Milos Rancic wrote:
You didn't read last messages well? ;)
Mark said that he supported Zlatiborian hoax because of fun.
Yes, I have. My point was that the very mention of such words can have unwanted side-effects, no matter if they are meant ironically or seriously. Especially when the irony is not obvious to everybody at first sight.
Arbeo
On 11/10/05, Arbeo M arbeo_m@yahoo.de wrote:
Mark Williamson wrote:
It wasn't a real problem until Milos and the other anti-Zlatiborians decided to make a big fuss to try
to >prevent the glorious people of Zlatibor from getting the >Wikipedia they so richly deserve in
their
beautiful >native language, and for petty political reasons.
Hi Mark!
The other day I wrote that Milos ought to be a
little
bit more tolerant of various opinions (including yours) here.
On the other hand, I don't think using words like "nationalists", "oppressors" or "anti-Zlatiborians" will help establishing a good atmosphere of
discussion
here when the issues themselves are difficult
enough.
Best,
Arbeo
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On 11/12/05, Arbeo M arbeo_m@yahoo.de wrote:
Yes, I have. My point was that the very mention of such words can have unwanted side-effects, no matter if they are meant ironically or seriously. Especially when the irony is not obvious to everybody at first sight.
I can agree with you up to the some level...
If someone argues for something without _any_ knowledge about cultures which are included in that "something", (s)he is a fool. If (s)he is a young person, (s)he can learn something in the future and stop being a fool. If (s)he is a mature fool, it is better that society isolate such person to prevent any further damage.
If someone argues for something only because of fun AND without any knowledge about cultures which are included in that "something", (s)he is NOT ONLY a fool, but a very dangerous person. If (s)he is a young person, I hope that (s)he can learn something and that (s)he would not be such person in the future. For such adult persons I think that the less damage is to kill her/him than to wait to see mass graves because of such "Innocent games".
Neoliberal social POV is the biggest bullshit as I know. (And Mark is highly influenced with that kind of bullshit.) It is trying to merge cultures without any knowledge about these cultures. This is the clear example of colonialist behaviour which is deep in the souls of (almost) all Westerners.
And this is not related only to Balkans... I saw the same conversation about Low Saxon. Even it is reasonable to start to work on computational translator between Dutch and German one, it is not reasonable to force people to work together in this moment. The same is for Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian Wikipedias.
And someone is making an irony about our problems? And (s)he is far a way of our problems?
If someone argues for something without _any_ knowledge about cultures which are included in that "something", (s)he is a fool. If (s)he is a young person, (s)he can learn something in the future and stop being a fool. If (s)he is a mature fool, it is better that society isolate such person to prevent any further damage.
Alright, it seems quite clear that you're discussing me here without mentioning names.
Again, you're assuming I don't have "_any_" knowledge of which cultures are included.
As regards your "better that society isolate such person", that idea strikes me as very Naziistic -- isolate all of the people who are a harm to society as you judge them to be, even if it's something really trivial or silly.
It's not as if people who do the things in questions are murderers, or rapists, or even mentally insane.
If someone argues for something only because of fun AND without any knowledge about cultures which are included in that "something", (s)he is NOT ONLY a fool, but a very dangerous person. If (s)he is a young person, I hope that (s)he can learn something and that (s)he would not be such person in the future. For such adult persons I think that the less damage is to kill her/him than to wait to see mass graves because of such "Innocent games".
First of all, as I noted many times before, this discussion is _not_ for fun. Your continued insistence to the contrary seems to me to be an attempt to mock the glorious people of Mt Zlatibor, making you an anti-Zlatiborian. For that, you will not be judged kindly when the day of judgement is upon us.
It strikes me as anti-human to propose KILLING any adult who argues in a joking manner and without any knowledge about it... Really, that's just plain SADISTIC. Insane, really. If anybody needs their head checked, I'd say it's you -- talking an awful lot about killing people here where it's not really relevant to the topic at hand.
Neoliberal social POV is the biggest bullshit as I know. (And Mark is highly influenced with that kind of bullshit.) It is trying to merge cultures without any knowledge about these cultures. This is the clear example of colonialist behaviour which is deep in the souls of (almost) all Westerners.
