other individuals may be willing to try individuals in Court asking refund for the damage they cause to the wmf.
It's time we get rid of racism and nationalistic deliriums. And it's time we have people condemned to pay for what they do, if and when what they do is a crime. It's not only about the Jews, the Slavic wikies have a number of such abnormal behaviours based on internal tribalism, too.
We aren't working for free all day long just to have these idiots put their penises on a table to measure who's got it longer. It's time we take a stand, methinks. Same applies to equivalent red or religious deliriums, if any. Enough is enough. One odd article happens everywhere, but a full trend is another thing.
We publish encyclopedic content, not someone's dumb political pamphlets. People either acknowledge what "encyclopedia" means or learn to pay for their servers.
Berto 'd Sera Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
-----Original Message----- From: wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of John Kavalos Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 1:50 PM To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikipedia-l] From Romanian Wikipedia, the Nazi Encyclopedia
There are some serious issues on Romanian Wikipedia, where a few Nazis have been taking over lots of articles, while the admins are supporting and defending them.
I tried arguing, but it's useless with such a horde of freaks.
The issue is spread on dozens of articles and I choose for example, one of them, the article on Zionism:
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sionism
The article on Zionism is completely written from an anti-semitic POV, and it even has a section of comparison between Zionism and Fascism, one about propaganda in the "corporatist press" and one about "ethnic purification".
Here are some excerpts:
"Zionism is not Judaism, not Semitism (sic!), but a racist ideology which glorifies violence, just like Fascism"
"the Jewish Romanians of Bessarabia betrayed the interests of their country"
"later, Zionism got a fascist "colour". Vladimir Jabotinsky is an ideologue of terrorism, while the first modern terrorist state, Bolshevik Russia..."
"when their leave was refused, the same Bolshevik-Zionist-anti-nationals become refuseniks, then neo-conservatives by leaving directly to America, where they promote Zionist wars."
There's absolutely nothing that can be kept from that article. Everything is just the lowest kind of anti-semitic propaganda.
So I tried to revert to an older explaining that it's written from a neo-nazi POV. I got a warning for that, it was reverted and protected.
I don't want to waste my time negotiating with Nazis. Any solution, apart from stopping editing Romanian Wikipedia?
_______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
You can check out a small list here, it is by no means complete.
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilizator:FrancisTyers
Fran
On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 14:07 +0300, Berto 'd Sera wrote:
Hoi!
Sadly enough ro.wiki is not an exception. Can you provide complete translations with permalinks? I hear there shall soon be a special Committee deciding whether such wikies shall remain part of the wikipedia project or be expelled altogether.
Moreover, if wmf does not act on legal level as such I, along with other individuals may be willing to try individuals in Court asking refund for the damage they cause to the wmf.
It's time we get rid of racism and nationalistic deliriums. And it's time we have people condemned to pay for what they do, if and when what they do is a crime. It's not only about the Jews, the Slavic wikies have a number of such abnormal behaviours based on internal tribalism, too.
We aren't working for free all day long just to have these idiots put their penises on a table to measure who's got it longer. It's time we take a stand, methinks. Same applies to equivalent red or religious deliriums, if any. Enough is enough. One odd article happens everywhere, but a full trend is another thing.
We publish encyclopedic content, not someone's dumb political pamphlets. People either acknowledge what "encyclopedia" means or learn to pay for their servers.
Berto 'd Sera Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
-----Original Message----- From: wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of John Kavalos Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 1:50 PM To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikipedia-l] From Romanian Wikipedia, the Nazi Encyclopedia
There are some serious issues on Romanian Wikipedia, where a few Nazis have been taking over lots of articles, while the admins are supporting and defending them.
I tried arguing, but it's useless with such a horde of freaks.
The issue is spread on dozens of articles and I choose for example, one of them, the article on Zionism:
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sionism
The article on Zionism is completely written from an anti-semitic POV, and it even has a section of comparison between Zionism and Fascism, one about propaganda in the "corporatist press" and one about "ethnic purification".
Here are some excerpts:
"Zionism is not Judaism, not Semitism (sic!), but a racist ideology which glorifies violence, just like Fascism"
"the Jewish Romanians of Bessarabia betrayed the interests of their country"
"later, Zionism got a fascist "colour". Vladimir Jabotinsky is an ideologue of terrorism, while the first modern terrorist state, Bolshevik Russia..."
"when their leave was refused, the same Bolshevik-Zionist-anti-nationals become refuseniks, then neo-conservatives by leaving directly to America, where they promote Zionist wars."
There's absolutely nothing that can be kept from that article. Everything is just the lowest kind of anti-semitic propaganda.
So I tried to revert to an older explaining that it's written from a neo-nazi POV. I got a warning for that, it was reverted and protected.
I don't want to waste my time negotiating with Nazis. Any solution, apart from stopping editing Romanian Wikipedia?
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hoi!
Thanks, pls keep these lists updated as much as possible. I'm doing a similar job in the Cyrillic space. We will soon able to use them.
I'd suggest you watch ALL local political parties for "free propaganda", too. Here it's not uncommon to find out that one political side is 100% dominating, which excludes a project from being a wiki in principle.
Berto 'd Sera Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
Hoi again!
Francis and John, pls bear in mind that to stand in front of an Arbitration Committee you will need to have full translations of the articles AND a permalink to the translated version.
