Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I wanted to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO 639-3 code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.
The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a language group".
The fact is: it is both.
The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for the dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like Wp/rif, Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because they have the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".
But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber language (in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan constitution and is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and is taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for considering it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects).
So my questions are:
-How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber project and approve it?
-What about the option of "macro-language"?
For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard Arabic language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic dialects (Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with its own ISO 639-3 language code.
There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber language on Facebook and elsewhere.
I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the Wp/ber project on a regular basis.
The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber
The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria and the Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.
I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish Wikipedia or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is automatically and identically available in two alphabets.
This is the link for the Wp/ber project:
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut
In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard pan-Berber specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French linguistic institutes):
http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf
It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of linguistics terminology.
Best regards,
Moubarik Belkasim https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hoi, There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro language consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only spoken in Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s) subsume all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much. http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16
The language policy does not allow for created languages and it does not differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.
The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the merits are for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but typically it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber language is taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue of it being a constructed language quite a bit.
It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language code for this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental support for this. Thanks, Gerard
On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . tussna@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I wanted to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO 639-3 code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.
The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a language group".
The fact is: it is both.
The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for the dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like Wp/rif, Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because they have the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".
But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber language (in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan constitution and is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and is taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for considering it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects).
So my questions are:
-How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber project and approve it?
-What about the option of "macro-language"?
For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard Arabic language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic dialects (Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with its own ISO 639-3 language code.
There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber language on Facebook and elsewhere.
I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the Wp/ber project on a regular basis.
The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber
The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria and the Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.
I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish Wikipedia or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is automatically and identically available in two alphabets.
This is the link for the Wp/ber project:
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut
In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard pan-Berber specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French linguistic institutes):
http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf
It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of linguistics terminology.
Best regards,
Moubarik Belkasim https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hoi Gerard,
Thanks a lot for your quick reply.
Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across 10 North African and Saharan countries.
But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya, Niger, Mali...).
I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course, all Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation and development.
In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber come from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in the Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved there.
An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not being created by the governments.
This is not some Esperanto-type of language.
Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists, educators, and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and institutes, in which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard language worthy of being used in mainstream media and education.
In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a standardized form of the dialects, encompassing all dialectal synonyms and variations while putting them in a standardized spelling and style.
Applying for an ISO 639-3 code for Standard Berber / macro-language is the obvious solution. But it takes a huge amount of time and bureaucracy. And those guys that regulate the codes are not great communicators.
A friend of mine (very busy with Berber) has been talking to SIL about all this for some time now. And he tells me that it is going to take a lot of time to get the code.
So I was hoping for the "wriggle room" you mentioned to get this through.
There is a good amount of documentation in standard Berber: dictionaries, government school books from Morocco and Algeria, grammar studies on standard Berber, recently published children's stories, manuals...etc. And there are 2 Berber-language TV channels in Morocco and Algeria broadcasting a lot of material in pretty much standrdized Berber (especially news programs).
I am very sure that when the language committee examines the documentation, they will be convinced of Standard Berber and of the viability of the Wp/ber project.
Could you please tell me where (or to which persons) exactly should I send the request and the documentation?
Thanks a lot.
Best regards,
Moubarik Belkasim
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro language consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only spoken in Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s) subsume all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much. http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16
The language policy does not allow for created languages and it does not differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.
The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the merits are for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but typically it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber language is taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue of it being a constructed language quite a bit.
It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language code for this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental support for this. Thanks, Gerard
On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . tussna@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I
wanted
to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO 639-3 code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.
The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a
language
group".
The fact is: it is both.
The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for the dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like Wp/rif, Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because they have the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".
But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber
language
(in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan constitution
and
is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and is taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for considering it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects).
So my questions are:
-How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber project and approve it?
-What about the option of "macro-language"?
For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard Arabic language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic dialects (Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with its own
ISO
639-3 language code.
There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber
language
on Facebook and elsewhere.
I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the Wp/ber project on a regular basis.
The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber
The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria and
the
Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.
I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish
Wikipedia
or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is automatically and identically available in two alphabets.