Nobody said anything about trying to merge _cultures_. There are not Wikipedias for _cultures_. Wikipedias are created for LANGUAGES. Languages and cultures are two very separate entities. Spanish is spoken by the majority of Mexicans as well as the majority of Spaniards, and yet their cultures are as different as night and day. Portuguese is shared between Portugal and Brasil, and yet they are very amazingly different. The differences reflected within the Francophonie, the Commonwealth, the CIS, and other such groups of places based on the languages they share are also extreme.
Language can be either a tool to unite or divide. Now, it is linguistically impossible that 20 years ago, there was one language, and today, it is 3. The process is much, much, slower than that. Separate cultures, sure -- Bosnian and Croatian cultures are clearly very different. But separate languages -- definitely not, it's a ludicrous suggestion.
And this is not related only to Balkans... I saw the same conversation about Low Saxon. Even it is reasonable to start to work on computational translator between Dutch and German one, it is not reasonable to force people to work together in this moment. The same is for Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian Wikipedias.
What was it you said earlier about arguing about things we don't know about? If you don't want to be a hypocrite, perhaps you should recuse yourself as regards Low Saxon.
And someone is making an irony about our problems? And (s)he is far a way of our problems?
Let me guess -- their skulls should be bashed in? They should be killed? Or some other similarly sadistic and gruesome fate which is clearly undeserved for an offense so minor??
Mark
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
With regards to the latest drivel Mark wrote I want to call on everyone to boycott Mark. He is a pre-puberescant prick imho.
Waerth/Walter
Mark Williamson wrote:
If someone argues for something without _any_ knowledge about cultures which are included in that "something", (s)he is a fool. If (s)he is a young person, (s)he can learn something in the future and stop being a fool. If (s)he is a mature fool, it is better that society isolate such person to prevent any further damage.
Alright, it seems quite clear that you're discussing me here without mentioning names.
Again, you're assuming I don't have "_any_" knowledge of which cultures are included.
As regards your "better that society isolate such person", that idea strikes me as very Naziistic -- isolate all of the people who are a harm to society as you judge them to be, even if it's something really trivial or silly.
It's not as if people who do the things in questions are murderers, or rapists, or even mentally insane.
If someone argues for something only because of fun AND without any knowledge about cultures which are included in that "something", (s)he is NOT ONLY a fool, but a very dangerous person. If (s)he is a young person, I hope that (s)he can learn something and that (s)he would not be such person in the future. For such adult persons I think that the less damage is to kill her/him than to wait to see mass graves because of such "Innocent games".
First of all, as I noted many times before, this discussion is _not_ for fun. Your continued insistence to the contrary seems to me to be an attempt to mock the glorious people of Mt Zlatibor, making you an anti-Zlatiborian. For that, you will not be judged kindly when the day of judgement is upon us.
It strikes me as anti-human to propose KILLING any adult who argues in a joking manner and without any knowledge about it... Really, that's just plain SADISTIC. Insane, really. If anybody needs their head checked, I'd say it's you -- talking an awful lot about killing people here where it's not really relevant to the topic at hand.
Neoliberal social POV is the biggest bullshit as I know. (And Mark is highly influenced with that kind of bullshit.) It is trying to merge cultures without any knowledge about these cultures. This is the clear example of colonialist behaviour which is deep in the souls of (almost) all Westerners.
Nobody said anything about trying to merge _cultures_. There are not Wikipedias for _cultures_. Wikipedias are created for LANGUAGES. Languages and cultures are two very separate entities. Spanish is spoken by the majority of Mexicans as well as the majority of Spaniards, and yet their cultures are as different as night and day. Portuguese is shared between Portugal and Brasil, and yet they are very amazingly different. The differences reflected within the Francophonie, the Commonwealth, the CIS, and other such groups of places based on the languages they share are also extreme.
Language can be either a tool to unite or divide. Now, it is linguistically impossible that 20 years ago, there was one language, and today, it is 3. The process is much, much, slower than that. Separate cultures, sure -- Bosnian and Croatian cultures are clearly very different. But separate languages -- definitely not, it's a ludicrous suggestion.
