Wikipedia-l November 2004

wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org

92 participants
89 discussions

Re: [Wikipedia-l] no:/nb:/nn:/etc. - modified suggestion
by Olve Utne 17 Nov '04

17 Nov '04

Hello Mark, On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:10:12 -0700, Mark Williamson wrote: >What would http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noreg redirect to? It would be >strange for somebody to end up at the nonexistant article :nb:Noreg, or be >re-directed to :nb:Norge only to have to click on the Nynorsk interwiki >link to get to where they wanted to be originally. Try this: http://nb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noreg Yes, this does take you to the Norsk (bokmål) article Norge, where you can then click on the interwiki link to Nynorsk (soon probably to be renamed Norsk (nynorsk)) to be taken to the Nynorsk article Noreg. I think this is a relatively minor problem that is outweighed by the general advantages of the drafted solution. There is an alternative solution though: >Thus I propose there be an additional provision of some sort so that when >article titles are different between nn: and nb: (they aren't always >different), the Nynorsk name on no: redirects to a Nynorsk article rather >than a Bokmål article. That can be done quite easily in specific cases by creating a disambiguation page on nb: -- in this particular case it would contain links to :nb:Norge and :nn:Noreg >In addition, I think one extremely important thing regarding promotion of >other Scandinavian Wikipedias is this: > >While the Sami language(s) may not be related to sv:/da:/nn:/nb:/, since >they are a national minority in all of these countries (excepting >Denmark), there should be prominently placed invitations in Sami, if >possible (otherwise in the language of the Wikipedia they're on), to come >contribute to the Sami Wikipedias if you can. For the inclusion of Sámi and other minority languages, please see the "recent changes" page on nn: and no:/nb: for an example of how this issue is already being handled: http://nn.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spesial:Recentchanges Note how the languages are listed in the links near the top of the page: 1) Scandinavian languages (minus nn): no: - sv: - da:, and also the languages Faeroese and Icelandic 2) Local Finno-Ugrian languages of Finnish and Northern Sami; 3) Languages of national minorities: Greenlandic, Hebrew & Yiddish. 4) Common immigrant languages in Norway: Albanian, Arabic, Bosnian, Farsi, Kurdish, Tamil, Turkish, Urdu & Vietnamese. 5) Major languages like English, French, German, Russian & Spanish; 6) Commons and Meta projects. On the Nynorsk main page, there are currently three links to Northern Sami: Near the top of the interwiki list; in its alphabetical place in the interwiki list; as one of the specially listed local languages in the section "Wikipedia i Skandinavia / Norden og nærområda". Further actions, like having an "ad" for the Northern Sami Wikipedia on the main page of nn:, have not been implemented yet, but I will tend to this soon. >Just to make things more complicated (and forseeing a possible future >issue)... currently, TTBOMK, we only have http://se.wikipedia.org/ for >Sami (more specifically N. Sami). Should we create additional Wikipedias >for the other Sami languages/dialects/whatever? If so, perhaps we should >have a notice on the Norwegian, Swedish, and Finnish Wikipedias (don't >forget, Finland has Sami people too!) in some sort of "unified Sami" >(which everybody can understand, even if it's not a standard in everyday >use) inviting people to contribute to the appropriate Sami Wikipedia. For Norway, Lule Sami and Southern Sami wikipedias would probably be useful -- and possibly also Skolte Sami and Enare Sami. In my opinion, the Lule Sami and Southern Sami languages should be offered the possibility of creating wikipedias. Two other national minorities in Norway and Sweden are the Romani people (Tatrar, Tatere, Tattare) and the Roma (Sigøynarar, Sigøynere, Zigenare, "Gypsies"). I suspect that the interest for wikipedia work may be relatively low in these groups, but it might still be worth checking out. All the best, -Olve > > > ========================================== > > > MODIFIED SUGGESTION FOR LONG-TERM SOLUTION > > > ========================================== > > > > > > > > > (This suggestion is based primarily on Lars Alvik's previous > > > suggestion, with modifications/additions based on arguments that have > > > emerged in the debate locally on no: and nn: as well as here on > > > wikipedia-l.) > > > > > > > > > 1) The "Norsk" and "Nynorsk" interwiki names are changed to "Norsk > > > (bokmål)" and "Norsk (nynorsk)" respectively. > > > > > > 2) The "Norsk (nynorsk)" wikipedia uses the language code nn: > > > > > > 3) The "Norsk (bokmål)" wikipedia is moved to the proper language code > > > nb:, with the central Wikipedia developers/admins making sure that the > > > extra workload on the current no: admins is kept to an absolute > > > minimum. (This will in effect (see #4) only be an internal reversal of > > > the two domains already de facto used by the Norsk (bokmål) Wikipedia, > > > thus ensuring maximum continuity.) > > > > > > 4) For reasons of continuity and relative size of community, "Norsk > > > (bokmål)" Wikipedia keeps the domain no:, but for reasons of > > > impreciseness of the term as regards the language situation in Norway, > > > this code will only be used as a redirect of links and URLs with the > > > code to the corresponding nb: page. (Thus parallelling exactly the > > > Danish usage of dk: and da:) > > > > > > 5) The communities on nn: and nb: will commit themselves to > > > implementing the solution locally, with a special emphasis on > > > information about and promotion of the other Wikipedia on the "Main" > > > and "Latest edits" page; and also, to the extent possible, through > > > putting the interwiki link to the other language first in the list of > > > links in each article. > > > > > > 6) A specific technical solution that has been brought up is the > > > splitting of the "Donations" link into a locally wikipedia-wide > > > universal link to the other Wikipedia of the two. This solution, while > > > admittedly clogging up the quick navigations field slightly, may have > > > positive effects for the local cooperation, and should therefore be > > > reciprocally applied to the nn: and nb: wikipedias. > > > > > > 7) In the interest of strengthening the Scandinavian Wikipedia > > > community, I suggest to implement points 5) and 6) also to sv: and > > > da:, thus facilitating quick navigation between these wikipedias, > > > effectively creating a half-integrated article pool of about 83,000 > > > articles (on 14 Nov. at ca 7 AM GMT) and an incitement for each of the > > > four Scandinavian communities to cooperate and expand. > > > > > > 8) Work towards more integrated multilingual wikipedias through making > > > the Scandinavian wikipedias a test project for the development of an > > > interlingual search function limited to a specific pool of wikipedias, > > > where searches and no-hit events lead to a search within the > > > pre-defined pool of closely related languages. For Scandinavian, this > > > would include, in order of community size, sv:, da:, nb:, and nn:. ___________________ Olve Utne http://utne.nvg.org