This is the link for the Wp/ber project:
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut
In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard
pan-Berber
specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French linguistic institutes):
http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf
It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of linguistics terminology.
Best regards,
Moubarik Belkasim https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hoi, When you send it to me, it will be forwarded to the language committee.
The big problem with not having a code for a language is that the material will not be tagged in this way and consequently not be found on the Internet. What can be done is using a code like ber-Latn-x-standard or ber-Tfng-x-standard to indicate the language. Consequently it is VERY important to expedite a resolution in this. Yes, when you have sufficient documentation YOU can ask for a language code.. (contact me off-list).
As there is a case to be made for a separate language code, it will likely not be possible to get a code that is part of IETF (a typical either or situation). thanks, Gerard
On 8 December 2011 21:14, Tussna . tussna@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi Gerard,
Thanks a lot for your quick reply.
Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across 10 North African and Saharan countries.
But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya, Niger, Mali...).
I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course, all Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation and development.
In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber come from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in the Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved there.
An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not being created by the governments.
This is not some Esperanto-type of language.
Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists, educators, and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and institutes, in which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard language worthy of being used in mainstream media and education.
In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a standardized form of the dialects, encompassing all dialectal synonyms and variations while putting them in a standardized spelling and style.
Applying for an ISO 639-3 code for Standard Berber / macro-language is the obvious solution. But it takes a huge amount of time and bureaucracy. And those guys that regulate the codes are not great communicators.
A friend of mine (very busy with Berber) has been talking to SIL about all this for some time now. And he tells me that it is going to take a lot of time to get the code.
So I was hoping for the "wriggle room" you mentioned to get this through.
There is a good amount of documentation in standard Berber: dictionaries, government school books from Morocco and Algeria, grammar studies on standard Berber, recently published children's stories, manuals...etc. And there are 2 Berber-language TV channels in Morocco and Algeria broadcasting a lot of material in pretty much standrdized Berber (especially news programs).
I am very sure that when the language committee examines the documentation, they will be convinced of Standard Berber and of the viability of the Wp/ber project.
Could you please tell me where (or to which persons) exactly should I send the request and the documentation?
Thanks a lot.
Best regards,
Moubarik Belkasim
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro language consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only spoken in Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s) subsume all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much. http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16
The language policy does not allow for created languages and it does not differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.
The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the merits
are
for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but typically it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber language
is
taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue of it being a constructed language quite a bit.
It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language code for this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental support for this. Thanks, Gerard
On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . tussna@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I
wanted
to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO 639-2
and
ISO 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO
639-3
code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.
The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a
language
group".
The fact is: it is both.
The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for the dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like Wp/rif, Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because they
have
the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".
But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber
language
(in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan constitution
and
is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and is taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for
considering
it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects).
So my questions are:
-How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber
project
and approve it?
-What about the option of "macro-language"?
For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard
Arabic
language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic dialects (Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with its own
ISO
639-3 language code.
There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber
language
on Facebook and elsewhere.
I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the Wp/ber project on a regular basis.
The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber
The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria and
the
Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.
I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish
Wikipedia
or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is automatically and identically available in two alphabets.
This is the link for the Wp/ber project:
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut
In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard
pan-Berber
specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French linguistic institutes):
http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf
It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of linguistics terminology.
Best regards,
Moubarik Belkasim https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
First, excuse my intrusion into this.
I am very pleased to learn that there are people on Wikipedia that addresses this issue in its entirety.
In all government and non-governmental, there is this big problem of transcription. Some opt for the original character for reasons of authenticity, one for Latin transcription for technological reasons.
Personally, I opt for co-existence of two transcripts and it is duty of the Berbers to take steps to design interfaces transcription. Give everyone the opportunity to discover the richness of the language several thousand years.
Regarding Wikipedia, I wonder if there is a nuisance on the co-existence of two transcription, like that we would give people more chance to participate.
Cordially.
2011/12/9 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
Hoi, When you send it to me, it will be forwarded to the language committee.
The big problem with not having a code for a language is that the material will not be tagged in this way and consequently not be found on the Internet. What can be done is using a code like ber-Latn-x-standard or ber-Tfng-x-standard to indicate the language. Consequently it is VERY important to expedite a resolution in this. Yes, when you have sufficient documentation YOU can ask for a language code.. (contact me off-list).