Bear in mind that mostly the people in the Arbitration Committee will not be able to read the original text and that your opponents will obviously say you have totally misunderstood the text. The ArbCom will not judge whether being a left/right wing is nice, it will judge whether a wiki is publishing encyclopedic content or not.
What a report needs to show (for example) is: 1) There is a clear political (moral/religious/racial) bias in the wiki 2) Articles do not have an encyclopedic form, they rather appear to be a "Pravda" (no sources, no countering POVs listed, just a "revelation") 3) Derogative racial/national/etc terms are used as normal lexicon
The political/religious/moral/racial direction towards the wiki is drifting is absolutely irrelevant. Any organized bias is intolerable as such.
Berto 'd Sera Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
-----Original Message----- From: wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Francis Tyers Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 3:13 PM To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] From Romanian Wikipedia, the Nazi Encyclopedia
You can check out a small list here, it is by no means complete.
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilizator:FrancisTyers
Fran
On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 14:07 +0300, Berto 'd Sera wrote:
Hoi!
Sadly enough ro.wiki is not an exception. Can you provide complete translations with permalinks? I hear there shall soon be a special
Committee
deciding whether such wikies shall remain part of the wikipedia project or be expelled altogether.
Moreover, if wmf does not act on legal level as such I, along with other individuals may be willing to try individuals in Court asking refund for
the
damage they cause to the wmf.
It's time we get rid of racism and nationalistic deliriums. And it's time
we
have people condemned to pay for what they do, if and when what they do is
a
crime. It's not only about the Jews, the Slavic wikies have a number of
such
abnormal behaviours based on internal tribalism, too.
We aren't working for free all day long just to have these idiots put
their
penises on a table to measure who's got it longer. It's time we take a stand, methinks. Same applies to equivalent red or religious deliriums, if any. Enough is enough. One odd article happens everywhere, but a full
trend
is another thing.
We publish encyclopedic content, not someone's dumb political pamphlets. People either acknowledge what "encyclopedia" means or learn to pay for their servers.
Berto 'd Sera Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
-----Original Message----- From: wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of John Kavalos Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 1:50 PM To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikipedia-l] From Romanian Wikipedia, the Nazi Encyclopedia
There are some serious issues on Romanian Wikipedia, where a few Nazis have been taking over lots of articles, while the admins are supporting and defending them.
I tried arguing, but it's useless with such a horde of freaks.
The issue is spread on dozens of articles and I choose for example, one of them, the article on Zionism:
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sionism
The article on Zionism is completely written from an anti-semitic POV, and it even has a section of comparison between Zionism and Fascism, one about propaganda in the "corporatist press" and one about "ethnic purification".
Here are some excerpts:
"Zionism is not Judaism, not Semitism (sic!), but a racist ideology which glorifies violence, just like Fascism"
"the Jewish Romanians of Bessarabia betrayed the interests of their country"
"later, Zionism got a fascist "colour". Vladimir Jabotinsky is an
ideologue
of terrorism, while the first modern terrorist state, Bolshevik Russia..."
"when their leave was refused, the same Bolshevik-Zionist-anti-nationals become refuseniks, then neo-conservatives by leaving directly to America, where they promote Zionist wars."
There's absolutely nothing that can be kept from that article. Everything is just the lowest kind of anti-semitic propaganda.
So I tried to revert to an older explaining that it's written from a neo-nazi POV. I got a warning for that, it was reverted and protected.
I don't want to waste my time negotiating with Nazis. Any solution, apart from stopping editing Romanian Wikipedia?
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
_______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
You need to find a few native Romanian speakers to back you up. If my friend greets an American in Chinese, and the American asks me what my friend said, if I wanted to sabotage my friend, I could say that he was insulting him in Chinese.
2007/4/15, Berto 'd Sera albertoserra@ukr.net:
Hoi again!
Francis and John, pls bear in mind that to stand in front of an Arbitration Committee you will need to have full translations of the articles AND a permalink to the translated version.
Bear in mind that mostly the people in the Arbitration Committee will not be able to read the original text and that your opponents will obviously say you have totally misunderstood the text. The ArbCom will not judge whether being a left/right wing is nice, it will judge whether a wiki is publishing encyclopedic content or not.
What a report needs to show (for example) is:
- There is a clear political (moral/religious/racial) bias in the wiki
- Articles do not have an encyclopedic form, they rather appear to be a
"Pravda" (no sources, no countering POVs listed, just a "revelation") 3) Derogative racial/national/etc terms are used as normal lexicon
The political/religious/moral/racial direction towards the wiki is drifting is absolutely irrelevant. Any organized bias is intolerable as such.
Berto 'd Sera Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
-----Original Message----- From: wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Francis Tyers Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 3:13 PM To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] From Romanian Wikipedia, the Nazi Encyclopedia
You can check out a small list here, it is by no means complete.
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilizator:FrancisTyers
Fran
On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 14:07 +0300, Berto 'd Sera wrote:
Hoi!
Sadly enough ro.wiki is not an exception. Can you provide complete translations with permalinks? I hear there shall soon be a special
Committee
deciding whether such wikies shall remain part of the wikipedia project or be expelled altogether.
Moreover, if wmf does not act on legal level as such I, along with other individuals may be willing to try individuals in Court asking refund for
the
damage they cause to the wmf.