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Wikinews demo launches!
by Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales 16 Nov '04

16 Nov '04

http://demo.wikinews.org/ After the successful wikinews vote http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Vote the board has discussed and decided to move forward with this project! In order to continue to work towards as broad a community consensus as possible, we are launching this at http://demo.wikinews.org/ and invite all interested parties (particularly the "no" voters) to come and help work on the site. We will be keeping the site demo-only until November 22 at least, and at that point evaluating the next step. (Probably to launch en.wikinews.org) The demo has not yet been publicised widely, and my hope is that an extended demo might convince those who voted against the project to change their views, or to come and influence the project now in a direction that overcomes or alleviates the legitimate objections that have been raised. This will also give people more of a chance to discuss the proposed policies before the site goes live. The one thing I want to personally stress right now: this is at this point a pure wiki. We can make of it what we wish. All of the proposed policies are just that: proposed policies, and we should strive to organically create policies that solve actual problems as they arise, rather than trying to a priori make a lot of rules that could constrain us in the early days. This formula worked well for wikipedia: common sense and flexibility. Be Bold. --Jimbo -- "La nèfle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org

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Oops
by Craig Franklin 16 Nov '04

16 Nov '04

Ahh, I sent the whole digest to the list again, did I not. That'll teach me to speak my mind in the middle of the night. My apologies. ------------------- Craig Franklin PO Box 764 Ashgrove, Q, 4060 Australia http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art, and Culture.

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Re: no:/nb:/nn:/etc. - modified suggestion
by Bjarte Sorensen 15 Nov '04

15 Nov '04

I agree fully with Olve Utne's solution. I don't think it matters that no:-links redirect to nb:-links. They are for the most part pointing to articles that would stay on nb: anyway, and after a while most no:-interwiki links will be changed to reflect the move to nb:. When it comes to static links on say Google or other search engines these will sooner or later be replaced by appropriate ones from nn: and nb: and the no: links will slowly die away. So in other words, it will be a temporary "problem", and both wikis will soon enough have required fully equal status. Cheers, Bjarte Sorensen

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pi-eyed
by Ray Saintonge 15 Nov '04

15 Nov '04

When at Wikisources [[Pi to 1,000,000 places]] an anonymous user changes the first 10 digits of line 14320 from "0628419546" to "1516171819" how is anyone possible able to know which is correct? :-) :'( Ec

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Request for new Wikipedia: Friulian
by A. Decorte 15 Nov '04

