Hoi iedereen / Hi all, I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I wanted to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber* The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO 639-3 code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5. The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a language group". The fact is: it is both. The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for the dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like Wp/rif, Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because they have the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language". But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber language (in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan constitution and is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and is taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for considering it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects). So my questions are: -How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber project and approve it? -What about the option of "macro-language"? For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard Arabic language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic dialects (Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with its own ISO 639-3 language code. There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber language on Facebook and elsewhere. I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the Wp/ber project on a regular basis. The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria and the Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco. I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish Wikipedia or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is automatically and identically available in two alphabets. This is the link for the Wp/ber project: http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard pan-Berber specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French linguistic institutes): http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of linguistics terminology. Best regards, Moubarik Belkasim <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l> _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

Hoi Gerard, Thanks a lot for your quick reply. Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across 10 North African and Saharan countries. But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya, Niger, Mali...). I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course, all Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation and development. In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber come from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in the Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved there. An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not being created by the governments. This is not some Esperanto-type of language. Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists, educators, and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and institutes, in which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard language worthy of being used in mainstream media and education. In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a standardized form of the dialects, encompassing all dialectal synonyms and variations while putting them in a standardized spelling and style. Applying for an ISO 639-3 code for Standard Berber / macro-language is the obvious solution. But it takes a huge amount of time and bureaucracy. And those guys that regulate the codes are not great communicators. A friend of mine (very busy with Berber) has been talking to SIL about all this for some time now. And he tells me that it is going to take a lot of time to get the code. So I was hoping for the "wriggle room" you mentioned to get this through. There is a good amount of documentation in standard Berber: dictionaries, government school books from Morocco and Algeria, grammar studies on standard Berber, recently published children's stories, manuals...etc. And there are 2 Berber-language TV channels in Morocco and Algeria broadcasting a lot of material in pretty much standrdized Berber (especially news programs). I am very sure that when the language committee examines the documentation, they will be convinced of Standard Berber and of the viability of the Wp/ber project. Could you please tell me where (or to which persons) exactly should I send the request and the documentation? Thanks a lot. Best regards, Moubarik Belkasim On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen &lt;gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com&gt;wrote;wrote: are is and 639-3 have considering project Arabic _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

First, excuse my intrusion into this. I am very pleased to learn that there are people on Wikipedia that addresses this issue in its entirety. In all government and non-governmental, there is this big problem of transcription. Some opt for the original character for reasons of authenticity, one for Latin transcription for technological reasons. Personally, I opt for co-existence of two transcripts and it is duty of the Berbers to take steps to design interfaces transcription. Give everyone the opportunity to discover the richness of the language several thousand years. Regarding Wikipedia, I wonder if there is a nuisance on the co-existence of two transcription, like that we would give people more chance to participate. Cordially. 2011/12/9 Gerard Meijssen &lt;gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com&gt; material likely all educators, in language And of through. dictionaries, language merits language it 639-2 Wp/rif, they Wp/ber and _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

I'm afraid that round-trip conversion is not easily feasible given that Tifinagh has no casing distinctions. However, if the community is willing to implement conversion with this caveat in mind, as was done on the Inuktitut Wikipedia, it should be possible. 2011/12/15, Gerard Meijssen &lt;gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com&gt;om>: forward, This it committee. or 10 Niger, institutes, synonyms is bureaucracy. about lot manuals...etc. the I does of code support And is a Berber languages/dialects). standard the Berber Algeria automatically -- skype: node.ue _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l