It's time we get rid of racism and nationalistic deliriums. And it's time
we
have people condemned to pay for what they do, if and when what they do is
a
crime. It's not only about the Jews, the Slavic wikies have a number of
such
abnormal behaviours based on internal tribalism, too.
We aren't working for free all day long just to have these idiots put
their
penises on a table to measure who's got it longer. It's time we take a stand, methinks. Same applies to equivalent red or religious deliriums, if any. Enough is enough. One odd article happens everywhere, but a full
trend
is another thing.
We publish encyclopedic content, not someone's dumb political pamphlets. People either acknowledge what "encyclopedia" means or learn to pay for their servers.
Berto 'd Sera Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
-----Original Message----- From: wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of John Kavalos Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 1:50 PM To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikipedia-l] From Romanian Wikipedia, the Nazi Encyclopedia
There are some serious issues on Romanian Wikipedia, where a few Nazis have been taking over lots of articles, while the admins are supporting and defending them.
I tried arguing, but it's useless with such a horde of freaks.
The issue is spread on dozens of articles and I choose for example, one of them, the article on Zionism:
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sionism
The article on Zionism is completely written from an anti-semitic POV, and it even has a section of comparison between Zionism and Fascism, one about propaganda in the "corporatist press" and one about "ethnic purification".
Here are some excerpts:
"Zionism is not Judaism, not Semitism (sic!), but a racist ideology which glorifies violence, just like Fascism"
"the Jewish Romanians of Bessarabia betrayed the interests of their country"
"later, Zionism got a fascist "colour". Vladimir Jabotinsky is an
ideologue
of terrorism, while the first modern terrorist state, Bolshevik Russia..."
"when their leave was refused, the same Bolshevik-Zionist-anti-nationals become refuseniks, then neo-conservatives by leaving directly to America, where they promote Zionist wars."
There's absolutely nothing that can be kept from that article. Everything is just the lowest kind of anti-semitic propaganda.
So I tried to revert to an older explaining that it's written from a neo-nazi POV. I got a warning for that, it was reverted and protected.
I don't want to waste my time negotiating with Nazis. Any solution, apart from stopping editing Romanian Wikipedia?
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
HOI!
Not so simple :) Translations will obviously be checked by a number of independent sources. It's a common procedure for all international Arbitrations, not just for WMF.
All conflicting parties obviously have an interest in choosing the "best" wording in making a translation. This is why usually the translations presented by both sides aren't used for final decisions. It takes a number of third independent sources to make a decision. Sides simply present the materials (the links and a first translation) on which a decision is later made based on independent translations.
Berto 'd Sera Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
-----Original Message----- From: wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of J.L.W.S. The Special One Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 5:16 PM To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] From Romanian Wikipedia, the Nazi Encyclopedia
You need to find a few native Romanian speakers to back you up. If my friend greets an American in Chinese, and the American asks me what my friend said, if I wanted to sabotage my friend, I could say that he was insulting him in Chinese.
2007/4/15, Berto 'd Sera albertoserra@ukr.net:
Hoi again!
Francis and John, pls bear in mind that to stand in front of an
Arbitration
Committee you will need to have full translations of the articles AND a permalink to the translated version.
Bear in mind that mostly the people in the Arbitration Committee will not
be
able to read the original text and that your opponents will obviously say you have totally misunderstood the text. The ArbCom will not judge whether being a left/right wing is nice, it will judge whether a wiki is
publishing
encyclopedic content or not.
What a report needs to show (for example) is:
- There is a clear political (moral/religious/racial) bias in the wiki
- Articles do not have an encyclopedic form, they rather appear to be a
"Pravda" (no sources, no countering POVs listed, just a "revelation") 3) Derogative racial/national/etc terms are used as normal lexicon
The political/religious/moral/racial direction towards the wiki is
drifting
is absolutely irrelevant. Any organized bias is intolerable as such.
Berto 'd Sera Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
-----Original Message----- From: wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Francis
Tyers
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 3:13 PM To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] From Romanian Wikipedia, the Nazi Encyclopedia
You can check out a small list here, it is by no means complete.
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilizator:FrancisTyers
Fran
On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 14:07 +0300, Berto 'd Sera wrote:
Hoi!
Sadly enough ro.wiki is not an exception. Can you provide complete translations with permalinks? I hear there shall soon be a special
Committee
deciding whether such wikies shall remain part of the wikipedia project
or
be expelled altogether.
Moreover, if wmf does not act on legal level as such I, along with other individuals may be willing to try individuals in Court asking refund for
the
damage they cause to the wmf.
It's time we get rid of racism and nationalistic deliriums. And it's
time
we
have people condemned to pay for what they do, if and when what they do
is
a
crime. It's not only about the Jews, the Slavic wikies have a number of
such
abnormal behaviours based on internal tribalism, too.
We aren't working for free all day long just to have these idiots put
their
penises on a table to measure who's got it longer. It's time we take a stand, methinks. Same applies to equivalent red or religious deliriums,
if
any. Enough is enough. One odd article happens everywhere, but a full
trend
is another thing.
We publish encyclopedic content, not someone's dumb political pamphlets. People either acknowledge what "encyclopedia" means or learn to pay for their servers.