15 Nov '04

Hello, I'm the user (Klenje) who was quoted at the beginning in the request; I'm a friulian speaker, I'm active in italian wiki, and there are other friulian people like me outside in the net (don't forget that Friulian is spoken by more than half million people), therefore i think there is the chance for a decent friulian wikipedia to be created; I can show you several site in friulian, and if they aren't more, this is due to the policy of italian government which so far doesn't promote minorities within Italy. Friulian speakers share this problem with sardinian and sicilian ones, but in my opionion wikipedia could help changing this situation; the only risk in creating a friulian wiki is the possibility of vandalism, but every wiki is started from few users and there are many ways to prevent it. Regards

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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [...] An honorable compromise and no: or nb: for Bokmaal?
by jneden＠bellsouth.net 15 Nov '04

15 Nov '04

Lars A., Well, I had to go back and find my original e-mail and find the replies to it (achk!) but thanks for the inadvertant compliment about my Norwegian. :-) Ein Sprachennazi?! Ich?! Nein, danke, aber jetzt müssen wir in Deutsch sprechen! (Und jetzt muß ich Deutsch lernen!) I'm going to digress on the Bokmål/Nynorsk issue. I'll leave it to you Nordmenn to come up with an appropriate solution. I feel very confident about my abilities and understanding of Norway, though! :-) Takk! Yeah, I am a bit of a "language Nazi," aren't I? Well, never a Nazi in any way, shape, or form, but the language part, yeah, I guess so! Languages are just a skill of mine. Dodadagohvi! (Tsalagi idiwiwoni!) See you all later! (Let's speak Cherokee!) Not! That would be like the ultimate act of lingual sabotage with our fiery Scandinavian audience here, wouldn't it? :-) Or Muskogee. That would be worse!Give this a try: http://www.tfn.net/Museum/points/Very_Useful1.htm You all speak Muskogee, don't you? Just playing! ^_^ Take care, all! -- Jeremy

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no:/nb:/nn:/etc. - modified suggestion
by Olve Utne 15 Nov '04