And this is not related only to Balkans... I saw the same conversation about Low Saxon. Even it is reasonable to start to work on computational translator between Dutch and German one, it is not reasonable to force people to work together in this moment. The same is for Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian Wikipedias.
What was it you said earlier about arguing about things we don't know about? If you don't want to be a hypocrite, perhaps you should recuse yourself as regards Low Saxon.
And someone is making an irony about our problems? And (s)he is far a way of our problems?
Let me guess -- their skulls should be bashed in? They should be killed? Or some other similarly sadistic and gruesome fate which is clearly undeserved for an offense so minor??
Mark
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Well, I think this whole Zlatiborian hoax has wasted a lot of time, and I still don't understand why Mark is going about it as if it's still a legitimate language. Wikipedia is a flexible place, and there's nothing wrong with having a joke, but I think this has become very bad-taste now. I would propose deleting it from Requests for new languages.
Ronline
On 11/13/05, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
With regards to the latest drivel Mark wrote I want to call on everyone to boycott Mark. He is a pre-puberescant prick imho.
Waerth/Walter
Mark Williamson wrote:
If someone argues for something without _any_ knowledge about cultures which are included in that "something", (s)he is a fool. If (s)he is a young person, (s)he can learn something in the future and stop being a fool. If (s)he is a mature fool, it is better that society isolate such person to prevent any further damage.
Alright, it seems quite clear that you're discussing me here without mentioning names.
Again, you're assuming I don't have "_any_" knowledge of which cultures are included.
As regards your "better that society isolate such person", that idea strikes me as very Naziistic -- isolate all of the people who are a harm to society as you judge them to be, even if it's something really trivial or silly.
It's not as if people who do the things in questions are murderers, or rapists, or even mentally insane.
If someone argues for something only because of fun AND without any knowledge about cultures which are included in that "something", (s)he is NOT ONLY a fool, but a very dangerous person. If (s)he is a young person, I hope that (s)he can learn something and that (s)he would not be such person in the future. For such adult persons I think that the less damage is to kill her/him than to wait to see mass graves because of such "Innocent games".
First of all, as I noted many times before, this discussion is _not_ for fun. Your continued insistence to the contrary seems to me to be an attempt to mock the glorious people of Mt Zlatibor, making you an anti-Zlatiborian. For that, you will not be judged kindly when the day of judgement is upon us.
It strikes me as anti-human to propose KILLING any adult who argues in a joking manner and without any knowledge about it... Really, that's just plain SADISTIC. Insane, really. If anybody needs their head checked, I'd say it's you -- talking an awful lot about killing people here where it's not really relevant to the topic at hand.
Neoliberal social POV is the biggest bullshit as I know. (And Mark is highly influenced with that kind of bullshit.) It is trying to merge cultures without any knowledge about these cultures. This is the clear example of colonialist behaviour which is deep in the souls of (almost) all Westerners.
Nobody said anything about trying to merge _cultures_. There are not Wikipedias for _cultures_. Wikipedias are created for LANGUAGES. Languages and cultures are two very separate entities. Spanish is spoken by the majority of Mexicans as well as the majority of Spaniards, and yet their cultures are as different as night and day. Portuguese is shared between Portugal and Brasil, and yet they are very amazingly different. The differences reflected within the Francophonie, the Commonwealth, the CIS, and other such groups of places based on the languages they share are also extreme.
Language can be either a tool to unite or divide. Now, it is linguistically impossible that 20 years ago, there was one language, and today, it is 3. The process is much, much, slower than that. Separate cultures, sure -- Bosnian and Croatian cultures are clearly very different. But separate languages -- definitely not, it's a ludicrous suggestion.
And this is not related only to Balkans... I saw the same conversation about Low Saxon. Even it is reasonable to start to work on computational translator between Dutch and German one, it is not reasonable to force people to work together in this moment. The same is for Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian Wikipedias.
What was it you said earlier about arguing about things we don't know about? If you don't want to be a hypocrite, perhaps you should recuse yourself as regards Low Saxon.