Berto 'd Sera Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti
vojaotri)
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
-----Original Message----- From: wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of John
Kavalos
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 1:50 PM To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikipedia-l] From Romanian Wikipedia, the Nazi Encyclopedia
There are some serious issues on Romanian Wikipedia, where a few Nazis have been taking over lots of articles, while the admins are supporting and defending them.
I tried arguing, but it's useless with such a horde of freaks.
The issue is spread on dozens of articles and I choose for example, one of them, the article on Zionism:
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sionism
The article on Zionism is completely written from an anti-semitic POV, and it even has a section of comparison between Zionism and Fascism, one about propaganda in the "corporatist press" and one about "ethnic purification".
Here are some excerpts:
"Zionism is not Judaism, not Semitism (sic!), but a racist ideology
which
glorifies violence, just like Fascism"
"the Jewish Romanians of Bessarabia betrayed the interests of their country"
"later, Zionism got a fascist "colour". Vladimir Jabotinsky is an
ideologue
of terrorism, while the first modern terrorist state, Bolshevik
Russia..."
"when their leave was refused, the same Bolshevik-Zionist-anti-nationals become refuseniks, then neo-conservatives by leaving directly to
America,
where they promote Zionist wars."
There's absolutely nothing that can be kept from that article.
Everything
is just the lowest kind of anti-semitic propaganda.
So I tried to revert to an older explaining that it's written from a neo-nazi POV. I got a warning for that, it was reverted and protected.
I don't want to waste my time negotiating with Nazis. Any solution, apart from stopping editing Romanian Wikipedia?
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
_______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Francis and John, pls bear in mind that to stand in front of an Arbitration Committee you will need to have full translations of the articles AND a permalink to the translated version.
I thought all ArbComs were project specific, so if there is a Romanian ArbCom, I would expect them to speak Romanian. If there isn't one, then I'm not sure there's any route of appeal.
Hoi!
We all wait for a Meta ArbCom to be instituted for such cases. No internal ArbCom can be useful when a community has already clearly expressed a point by publishing the material.
This is not about theoretical shades; it's about a definite damage to the wmf trademark. Such damage can be estimated in hundreds of thousands of dollars by any Court (lost grants on the American/European market etc, credibility damage, etc). IMHO we must have this money refunded by those individuals who made the damage, at least in Kyiv and Moscow putting up a lawyer's pool for this purpose is absolutely possible. And we must make it LOUD, so that people understand what's the music.
Communities are free to publish what they wish in principle, and wmf is free to decide whether this is wiki or not. If not then the project cannot use a wikipedia trademark. Apart from that any community is obviously free to publish a fully creationist wiki, a pro-terrorism wiki, a "kill-them-niggers" wiki or whatever else.
Only if they wish to go that way they must do it under their own logo and they must pay for servers, development and bandwidth from their own wallets. They also have to deal with the cops themselves, since some of these POVs are treated as crimes in some nations.
Berto 'd Sera Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
-----Original Message----- From: wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Dalton Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 5:20 PM To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] From Romanian Wikipedia, the Nazi Encyclopedia
Francis and John, pls bear in mind that to stand in front of an
Arbitration
Committee you will need to have full translations of the articles AND a permalink to the translated version.
I thought all ArbComs were project specific, so if there is a Romanian ArbCom, I would expect them to speak Romanian. If there isn't one, then I'm not sure there's any route of appeal.
_______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On 4/15/07, Berto 'd Sera albertoserra@ukr.net wrote:
Communities are free to publish what they wish in principle, and wmf is free to decide whether this is wiki or not. If not then the project cannot use a wikipedia trademark. Apart from that any community is obviously free to publish a fully creationist wiki, a pro-terrorism wiki, a "kill-them-niggers" wiki or whatever else.
Only if they wish to go that way they must do it under their own logo and they must pay for servers, development and bandwidth from their own wallets. They also have to deal with the cops themselves, since some of these POVs are treated as crimes in some nations.
Berto 'd Sera Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
The best part of this discussion up to now. While fully agree with it we may evaluate if the local wikipedia is being well maintained on other subjects. Having a handful of bad articles around may be a bearable price for an otherwise fair and growing local wikipedia. On the other hand, if the administrators just took the Romanian wikipedia as a free add service, expel them all.
Krohon
Hoi!
Hoi!
Yes... it's a damn complicated problem. I'm preparing a blog on the subject. I have no direct knowledge of the situation in Ro.wiki, but many things happening in the Cyrillic space show the same trend. I'd venture in saying that many post-communist wikies share a similar structure.
In short, judging them as "not adequate" from a standard western POV is easy, yet we have to evaluate a number of real life situations: 1) what kind of information natives are exposed to (this is a very serious issue in Eastern Europe) 2) what kind of education they get in school 3) what alternative sources they may have to reach some encyclopedia-like behaviour
We cannot judge ro.wiki (or ukr.wiki) with the same standards we use for en.wiki, because the books available here are quite different from those you can buy in Oxford and local TV channels say what they say. There are objective reasons behind this apparent madness and we are going to meet similar problems more and more often as we move further away from the West.
Yet even like that it's only a few individuals writing the kind of stuff we are dealing with in this discussion. So IMHO it would be nice if we started direct legal action against named individuals. It would be better then shutting down an entire wiki to kill a couple of parasites.
Too bad I still have to verify to what extent we can have a real impact on such individuals. My lawyers here say we cannot take anything from a kid. Go prove it was the father writing from the family comp...