As there is a case to be made for a separate language code, it will likely not be possible to get a code that is part of IETF (a typical either or situation). thanks, Gerard
On 8 December 2011 21:14, Tussna . tussna@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi Gerard,
Thanks a lot for your quick reply.
Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across 10 North African and Saharan countries.
But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya, Niger, Mali...).
I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course, all Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation and development.
In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber come from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in the Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved
there.
An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not being created by the governments.
This is not some Esperanto-type of language.
Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists, educators, and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and institutes, in which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard language worthy of being used in mainstream media and education.
In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a standardized form of the dialects, encompassing all dialectal synonyms
and
variations while putting them in a standardized spelling and style.
Applying for an ISO 639-3 code for Standard Berber / macro-language is
the
obvious solution. But it takes a huge amount of time and bureaucracy. And those guys that regulate the codes are not great communicators.
A friend of mine (very busy with Berber) has been talking to SIL about
all
this for some time now. And he tells me that it is going to take a lot of time to get the code.
So I was hoping for the "wriggle room" you mentioned to get this through.
There is a good amount of documentation in standard Berber: dictionaries, government school books from Morocco and Algeria, grammar studies on standard Berber, recently published children's stories, manuals...etc.
And
there are 2 Berber-language TV channels in Morocco and Algeria
broadcasting
a lot of material in pretty much standrdized Berber (especially news programs).
I am very sure that when the language committee examines the
documentation,
they will be convinced of Standard Berber and of the viability of the Wp/ber project.
Could you please tell me where (or to which persons) exactly should I
send
the request and the documentation?
Thanks a lot.
Best regards,
Moubarik Belkasim
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro language consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only spoken
in
Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s)
subsume
all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much. http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16
The language policy does not allow for created languages and it does
not
differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.
The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the merits
are
for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but
typically
it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber language
is
taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue of it being a constructed language quite a bit.
It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language code
for
this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental support
for
this. Thanks, Gerard
On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . tussna@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I
wanted
to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO 639-2
and
ISO 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO
639-3
code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.
The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a
language
group".
The fact is: it is both.
The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for
the
dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like Wp/rif, Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because they
have
the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".
But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber
language
(in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan
constitution
and
is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and
is
taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for
considering
it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects).
So my questions are:
-How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber
project
and approve it?
-What about the option of "macro-language"?
For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard
Arabic
language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic
dialects
(Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with its
own
ISO
639-3 language code.
There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber
language
on Facebook and elsewhere.
I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the Wp/ber project on a regular basis.
The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber
The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria
and
the
Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.
I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish
Wikipedia
or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is automatically and identically available in two alphabets.
This is the link for the Wp/ber project:
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut
In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard
pan-Berber
specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French linguistic institutes):
http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf
It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of linguistics terminology.
Best regards,
Moubarik Belkasim https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hoi, When the transliteration from and to the Latin script is straight forward, we may have a situation where "round trip" transcription is possible. This means that like we already do for for instance Serbian and Chinese save it in one script and let it be a user preference to use either script. Thanks, GerardM
On 14 December 2011 17:48, aksel afersig afersig@gmail.com wrote:
First, excuse my intrusion into this.
I am very pleased to learn that there are people on Wikipedia that addresses this issue in its entirety.
In all government and non-governmental, there is this big problem of transcription. Some opt for the original character for reasons of authenticity, one for Latin transcription for technological reasons.
Personally, I opt for co-existence of two transcripts and it is duty of the Berbers to take steps to design interfaces transcription. Give everyone the opportunity to discover the richness of the language several thousand years.
Regarding Wikipedia, I wonder if there is a nuisance on the co-existence of two transcription, like that we would give people more chance to participate.
Cordially.
2011/12/9 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
Hoi, When you send it to me, it will be forwarded to the language committee.
The big problem with not having a code for a language is that the
material
will not be tagged in this way and consequently not be found on the Internet. What can be done is using a code like ber-Latn-x-standard or ber-Tfng-x-standard to indicate the language. Consequently it is VERY important to expedite a resolution in this. Yes, when you have sufficient documentation YOU can ask for a language code.. (contact me off-list).