And someone is making an irony about our problems? And (s)he is far a way of our problems?
Let me guess -- their skulls should be bashed in? They should be killed? Or some other similarly sadistic and gruesome fate which is clearly undeserved for an offense so minor??
Mark
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) wrote:
Well, I think this whole Zlatiborian hoax has wasted a lot of time, and I still don't understand why Mark is going about it as if it's still a legitimate language. Wikipedia is a flexible place, and there's nothing wrong with having a joke, but I think this has become very bad-taste now. I would propose deleting it from Requests for new languages.
I think a boycott is not at all suitable here.
Gerrit.
Well, I don't know what you guys mean by a boycott, anyway. But I think boycotts are quite wrong, yes. Still, I think this Zlatiborian hoax must be finalised once and for all, which will need some explaining from Node.
On 11/13/05, Gerrit Holl gerrit@nl.linux.org wrote:
Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) wrote:
Well, I think this whole Zlatiborian hoax has wasted a lot of time, and
I
still don't understand why Mark is going about it as if it's still a legitimate language. Wikipedia is a flexible place, and there's nothing wrong with having a joke, but I think this has become very bad-taste
now. I
would propose deleting it from Requests for new languages.
I think a boycott is not at all suitable here.
Gerrit.
-- Temperature in Luleå, Norrbotten, Sweden: | Current temperature 05-11-13 12:59:52 1.1 degrees Celsius ( 34.1F) | -- Det finns inte dåligt väder, bara dåliga kläder. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On 13/11/05, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
With regards to the latest drivel Mark wrote I want to call on everyone to boycott Mark. He is a pre-puberescant prick imho.
I'm going to pretend you didn't say the last sentence, and reply instead to the rest of your e-mail.
I'm not sure which parts of my e-mail are "drivel" -- are you just referring to the Zlatiborian part, or all of it? I find it hard to believe that you would agree with Milos on his beliefs about how people should be isolated from society or even killed for their attitudes.
Mark
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
Mark Williamson wrote:
On 13/11/05, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
With regards to the latest drivel Mark wrote I want to call on everyone to boycott Mark. He is a pre-puberescant prick imho.
I'm going to pretend you didn't say the last sentence, and reply instead to the rest of your e-mail.
I'm not sure which parts of my e-mail are "drivel" -- are you just referring to the Zlatiborian part, or all of it? I find it hard to believe that you would agree with Milos on his beliefs about how people should be isolated from society or even killed for their attitudes.
Well, you told me that the "anti-Zlatiborians will be first against the wall when the revolution comes" (or words to that effect); who's got the moral high ground now?
No, the point is not to boycott Mark!
While Mark did irritated me (and as I did talk against some of Mark's foolish behaviour), I was never talking that Mark is the most important problem. The most important problem is community response about one hoax!
And I would like to point now with a few sentences as well as I would like that someone hear/read it:
1. Political decisions about some scientific (even sociological) fact is very very bad. We should have comity for Wikipedias in new languages. (I.e., I hope that we would not make political decision that Earth is flat.)
2. The most irritating and the most dangerous Mark's characteristic is that he doesn't have responsibility about his steps inside of other cultures. Wiki(p|m)edian community is growing into global cultural movement and community response to such things should be strong: (1) while separatism and nationalism are far a way of the most of Westernernes, (2) while I left 10 years of my life inside of such bullshit and I am very nervous when someone attacks me on that field, (3) in some cultures this is the question of life and death. (Note that it can be something other then separatism and nationalism.)
And Wikipedian community would be faced very soon with communication with such communities. And this means that we should prepare for it.
Those are the points.
And about Mark: I am sure that some people know him better. Please talk with him. He has enough of time to change himself.
On 11/13/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) alphasigmax@gmail.com wrote:
Mark Williamson wrote:
On 13/11/05, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
With regards to the latest drivel Mark wrote I want to call on everyone to boycott Mark. He is a pre-puberescant prick imho.
I'm going to pretend you didn't say the last sentence, and reply instead to the rest of your e-mail.
I'm not sure which parts of my e-mail are "drivel" -- are you just referring to the Zlatiborian part, or all of it? I find it hard to believe that you would agree with Milos on his beliefs about how people should be isolated from society or even killed for their attitudes.