If a person is living alone we can take his house, his car and part of his salary until forever. That would be good, say 5-6 such examples and people would start to be careful with what they write. But you'll never stop the kids like that. On the opposite you'll probably excite them to even worse vandalism based on some weird "conspiracy theory".
Not an easy decision.
Berto 'd Sera Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
-----Original Message----- From: wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Krohon Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 6:09 PM To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] From Romanian Wikipedia, the Nazi Encyclopedia
On 4/15/07, Berto 'd Sera albertoserra@ukr.net wrote:
Communities are free to publish what they wish in principle, and wmf is free to decide whether this is wiki or not. If not then the project cannot use a wikipedia trademark. Apart from that any community is obviously free to publish a fully creationist wiki, a pro-terrorism wiki, a "kill-them-niggers" wiki or whatever else.
Only if they wish to go that way they must do it under their own logo and they must pay for servers, development and bandwidth from their own wallets. They also have to deal with the cops themselves, since some of these POVs are treated as crimes in some nations.
Berto 'd Sera Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
The best part of this discussion up to now. While fully agree with it we may evaluate if the local wikipedia is being well maintained on other subjects. Having a handful of bad articles around may be a bearable price for an otherwise fair and growing local wikipedia. On the other hand, if the administrators just took the Romanian wikipedia as a free add service, expel them all.
Krohon _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Berto 'd Sera wrote:
This is not about theoretical shades; it's about a definite damage to the wmf trademark. Such damage can be estimated in hundreds of thousands of dollars by any Court (lost grants on the American/European market etc, credibility damage, etc). IMHO we must have this money refunded by those individuals who made the damage, at least in Kyiv and Moscow putting up a lawyer's pool for this purpose is absolutely possible. And we must make it LOUD, so that people understand what's the music.
I'm sure the problem can be better dealt with than by engaging in this kind of exaggerated drama. I suppose if you think that this is best dealt with through the courts you are free to initiate such actions with your money and your time.
Ec
Hoi!
At the same time it is fair to point out that certain groups do believe this as long as that fact is adequately referenced.
You either haven't been following the thread (and you haven't read the original text) or we totally failed to explain ourselves. The problem is not about WHAT is said, but about HOW things are said. That is, they are enunciated as The Absolute Truth.
There's nothing wrong in explaining that political group A has a negative idea of political group B because bla bla bla. Actually that's how an encyclopedia SHOULD be. There is a BIG problem when articles says "the bloody ***ist bitches are responsible of..." with no source (put any national/racial/religious code instead of ***).
It's okay that all wikies cannot avoid getting posted with a quantity of such material, because of simple statistics. But I don't think you'll rate it okay when this material gets treated as "featured material". Or when a wiki publishes open calls to volunteers to "correct en.wiki's corrupted vision of history" by brute force by eliminating all traces of their national involvement in anti-Semitic activities from en.wiki.
It's not abstract principles we deal with, it's real facts, as written in permalinks. Thank God nobody can clear the backups, so it will never be a problem to translate the material and let it speak for itself. Anyway, as I told to Francis and John right from the start, it's a BIG mistake to present insulated fragments in such cases. Most people cannot read the original, and as a result in a few minutes you're going to discuss about empty principles, instead of dealing with a naked fact, as it should be.
Berto 'd Sera Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
2007/4/15, Berto 'd Sera albertoserra@ukr.net:
It's not abstract principles we deal with, it's real facts, as written in permalinks. Thank God nobody can clear the backups, so it will never be a problem to translate the material and let it speak for itself. Anyway, as I told to Francis and John right from the start, it's a BIG mistake to present insulated fragments in such cases. Most people cannot read the original, and as a result in a few minutes you're going to discuss about empty principles, instead of dealing with a naked fact, as it should be.
http://ro.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sionism&oldid=949385
TOC: 1. History 2. Ideology 3. Propaganda 4. Historical matter of facts 5. Historical position of Orthodox Judaism against Zionism 6. Zionism as Fascism 7. Jewish historicans about Zionism as ethnic purification 8. Condamnation by the UN
1. History
The national movement of the international Jews was initated by Theodor Herzl, born in Budapest, who had as objectives the solution to the Jewish Problem by creating a homeland. The first attempt of the Jews to concentrate was in the Romanian Bessarabia, which some Romanian Jews from Bessarabia, betraying the interests of their country, did everything to bring it under Bolshevik rule, under the name Jewish Soviet Republic.
2. Ideology
The theory regarding the "refounding" of the Jewish state in palestine was exaggerated because in the biblical time, in the Holy Land there were plenty of statelets, none being organized on national principles. The 12 tribes were just one of the amphictyonies of the Ancient World, the ethnic link between Dan's and Neftali's tribe being no closer than between any of the other local populations, like the Philistines.
The sionist reading of the bible is very selective and exclusively ideological. The Orthodox Rabbis reject the secular and ideological mix in reading the bible. It is a well know fact that even Avraam was not a Jew, but a Aramaic wanderer. Even Deuteronomy says "an Aramaic wanderer arammi abed abi, the famous..."
Unmasked this way, the Zionism is just a founding myth, which justifies, through the use of the Jews fooled by the buzzers of the propaganda, the occupation of some territories in which are applied racist politics of daily repressal, which don't respect the product of hundreds of civilization -- the Geneva convention, the 65 resolutions of the UN, the peace treaties, the human rights or even the Palestinians, as people.