As there is a case to be made for a separate language code, it will
likely
not be possible to get a code that is part of IETF (a typical either or situation). thanks, Gerard
On 8 December 2011 21:14, Tussna . tussna@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi Gerard,
Thanks a lot for your quick reply.
Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across 10 North African and Saharan countries.
But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya, Niger, Mali...).
I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course,
all
Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation and development.
In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber come from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in the Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved
there.
An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not being created by the governments.
This is not some Esperanto-type of language.
Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists,
educators,
and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and institutes,
in
which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard
language
worthy of being used in mainstream media and education.
In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a standardized form of the dialects, encompassing all dialectal synonyms
and
variations while putting them in a standardized spelling and style.
Applying for an ISO 639-3 code for Standard Berber / macro-language is
the
obvious solution. But it takes a huge amount of time and bureaucracy.
And
those guys that regulate the codes are not great communicators.
A friend of mine (very busy with Berber) has been talking to SIL about
all
this for some time now. And he tells me that it is going to take a lot
of
time to get the code.
So I was hoping for the "wriggle room" you mentioned to get this
through.
There is a good amount of documentation in standard Berber:
dictionaries,
government school books from Morocco and Algeria, grammar studies on standard Berber, recently published children's stories, manuals...etc.
And
there are 2 Berber-language TV channels in Morocco and Algeria
broadcasting
a lot of material in pretty much standrdized Berber (especially news programs).
I am very sure that when the language committee examines the
documentation,
they will be convinced of Standard Berber and of the viability of the Wp/ber project.
Could you please tell me where (or to which persons) exactly should I
send
the request and the documentation?
Thanks a lot.
Best regards,
Moubarik Belkasim
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro
language
consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only spoken
in
Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s)
subsume
all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much. http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16
The language policy does not allow for created languages and it does
not
differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.
The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the
merits
are
for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but
typically
it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber
language
is
taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue of
it
being a constructed language quite a bit.
It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language code
for
this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental support
for
this. Thanks, Gerard
On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . tussna@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I
wanted
to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO
639-2
and
ISO 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO
639-3
code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.
The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a
language
group".
The fact is: it is both.
The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for
the
dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like
Wp/rif,
Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because
they
have
the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".
But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber
language
(in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan
constitution
and
is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and
is
taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for
considering
it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects).
So my questions are:
-How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber
project
and approve it?
-What about the option of "macro-language"?
For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard
Arabic
language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic
dialects
(Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with its
own
ISO
639-3 language code.
There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber
language
on Facebook and elsewhere.
I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the
Wp/ber
project on a regular basis.
The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber
The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria
and
the
Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.
I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish
Wikipedia
or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is automatically
and
identically available in two alphabets.
This is the link for the Wp/ber project:
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut
In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard
pan-Berber
specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French linguistic institutes):
http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf
It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of linguistics terminology.
Best regards,
Moubarik Belkasim https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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I'm afraid that round-trip conversion is not easily feasible given that Tifinagh has no casing distinctions. However, if the community is willing to implement conversion with this caveat in mind, as was done on the Inuktitut Wikipedia, it should be possible.
2011/12/15, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, When the transliteration from and to the Latin script is straight forward, we may have a situation where "round trip" transcription is possible. This means that like we already do for for instance Serbian and Chinese save it in one script and let it be a user preference to use either script. Thanks, GerardM
On 14 December 2011 17:48, aksel afersig afersig@gmail.com wrote:
First, excuse my intrusion into this.
I am very pleased to learn that there are people on Wikipedia that addresses this issue in its entirety.
In all government and non-governmental, there is this big problem of transcription. Some opt for the original character for reasons of authenticity, one for Latin transcription for technological reasons.
Personally, I opt for co-existence of two transcripts and it is duty of the Berbers to take steps to design interfaces transcription. Give everyone the opportunity to discover the richness of the language several thousand years.
Regarding Wikipedia, I wonder if there is a nuisance on the co-existence of two transcription, like that we would give people more chance to participate.
Cordially.
2011/12/9 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
Hoi, When you send it to me, it will be forwarded to the language committee.