Well, you told me that the "anti-Zlatiborians will be first against the wall when the revolution comes" (or words to that effect); who's got the moral high ground now?
-- Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Milos says the point is to not boycott me, but he is clearly ignoring all of my e-mails, 100%.
On 13/11/05, Milos Rancic millosh@mutualaid.org wrote:
While Mark did irritated me (and as I did talk against some of Mark's foolish behaviour), I was never talking that Mark is the most important problem. The most important problem is community response about one hoax!
Right. The community, whose response was already enough that a Zlatiborian WP would never be created, BEFORE any non-Zlatiborian Serbians voted.
- Political decisions about some scientific (even sociological) fact
is very very bad. We should have comity for Wikipedias in new languages. (I.e., I hope that we would not make political decision that Earth is flat.)
In that case, quit saying how "nessecary" separate WPs in the (former) Yugoslavian "languages" are, since their separateness as actual languages is based entirely on political and social considerations rather than scientific.
- The most irritating and the most dangerous Mark's characteristic is
that he doesn't have responsibility about his steps inside of other cultures. Wiki(p|m)edian community is growing into global cultural movement and community response to such things should be strong: (1) while separatism and nationalism are far a way of the most of Westernernes, (2) while I left 10 years of my life inside of such bullshit and I am very nervous when someone attacks me on that field, (3) in some cultures this is the question of life and death. (Note that it can be something other then separatism and nationalism.)
...you're making a lot of assumptions about "Westernernes".
And about Mark: I am sure that some people know him better. Please talk with him. He has enough of time to change himself.
And I am sure that there are people who know you well enough to convince you to not talk anymore about what sorts of people should be killed or isolated from society for their opinions and expression of them.
Do you honestly think that by me supporting a Zlatiborian WP, Zlatiborians and Serbians will suddenly break out into war? Such wars do not happen just because a 16-year-old member of the Wikimedia community supports a new Wikipedia. And if they do, I don't think life would be much worth living anymore...
I mean, even if Jimbo Wales said that China sucks, the world is flat, and that South America should be nuked, that shouldn't start a war.
Mark
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
On 11/14/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Milos says the point is to not boycott me, but he is clearly ignoring all of my e-mails, 100%.
I don't ignore you. I just don't know what to say to you.
...you're making a lot of assumptions about "Westernernes".
He is not making a lot of assumptions about Westerners. He is saying the truth. Just to hark back to the blocking of my provider by wikipedia a few months ago. Suggestions were made to me by some very well regarded wikipedians that clearly showed that they had no idea whatsoever as to what it is like to life in a country which is not their own. Yes in England etc. those suggestions would have made sense. But in Thailand or most other countries they do not. Most people on this list and in wikipedia clearly think from a western background and show that they do not understand that the reality/situations in most countries on this planet differ from the realities they grew up with/in. And I am saying this as a Westerner. Milos is hitting the nail on the head.
Every day here in Thailand I see Westerners, even those whom lived here for more than 25 years, making total asses of themselves. Offcourse the tourists can be forgiven ... partly. But many people should know better. and when you tell them they should respect some things. Even highly educated westerners would answer that they see the Thai way as inferior and that they feel they should change to become more Western (read the send in letters sections in the nation newspaper on the internet these statements appear in there regularly bitching about everything in Thailand: www.nationmultimedia.com) . To all Brits forgive me for saying this ... but they are especially irritating ... most Brits that I know here from very highly educated ones with very responsible jobs down to your beer belly tourist feel that everyone who doesn't speak English has some mental defficiency and is second rate. This is not just a mentally problem over here, but also in the west. As I told my friend once: "with a pension, social security, healthcare and never having suffered from disease, hunger or anything it is very easy to criticize other countries and other cultures ..... isn't it?" (this is an ironic statement which might not come through as it was translated from Dutch and I am not a native English speaker).
Mark it is you who doesn't know what he is speaking about. You might have a lot of knowledge gained form reading books etc. But it is all theoretical knowledge. You do not have any practical knowledge. You are looking at your own field in absolutes through rose colored glasses, not thinking about or having feelings for the somewhat different realities in real life. Your mails sound good in theory at a number of occassions. But your theories are often impossible realities.