One of the people who continued Hertzl [actually it's a derisive/depreciative version of Hertzl's name, using a certain Romanian suffix] was the Romanian scientist Moses Gaster, the favourite student of Bogdan Petriceicu Hasdeu, who was expelled from the Romanian Kingdom.
etc.
Berto 'd Sera wrote:
It's not abstract principles we deal with, it's real facts, as written in permalinks. Thank God nobody can clear the backups, so it will never be a problem to translate the material and let it speak for itself. Anyway, as I told to Francis and John right from the start, it's a BIG mistake to present insulated fragments in such cases. Most people cannot read the original, and as a result in a few minutes you're going to discuss about empty principles, instead of dealing with a naked fact, as it should be.
When you bring this to an international mailing list all we CAN deal with is general principles. I cannot say whether you or your opponents are correct if I cannot read Romanian.
I also strongly believe in the autonomy of each project. That implies that each project must be free to develop its own policies without outside interference. There are nevertheless top level principles which must be followed on all projects. The leadership of the project (the bureaucrats?) need to accept responsibility for this, and for the practical applications of the principles, and the Board needs to avoid micromanaging by taking action only in the most egregious of circumstances.
Ec
Hoi!
When you bring this to an international mailing list all we CAN deal with is general principles.
Sure you can, if you wish. I'm personally as interested in general theories as I am in pokemons :) So, sorry, if what you like is theory you chose the wrong partner :)
Berto 'd Sera Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
John Kavalos wrote:
There are some serious issues on Romanian Wikipedia, where a few Nazis have been taking over lots of articles, while the admins are supporting and defending them.
Hi, I'm a native Romanian speaker and a sysop at ro.wiki. Please help us clear the mess by: * providing links to relevant users and edits. One of the noisiest Nazi trolls, Irismeister, has been indefinitely banned two weeks ago. See http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilizator:Irismeister . * providing links backing your allegation that "the admins are supporting and defending" the Nazi editors. I will do my best to bring this to the attention of the ro.wiki community.
Yours,
Iulian [[:ro:Utilizator:Iulianu]]
A good place to start would be the list of articles on my User page.
Fran
On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 18:33 +0300, Iulian Dogariu wrote:
John Kavalos wrote:
There are some serious issues on Romanian Wikipedia, where a few Nazis have been taking over lots of articles, while the admins are supporting and defending them.
Hi, I'm a native Romanian speaker and a sysop at ro.wiki. Please help us clear the mess by:
- providing links to relevant users and edits. One of the noisiest Nazi
trolls, Irismeister, has been indefinitely banned two weeks ago. See http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilizator:Irismeister .
- providing links backing your allegation that "the admins are
supporting and defending" the Nazi editors. I will do my best to bring this to the attention of the ro.wiki community.
Yours,
Iulian [[:ro:Utilizator:Iulianu]]
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Francis Tyers wrote:
A good place to start would be the list of articles on my User page.
Thanks Fran.
I just started an AfD against [[Republica Socialistă Sovietică Evreiască]] ("Jewish Soviet Socialist Republic")
Those of you who can understand Romanian, please weigh in, at *http://tinyurl.com/3aqhmu .* Let's see how it goes from there.
i.
Hoi!
I will do my best to bring this to the attention of the ro.wiki community.
Thanks. This is the kind of thing we most need. Pls let know asap what happens with the articles mentioned in the lists that have been provided here.
Berto 'd Sera Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
How about [[:ro:User:Dacodava]], who was banned on the English Wikipedia for death threats (Among other things).
http://ro.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Discu%C5%A3ie:Crimele_%C5% 9Fi_ororile_comise_de_comuni%C5%9Ftii_evrei_%C3%AEmpotriva_rom%C3% A2nilor_%C3%AEn_timpul_evacu%C4%83rii_din_Basarabia_%C5%9Fi_Bucovina_% C3%AEn_1940&diff=prev&oldid=941208
He seems to be spreading this crap.
"Inventatorii comunismului au fost doi evrei din Germania: [[Karl Marx]] şi [[Friedrich Engels]]. Iti recomand si art [[Comunismul în lume şi evreii]], care o sa-ti raspunda la mult nelamuriri. [[Utilizator:Dacodava|Dacodava]] 11 aprilie 2007 17:49 (EEST)"
__the inventors of communism were two Jews from Germany: Karl Marx and Freidrich Engels. I recommend also the article [[World Communism and the Jews]], which will answer more the things which are not clear to you.__
Aside from the fact that Engels wasn't a Jew (actually one of the other articles on ro.wikipedia suggested that Stalin was a Jew!), this
Fran
On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 18:33 +0300, Iulian Dogariu wrote:
John Kavalos wrote:
There are some serious issues on Romanian Wikipedia, where a few Nazis have been taking over lots of articles, while the admins are supporting and defending them.
Hi, I'm a native Romanian speaker and a sysop at ro.wiki. Please help us clear the mess by:
- providing links to relevant users and edits. One of the noisiest Nazi
trolls, Irismeister, has been indefinitely banned two weeks ago. See http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilizator:Irismeister .
- providing links backing your allegation that "the admins are
supporting and defending" the Nazi editors. I will do my best to bring this to the attention of the ro.wiki community.