The big problem with not having a code for a language is that the
material
will not be tagged in this way and consequently not be found on the Internet. What can be done is using a code like ber-Latn-x-standard or ber-Tfng-x-standard to indicate the language. Consequently it is VERY important to expedite a resolution in this. Yes, when you have sufficient documentation YOU can ask for a language code.. (contact me off-list).
As there is a case to be made for a separate language code, it will
likely
not be possible to get a code that is part of IETF (a typical either or situation). thanks, Gerard
On 8 December 2011 21:14, Tussna . tussna@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi Gerard,
Thanks a lot for your quick reply.
Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across 10 North African and Saharan countries.
But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya, Niger, Mali...).
I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course,
all
Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation and development.
In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber come from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in the Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved
there.
An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not being created by the governments.
This is not some Esperanto-type of language.
Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists,
educators,
and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and institutes,
in
which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard
language
worthy of being used in mainstream media and education.
In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a standardized form of the dialects, encompassing all dialectal synonyms
and
variations while putting them in a standardized spelling and style.
Applying for an ISO 639-3 code for Standard Berber / macro-language is
the
obvious solution. But it takes a huge amount of time and bureaucracy.
And
those guys that regulate the codes are not great communicators.
A friend of mine (very busy with Berber) has been talking to SIL about
all
this for some time now. And he tells me that it is going to take a lot
of
time to get the code.
So I was hoping for the "wriggle room" you mentioned to get this
through.
There is a good amount of documentation in standard Berber:
dictionaries,
government school books from Morocco and Algeria, grammar studies on standard Berber, recently published children's stories, manuals...etc.
And
there are 2 Berber-language TV channels in Morocco and Algeria
broadcasting
a lot of material in pretty much standrdized Berber (especially news programs).
I am very sure that when the language committee examines the
documentation,
they will be convinced of Standard Berber and of the viability of the Wp/ber project.
Could you please tell me where (or to which persons) exactly should I
send
the request and the documentation?
Thanks a lot.
Best regards,
Moubarik Belkasim
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro
language
consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only spoken
in
Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s)
subsume
all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much. http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16
The language policy does not allow for created languages and it does
not
differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.
The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the
merits
are
for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but
typically
it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber
language
is
taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue of
it
being a constructed language quite a bit.
It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language code
for
this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental support
for
this. Thanks, Gerard
On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . tussna@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I
wanted
to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO
639-2
and
ISO 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO
639-3
code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.
The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a
language
group".
The fact is: it is both.
The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for
the
dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like
Wp/rif,
Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because
they
have
the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".
But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber
language
(in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan
constitution
and
is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and
is
taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for
considering
it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects).
So my questions are:
-How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber
project
and approve it?
-What about the option of "macro-language"?
For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard
Arabic
language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic
dialects
(Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with its
own
ISO
639-3 language code.
There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber
language
on Facebook and elsewhere.
I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the
Wp/ber
project on a regular basis.
The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber
The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria
and
the
Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.
I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish
Wikipedia
or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is automatically
and
identically available in two alphabets.
This is the link for the Wp/ber project:
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut
In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard
pan-Berber
specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French linguistic institutes):
http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf
It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of linguistics terminology.
Best regards,
Moubarik Belkasim https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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Hoi, When the source text is always saved in the Latin script, casing can be correctly applied to a text. Only when the text is originally in the Tifinach script there may be issues. Thanks, Gerard
On 15 December 2011 20:35, M. Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I'm afraid that round-trip conversion is not easily feasible given that Tifinagh has no casing distinctions. However, if the community is willing to implement conversion with this caveat in mind, as was done on the Inuktitut Wikipedia, it should be possible.
2011/12/15, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, When the transliteration from and to the Latin script is straight
forward,
we may have a situation where "round trip" transcription is possible.
This
means that like we already do for for instance Serbian and Chinese save
it
in one script and let it be a user preference to use either script. Thanks, GerardM
On 14 December 2011 17:48, aksel afersig afersig@gmail.com wrote:
First, excuse my intrusion into this.
I am very pleased to learn that there are people on Wikipedia that addresses this issue in its entirety.