Walter/Waerth
...you're making a lot of assumptions about "Westernernes".
He is not making a lot of assumptions about Westerners. He is saying the truth. Just to hark back to the blocking of my provider by wikipedia a few months ago. Suggestions were made to me by some very well regarded wikipedians that clearly showed that they had no idea whatsoever as to what it is like to life in a country which is not their own. Yes in England etc. those suggestions would have made sense. But in Thailand or most other countries they do not. Most people on this list and in wikipedia clearly think from a western background and show that they do not understand that the reality/situations in most countries on this planet differ from the realities they grew up with/in. And I am saying this as a Westerner. Milos is hitting the nail on the head.
Every day here in Thailand I see Westerners, even those whom lived here for more than 25 years, making total asses of themselves. Offcourse the tourists can be forgiven ... partly. But many people should know better. and when you tell them they should respect some things. Even highly educated westerners would answer that they see the Thai way as inferior and that they feel they should change to become more Western (read the send in letters sections in the nation newspaper on the internet these statements appear in there regularly bitching about everything in Thailand: www.nationmultimedia.com) . To all Brits forgive me for saying this ... but they are especially irritating ... most Brits that I know here from very highly educated ones with very responsible jobs down to your beer belly tourist feel that everyone who doesn't speak English has some mental defficiency and is second rate. This is not just a mentally problem over here, but also in the west. As I told my friend once: "with a pension, social security, healthcare and never having suffered from disease, hunger or anything it is very easy to criticize other countries and other cultures ..... isn't it?" (this is an ironic statement which might not come through as it was translated from Dutch and I am not a native English speaker).
Mark it is you who doesn't know what he is speaking about. You might have a lot of knowledge gained form reading books etc. But it is all theoretical knowledge. You do not have any practical knowledge. You are looking at your own field in absolutes through rose colored glasses, not thinking about or having feelings for the somewhat different realities in real life. Your mails sound good in theory at a number of occassions. But your theories are often impossible realities.
Walter/Waerth
Mark, I was very angry while I was thinking that you are much older then you are. But, when I realize what was me in your age, I can say that you have great advantage to become a good and qualitative person in the future. You are an important member of Wikipedian community, you are working a lot and with good faith and I am sure that you would become just more and more important community member through the time.
In the most of my emails your behaviour was just an example which I used to show others what is wrong in community. I don't think that you are a dangerous person (as I thought while I was thinking that you are much older), but older persons who are better organized then you can be real thereat to the community.
The idea about Wikipedian community is to grow up and to be independent of Jimbo's power to decide what is right in the moment when community doesn't have any response. Community should grow up and I am talking about this. I could send an email to Jimbo with the words "Jimbo, please stop the parody about Zlatiborian!", but this is not the right way for solving problems. Because the problem would not be to have Zlatiborian Wikipedia, the problem would be to have a number of tries of making non-existing language Wikipedias. And this is the matter of community, not the matter of constant Jimbo's decisions.
On 11/14/05, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
Your mails sound good in theory at a number of occassions. But your theories are often impossible realities.
Maybe I am asking too much, but I would try it :)
And I would use Mark as an example once again, but, Mark, this is not about you personally.
When Mark says: "This has to be done in this way and it should produce that",
1. "This has to be done" means that Mark is young; 2. "in this way" means that he has "colonialist arrogance"; and 3. "it should produce that" means that Mark is Westerner.
(To be clear: A lot of other cultures are also aggressive such Western is. But, I am not now talking to Aztecks nor to Hutus nor to Balkanians. I am talking now on the list where Westerners are great majority for sure.)
The third part is Walters "sounds good in theory", too :)
What about people who don't want the same as Westerners want?
So, all of us should think a lot before any step made from the power position. This power can be factual, but it can be "social", too.
OK, now you're just spewing anti-Western rubbish. I am an opponent of colonialism. End of discussion.