Yours,
Iulian [[:ro:Utilizator:Iulianu]]
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Here is an interesting AfD:
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pagini_de_%C5%9Fters/Crimele_%C5% 9Fi_ororile_comise_de_comuni%C5%9Ftii_evrei_%C3%AEmpotriva_rom%C3% A2nilor_%C3%AEn_timpul_evacu%C4%83rii_din_Basarabia_%C5%9Fi_Bucovina_% C3%AEn_1940
"Crimele şi ororile comise de comuniştii evrei împotriva românilor în timpul evacuării din Basarabia şi Bucovina în 1940"
Crimes and horrors commited by communist Jews against Romanians in the time of the evacuation of Bessarabia and Bukovina in 1940".
Pretty much everyone who voted against the deletion of this article is a lost cause and should probably be banned:
* Pixi * Roamata * Alex:D * Dacodava
Unfortunately, the first three of these users are admins, so you can imagine how difficult it might be! How long would an article with this title last on the English Wikipedia I wonder, and what of the admins who rushed to defend it?
Fran
On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 16:44 +0100, Francis Tyers wrote:
[snip]
Aside from the fact that Engels wasn't a Jew (actually one of the other articles on ro.wikipedia suggested that Stalin was a Jew!), this
user is involved with spreading the anti-Semitism.
Fran
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Francis Tyers wrote:
Here is an interesting AfD:
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pagini_de_%C5%9Fters/Crimele_%C5% 9Fi_ororile_comise_de_comuni%C5%9Ftii_evrei_%C3%AEmpotriva_rom%C3% A2nilor_%C3%AEn_timpul_evacu%C4%83rii_din_Basarabia_%C5%9Fi_Bucovina_% C3%AEn_1940
"Crimele şi ororile comise de comuniştii evrei împotriva românilor în timpul evacuării din Basarabia şi Bucovina în 1940"
Crimes and horrors commited by communist Jews against Romanians in the time of the evacuation of Bessarabia and Bukovina in 1940".
Pretty much everyone who voted against the deletion of this article is a lost cause and should probably be banned:
This is a frightful attitude! It's the kind of attitude that leads to the same kind of problem from the opposite side of the issue. Democratic systems do not support punishing people for voting the "wrong way" no matter how reprehensible the position they seem to support.
Ec
At least the other side of the issue isn't anti-Semitic. And another thing about the rise of the Nazis was the acceptance of other "points of view" that seemed reprehensible, because "everyone had a right to his or her opinion".
Now, I don't particularly care if these people want to espouse Holocaust denial, anti-Semitism, crackpot conspiracy theories... but should we really be giving them server space for it? Would they not be better off with a geocities page somewhere?
Fran
On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 11:15 -0700, Ray Saintonge wrote:
Francis Tyers wrote:
Here is an interesting AfD:
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pagini_de_%C5%9Fters/Crimele_%C5% 9Fi_ororile_comise_de_comuni%C5%9Ftii_evrei_%C3%AEmpotriva_rom%C3% A2nilor_%C3%AEn_timpul_evacu%C4%83rii_din_Basarabia_%C5%9Fi_Bucovina_% C3%AEn_1940
"Crimele şi ororile comise de comuniştii evrei împotriva românilor în timpul evacuării din Basarabia şi Bucovina în 1940"
Crimes and horrors commited by communist Jews against Romanians in the time of the evacuation of Bessarabia and Bukovina in 1940".
Pretty much everyone who voted against the deletion of this article is a lost cause and should probably be banned:
This is a frightful attitude! It's the kind of attitude that leads to the same kind of problem from the opposite side of the issue. Democratic systems do not support punishing people for voting the "wrong way" no matter how reprehensible the position they seem to support.
Ec
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
In case you didn't realise, this was tongue-in-cheek. Don't feel obliged to reply.
Fran
On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 19:25 +0100, Francis Tyers wrote:
At least the other side of the issue isn't anti-Semitic. And another thing about the rise of the Nazis was the acceptance of other "points of view" that seemed reprehensible, because "everyone had a right to his or her opinion".
Now, I don't particularly care if these people want to espouse Holocaust denial, anti-Semitism, crackpot conspiracy theories... but should we really be giving them server space for it? Would they not be better off with a geocities page somewhere?
Fran
On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 11:15 -0700, Ray Saintonge wrote:
Francis Tyers wrote:
Here is an interesting AfD:
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pagini_de_%C5%9Fters/Crimele_%C5% 9Fi_ororile_comise_de_comuni%C5%9Ftii_evrei_%C3%AEmpotriva_rom%C3% A2nilor_%C3%AEn_timpul_evacu%C4%83rii_din_Basarabia_%C5%9Fi_Bucovina_% C3%AEn_1940
"Crimele şi ororile comise de comuniştii evrei împotriva românilor în timpul evacuării din Basarabia şi Bucovina în 1940"
Crimes and horrors commited by communist Jews against Romanians in the time of the evacuation of Bessarabia and Bukovina in 1940".
Pretty much everyone who voted against the deletion of this article is a lost cause and should probably be banned:
This is a frightful attitude! It's the kind of attitude that leads to the same kind of problem from the opposite side of the issue. Democratic systems do not support punishing people for voting the "wrong way" no matter how reprehensible the position they seem to support.