In all government and non-governmental, there is this big problem of transcription. Some opt for the original character for reasons of authenticity, one for Latin transcription for technological reasons.
Personally, I opt for co-existence of two transcripts and it is duty of the Berbers to take steps to design interfaces transcription. Give everyone the opportunity to discover the richness of the language several thousand years.
Regarding Wikipedia, I wonder if there is a nuisance on the co-existence of two transcription, like that we would give people more chance to participate.
Cordially.
2011/12/9 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
Hoi, When you send it to me, it will be forwarded to the language
committee.
The big problem with not having a code for a language is that the
material
will not be tagged in this way and consequently not be found on the Internet. What can be done is using a code like ber-Latn-x-standard or ber-Tfng-x-standard to indicate the language. Consequently it is VERY important to expedite a resolution in this. Yes, when you have sufficient documentation YOU can ask for a language code.. (contact me off-list).
As there is a case to be made for a separate language code, it will
likely
not be possible to get a code that is part of IETF (a typical either
or
situation). thanks, Gerard
On 8 December 2011 21:14, Tussna . tussna@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi Gerard,
Thanks a lot for your quick reply.
Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across
10
North African and Saharan countries.
But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya,
Niger,
Mali...).
I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course,
all
Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation and development.
In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber come from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in the Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved
there.
An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not being created by the governments.
This is not some Esperanto-type of language.
Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists,
educators,
and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and
institutes,
in
which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard
language
worthy of being used in mainstream media and education.
In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a standardized form of the dialects, encompassing all dialectal
synonyms
and
variations while putting them in a standardized spelling and style.
Applying for an ISO 639-3 code for Standard Berber / macro-language
is
the
obvious solution. But it takes a huge amount of time and
bureaucracy.
And
those guys that regulate the codes are not great communicators.
A friend of mine (very busy with Berber) has been talking to SIL
about
all
this for some time now. And he tells me that it is going to take a
lot
of
time to get the code.
So I was hoping for the "wriggle room" you mentioned to get this
through.
There is a good amount of documentation in standard Berber:
dictionaries,
government school books from Morocco and Algeria, grammar studies on standard Berber, recently published children's stories,
manuals...etc.
And
there are 2 Berber-language TV channels in Morocco and Algeria
broadcasting
a lot of material in pretty much standrdized Berber (especially news programs).
I am very sure that when the language committee examines the
documentation,
they will be convinced of Standard Berber and of the viability of
the
Wp/ber project.
Could you please tell me where (or to which persons) exactly should
I
send
the request and the documentation?
Thanks a lot.
Best regards,
Moubarik Belkasim
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro
language
consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only spoken
in
Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s)
subsume
all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much. http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16
The language policy does not allow for created languages and it
does
not
differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.
The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the
merits
are
for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but
typically
it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber
language
is
taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue
of
it
being a constructed language quite a bit.
It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language
code
for
this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental
support
for
this. Thanks, Gerard
On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . tussna@gmail.com wrote:
> Hoi iedereen / Hi all, > > I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation.
And
> I wanted > to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber* > > The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO
639-2
and
> ISO > 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an > ISO
639-3
> code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5. > > The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but
is a
language > group". > > The fact is: it is both. > > The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias > for
the
> dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like
Wp/rif,
> Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because
they
have
> the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language". > > But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the
Berber
language > (in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan
constitution
and > is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, > and
is
> taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for
considering
> it a language (not just a scholarly group of
languages/dialects).
> > So my questions are: > > -How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber
project
> and approve it? > > -What about the option of "macro-language"? > > For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a
standard
Arabic
> language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on
the
> "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic
dialects
> (Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with > its
own
ISO > 639-3 language code. > > > There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified
Berber
language > on Facebook and elsewhere. > > I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the
Wp/ber
> project on a regular basis. > > The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber > > The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in
Algeria
and
the > Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco. > > I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish Wikipedia > or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is
automatically
and
> identically available in two alphabets. > > This is the link for the Wp/ber project: > > http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut > > In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard pan-Berber > specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French > linguistic > institutes): > > http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf > > It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of > linguistics > terminology. > > Best regards, > > Moubarik Belkasim > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l > _______________________________________________ > Wikipedia-l mailing list > Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l > _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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