Mark
On 14/11/05, Milos Rancic millosh@mutualaid.org wrote:
Mark, I was very angry while I was thinking that you are much older then you are. But, when I realize what was me in your age, I can say that you have great advantage to become a good and qualitative person in the future. You are an important member of Wikipedian community, you are working a lot and with good faith and I am sure that you would become just more and more important community member through the time.
In the most of my emails your behaviour was just an example which I used to show others what is wrong in community. I don't think that you are a dangerous person (as I thought while I was thinking that you are much older), but older persons who are better organized then you can be real thereat to the community.
The idea about Wikipedian community is to grow up and to be independent of Jimbo's power to decide what is right in the moment when community doesn't have any response. Community should grow up and I am talking about this. I could send an email to Jimbo with the words "Jimbo, please stop the parody about Zlatiborian!", but this is not the right way for solving problems. Because the problem would not be to have Zlatiborian Wikipedia, the problem would be to have a number of tries of making non-existing language Wikipedias. And this is the matter of community, not the matter of constant Jimbo's decisions.
On 11/14/05, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
Your mails sound good in theory at a number of occassions. But your theories are often impossible realities.
Maybe I am asking too much, but I would try it :)
And I would use Mark as an example once again, but, Mark, this is not about you personally.
When Mark says: "This has to be done in this way and it should produce that",
- "This has to be done" means that Mark is young;
- "in this way" means that he has "colonialist arrogance"; and
- "it should produce that" means that Mark is Westerner.
(To be clear: A lot of other cultures are also aggressive such Western is. But, I am not now talking to Aztecks nor to Hutus nor to Balkanians. I am talking now on the list where Westerners are great majority for sure.)
The third part is Walters "sounds good in theory", too :)
What about people who don't want the same as Westerners want?
So, all of us should think a lot before any step made from the power position. This power can be factual, but it can be "social", too. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
Mark Williamson wrote:
OK, now you're just spewing anti-Western rubbish. I am an opponent of colonialism. End of discussion.
Mark
Mark .......
You just do not know when to stop don't you. Milos send a thoughtfull email and what do you react with? With this rubbish?
Waerth/Walter
Because that's what it was: anti-Western rubbish. He made blanket statements about Westerners, etc., etc., etc.
Just because some people didn't understand the problems with blocking open proxies in Thailand, does not mean _nobody_ understood. If you'll recall, I supported what you said back then...
And I really wouldn't consider his e-mail thoughtful. It was a pile of rubbish about what is wrong with Westerners, and by extension me, etc. etc etc
Mark
On 14/11/05, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
Mark Williamson wrote:
OK, now you're just spewing anti-Western rubbish. I am an opponent of colonialism. End of discussion.
Mark
Mark .......
You just do not know when to stop don't you. Milos send a thoughtfull email and what do you react with? With this rubbish?
Waerth/Walter _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
Mark Williamson wrote:
Because that's what it was: anti-Western rubbish. He made blanket statements about Westerners, etc., etc., etc.
Just because some people didn't understand the problems with blocking open proxies in Thailand, does not mean _nobody_ understood. If you'll recall, I supported what you said back then...
And I really wouldn't consider his e-mail thoughtful. It was a pile of rubbish about what is wrong with Westerners, and by extension me, etc. etc etc
Oh common that is crazy and you know it. It is very simple. What you in Midwest USA feel is the truth and is the right way of handling things ....... somebody in Mexico might frown upon. Even people in the UK might frown upon it. You should learn that not everybody on this earth thinks alike nor is raised alike nor considers the same things truths that you consider truths ..... that is a simple fact of life. Learn to life with it instead of keeping on telling people that you are right all the time and people should listen to you. You simply didn't get the point of my previous email it was not just about that issue it was a general tendency which I addressed. Since I am not a native USA-English speaker I blame it on my insufficient grasp of using the USA-English language in an email to convince you of my point.
Waerth/Walter
On 14/11/05, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
Oh common that is crazy and you know it. It is very simple. What you in
If I knew it were crazy, do you think I'd waste my time writing it? Or perhaps I have some strange ulterior motive in writing "crazy" things?