Ec
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Francis Tyers wrote:
At least the other side of the issue isn't anti-Semitic. And another thing about the rise of the Nazis was the acceptance of other "points of view" that seemed reprehensible, because "everyone had a right to his or her opinion".
Now, I don't particularly care if these people want to espouse Holocaust denial, anti-Semitism, crackpot conspiracy theories... but should we really be giving them server space for it? Would they not be better off with a geocities page somewhere?
I would rarely feel obliged to respond. ;-)
As much as "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" may have been vicious nonsense, we cannot escape the facts that it was indeed published, and that many people were indeed influenced by its contents. NPOV is not founded on suppressing material, but on putting that material into perspective.
Ec
Democratic systems do not support punishing people for voting the "wrong way" no matter how reprehensible the position they seem to support.
Exactly. It's not about freedom; it's about damage to the trademark and to the general project. Anything else doesn't make any sense, because there will be as many ways to state what's "politically correct" as the amount of people to whom you ask an opinion.
We have a project and a result from it. If something damages it (as in this case) we must gather evidence of the financial damage involved. Anything else is ideological. The only quantitative approach you can get is money. Not very poetical, sure, but at least free it's free from ideology.
Bèrto ‘d Sèra Personagi dl’ann 2006 për l’arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojàotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
-----Original Message----- From: wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Ray Saintonge Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 9:15 PM To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] From Romanian Wikipedia, the Nazi Encyclopedia
Francis Tyers wrote:
Here is an interesting AfD:
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pagini_de_%C5%9Fters/Crimele_%C5% 9Fi_ororile_comise_de_comuni%C5%9Ftii_evrei_%C3%AEmpotriva_rom%C3% A2nilor_%C3%AEn_timpul_evacu%C4%83rii_din_Basarabia_%C5%9Fi_Bucovina_% C3%AEn_1940
"Crimele şi ororile comise de comuniştii evrei împotriva românilor în timpul evacuării din Basarabia şi Bucovina în 1940"
Crimes and horrors commited by communist Jews against Romanians in the time of the evacuation of Bessarabia and Bukovina in 1940".
Pretty much everyone who voted against the deletion of this article is a lost cause and should probably be banned:
This is a frightful attitude! It's the kind of attitude that leads to the same kind of problem from the opposite side of the issue. Democratic systems do not support punishing people for voting the "wrong way" no matter how reprehensible the position they seem to support.
Ec
_______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Berto 'd Sera wrote:
Democratic systems do not support punishing people for voting the "wrong way" no matter how reprehensible the position they seem to support.
Exactly. It's not about freedom; it's about damage to the trademark and to the general project. Anything else doesn't make any sense, because there will be as many ways to state what's "politically correct" as the amount of people to whom you ask an opinion.
We have a project and a result from it. If something damages it (as in this case) we must gather evidence of the financial damage involved. Anything else is ideological. The only quantitative approach you can get is money. Not very poetical, sure, but at least free it's free from ideology.
Can you, or anyone else, really come up with a formula that monetizes the alleged damages? I believe that the trademark and general project have an immune system that is strong enough to deal with these bacterial infections. There are better ways of dealing with a common cold or mosquito bite than with heroic actions that only serve to spread the infection. A single killer bee can inflict a nasty sting, but it takes a whole swarm to do any real damage.
You would probably do better looking at what rules there are on ro:wp for sourcing and reference. Civilized discussions accomplish more than edit wars, even when it seems at the beginning that one person has taken a completely outrageous stand.
Ec
John Kavalos wrote:
There are some serious issues on Romanian Wikipedia, where a few Nazis have been taking over lots of articles, while the admins are supporting and defending them.
I tried arguing, but it's useless with such a horde of freaks.
If you want to really deal with this you could begin by tempering your own language. When you start using terms like "Nazis" and "freaks" before even starting to explain the problem it gives the impression that there are such people on both sides of the issue.
The issue is spread on dozens of articles and I choose for example, one of them, the article on Zionism:
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sionism
The article on Zionism is completely written from an anti-semitic POV, and it even has a section of comparison between Zionism and Fascism, one about propaganda in the "corporatist press" and one about "ethnic purification".
Here are some excerpts:
"Zionism is not Judaism, not Semitism (sic!), but a racist ideology which glorifies violence, just like Fascism"
Using only that sentence as an example one may very well ask at what point it becomes unacceptable. To me the last part of the sentence beginning with "which" would be extremely difficult to justify. At the same time it is fair to point out that certain groups do believe this as long as that fact is adequately referenced. Some valid arguments may exist supporting the notion of a "racist ideology", but those putting them forward would do well to define just what they mean by the expression. Leaving aside the purely linguistic issue of whether "Semitism" can exist separate from the term "anti-Semitism", I have no problem with the first part of the sentence. Presumably that would be followed by an explanation of just what is meant.
I'm not going to comment on the other quotes, because I have no intention of viewing their context.
There's absolutely nothing that can be kept from that article. Everything is just the lowest kind of anti-semitic propaganda.
So I tried to revert to an older explaining that it's written from a neo-nazi POV. I got a warning for that, it was reverted and protected.
Your tone diminishes the impact of your POV. It leaves me wondering whether you engaged in illegitimate tactics to achieve legitimate ends.
I don't want to waste my time negotiating with Nazis. Any solution, apart from stopping editing Romanian Wikipedia?
Yes, take a more moderate approach to the problem.
Ec
wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org