Midwest USA feel is the truth and is the right way of handling things
Arizona is not in the midwest. Arizona is in the southwest. The midwest is a very different region. Many things about the Southwest make it differnet -- demographics, linguistic diversity, climate, physical geography. My impression of the midwest (though not a correct one) is that it's just one big prarieland. I think a widespread impression of the Southwest is that it's just one big desert (not true either).
The Midwest means states east of New Mexico and west of, say, Kentucky. I think. See, if I say something I'm unsure of, I make a note of it so people will know that.
....... somebody in Mexico might frown upon. Even people in the UK might frown upon it. You should learn that not everybody on this earth thinks alike nor is raised alike nor considers the same things truths that you consider truths ..... that is a simple fact of life. Learn to life with
This is quite obvious. You continue to act as if you have complete and total insight into my mind. You seem to think you know which things I know, and which things I don't. I would say that I know quite a bit more about cultural diversity than you think.
I'm willing to bet that you think cannibalism is inherently wrong in most situations. Well, I don't. You may well think the same thing about incest. I don't. I believe that these taboos in most Western cultures are by no means universal -- they are considered OK things to do in some cultures, and I accept that.
Cultural imperialism is wanting to impose your values on other cultures, such as forbidding a culture that practices cannibalism or ritual human sacrifice from doing these things because you say they are wrong.
How emotions are expressed, what is OK for different people to do, how people should act in different situations, and the expected reaction to certain stimuli varies from culture to culture.
This is because each culture to a certain extent shares a collective experience. You, being from the Netherlands, are influenced by experiences that I never had due to my cultural background. This effects every single one of our opinions, decisions, and actions.
I am not ignorant of this fact.
it instead of keeping on telling people that you are right all the time and people should listen to you. You simply didn't get the point of my
Please quote where I told somebody that I was right and they should listen to me.
previous email it was not just about that issue it was a general tendency which I addressed. Since I am not a native USA-English speaker I blame it on my insufficient grasp of using the USA-English language in an email to convince you of my point.
Or, maybe I just disagree with you... you're being a hypocrite of sorts here. Your entire thinking here seems to be that I'm bad/wrong/should be boycotted/whatever because I don't accept that people can disagree with me... and yet, when I disagree with you, you blame it on your poor mastery of English. Well, I understand what you're saying perfectly, I think, but I still feel it's shallow and presumptive of things you can't possibly know (what I'm thinking, for example).
Mark
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
On 11/14/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
OK, now you're just spewing anti-Western rubbish. I am an opponent of colonialism. End of discussion.
Mark, I think that I wrote:
(To be clear: A lot of other cultures are also aggressive such Western is. But, I am not now talking to Aztecks nor to Hutus nor to Balkanians. I am talking now on the list where Westerners are great majority for sure.)
So, I am anti-*? ;)
I have one suggestion/ask for you: May you start to talk with people from Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian communities and to try to understand all of us? We need one Westerner to talk with us about problems related to our past and, of course, in hope that we would be able to make NPOV pages about our near and far past not only on English Wikipedia, but on Wikipedias in our languages.
Just keep in mind that it is very important to understand all of us. Also, we don't need solution for tomorrow; this is a long time work.
If you need any help while you are doing this, feel free to ask me.
On 14/11/05, Milos Rancic millosh@mutualaid.org wrote:
When Mark says: "This has to be done in this way and it should produce that",
Find me a single occasion on which I said that something _had_ to be done in a certain way.
I've certainly said things that I think should be done, or that I hope will be done, but never that _have_ to be done.
For example, I said that I _hoped_ that the sr:, hr:, and bs: Wikipedias could merge eventually. I didn't say "It must be done".
These are problems with YOUR interpretation, NOT with me.
Mark
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
Well, you told me that the "anti-Zlatiborians will be first against the wall when the revolution comes" (or words to that effect); who's got the moral high ground now?
Alphax, the difference here is between a suggestion of what _should_ be, and a statement of what _is_. Thus, while it's not at all unacceptable to talk about how anti-Zlatiborians will face harsh punishment at the hands of a higher power, it is certainly unacceptable to suggest that such-and-such people _should_ be shot (though I must admit I've said this before).
Mark
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
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