15 Nov '04

Hello Lars A. & everyone else, This posting has two main parts: First, a reply to your recent posting quoted below; and then a summary of my arguments in light of, amongst others, your and Mark Williamson's recent postings; and finally a modified suggestion with the following main points: 1) Renaming to Norsk (bokmål) and Norsk (nynorsk) 2) Moving Norsk (bokmål) to nb:, while KEEPING NO: as an automatic ("shadow") redirect to nb: -- thus parallelling Danish, with dk:> da:, keeping full continuity through keeping the two current codes; and making cooperation with nn: politically easier through discrete use of the domain no:. ===== REPLY ===== You wrote: >*Paints "POV" in huge red letters over Williamsons mail* I will get back to this further down. >Your mail have inaccuancies to bokmål and nynorsk, bokmål people view >nynorsk as a pest? This goes both ways, the ones that mostly hates nynorsk >(or bokmål) is teenagers that is forced to learn a different language in >school, that they don't feel they have any use for (unlike english or >perhaps german). Perhaps this "haterd" is stronger with the bokmålusers >(since nynorsk is smaller and is, in their eyes, less useful). What you write seems to be pretty much in agreement with what Mark wrote... I recognise the factual situation from both descriptions -- with yours maybe describing/articulating the "hatred" from Bokmål users against Nynorsk in more local terms (?) >It was the same time that part of the norwegian history was romantized, >the union with denmark was seen as "the four thousandyear nigth", >eventhough this where directly false. I presume you mean "400-year-night", not "4000-year-night" :) >Mr. Aasen made nynorsk by collecting dialects (dominantly the western and >the valleys in central-south norway. However the parts of norway with the >largest population was largely ignored, like the farming areas of eastern >norway, the south part of Oppland, Hedmark, Akershus, Østfold, Buskerud >and Vestfold) also the northern part of norway was largely ignored. Aren't Mr. Aasens "Norske Folkesprog" as well as the mid-19th Century Danish used in Norway both quite far removed from our Nynorsk and Bokmål...? Since the 1840s, both Nynorsk (then called Det norske Folkesprog by Ivar Aasen, later coined Landsmaal, but also actually known as Bokmaal (!)) and Bokmål (then near-identical with Danish, later known in its historically increasingly norvagised form as Rigsmaal and Riksmål) have changed very much. Today's mainstream Nynorsk most closely resembles dialects in relatively "moderate" dialect areas like Lofoten, Vesterålen, eastern parts of Telemark, parts of Vestfold and Oppland (including Toten). Today's mainstream Bokmål is also quite different from the Danish used in Norway in the mid-1800s, and lies closest to the dialects of middle-class and upper-class people in the cities of SE Norway -- esp. Oslo and Drammen. It is true that Nynorsk is currently most commonly used in Sogn og Fjordane and Møre og Romsdal. However, it is also used to varying degrees most other places in Norway, and Norwegian literature abounds with authors from both Bokmål and Nynorsk. You wrote about Mark's posting: *Paints "POV" in huge red letters over Williamsons mail*. I do not agree that Mark is unprecise or skewed enough in his writing to warrant such an outburst. Whereas I personally think that one mainly Bokmål Wikipedia is more constructive than two, >Yes, no: should point to the norwegian written language, but there >are none such thing. 80% of norwegians use bokmål (allthough some of them >speaks a dialect that contains some nynorsk words, like -a endings (these >are allowed on bokmål too). However, the languages are equal in terms of >administrative language. But on a national basis bokmål is more used. When some of us mention that a large proportion of Norwegians speak a dialect that is closer to Nynorsk than Bokmål, we are of course not talking about "some nynorsk words, like -a endings" (that would include, in fact, a rather large proportion of Oslo's population), but of dialects which show, *predominantly*, traits that are closer to the continuum if Nynorsk morphology than Bokmål. Such traits include, amongst others: - different plurals for masculine nouns (-a(r) or -æ(r), occasionally -ø(r)), feminine nouns (either merged -e(r) or, like in Swedish -e(r)/-o(r) depending on the class of each noun) and neutral nouns (mainly -) as opposed to a generic plural in Bokmål (-er, with neutral nouns varying between - and -er) - forms of personal pronouns that are closer to Nynorsk (such as e(g), æ(g) rather than je(g) = I; ho, hu rather than hun (she); dykk(~), dekk(~), dokk(e(r)) rather than dere = you (pl., accusative); etc.) - forms of verbs that are closer to Nynorsk (such as a higher incident of strong verbs, ablaut and umlaut forms; and, less significantly, -a in past tense of verbs were stylistically mainstream Bokmål has -et) Of secondary importance is the vowel system, with Nynorsk tending to have more historical vowels and fewer secondary vowels than Bokmål. The presence of many vowels is popularly viewed as "the" characteristic of Nynorsk -- but this trait is actually of less use in this connection. Forms that are permitted but in practice deprecated in Bokmål include: -a in past tense of certain verbs; -a as definite article in plural of neutral gender nouns; You pointed out that some -a endings are permitted in Bokmål. You did not, however, mention that these forms tend to be criticised, or even "corrected" away in practice -- because many (the majority?) of Bokmål users find them to be stylistically inappropriate. >btw. the paralell solution would kill the no: (informaly bokmål) wiki. I agree that that could be a risk, and therefore I believe that such a split *should be avoided at any reasonable cost*. >And since most of the articles on no: is on either bokmål or riksmål, some >100-200 on nynorsk (i've been rcpatroling on no: since we where just ~800 >articles, so i have a pretty good idea of the amount of articles in either >language. Knowing that a large part of this work would fall on me i don't >cherish this idea, and the fact that it's creating a chaos, two rcs to >monitor and a devertion of work. Also, there are no bokmål grasroot >movement that wants to do this work, the people that supports this >solution is mostly nynorskusers (primary nynorsk atleast). I believe that once there is a solution that "everyone" agrees on (including, hopefully, the Wikipedia community as a whole) -- which I hope will be an adjustment of the current language-based split rather than a fork within the current no: -- the work of adjusting the language contents of the Bokmål version will be relatively easily accomplished. I for one hereby volunteer to do my share of the job. Even though I seem to have been coined as a Nynorsk user (and even, to my frustration, as a Bokmål hater) by some, I am very interested in >I vote for a solution where bokmål keeps no: (but creates a page >with reasons to why bokmål have no:, that's going to get linked from the >mainpage, and "ads" for nynorskwiki), the interwiki decoding changes >to "norsk (bokmål)" to clairify for non-norwegians that it's bokmål. > >This way we don't kill a well functioning wiki, and i belive/hope >most parts would be happy with the solution. The Norsk (nynorsk) vs. Norsk (bokmål) (without capitalisation of nyn. and bokm.) renaming is OK with me. Whether the Norsk (bokmål) Wikipedia actually lies on no: or nb: has, as has been pointed out already, absolutely no significance: The Norsk (bokmål) Wikipedia will be exactly as continuos on nb: as on no:, with absolutely no foreseeable extra work for its admins and other users, other than an optional long-term bot task of going through the various wikipedias and automatically changing all [[no: entrances to [[nb:. Since a change of domain would include a universal redirect from no: to nb: for a relatively long period (in fact, just reversing the current situation, there should be plenty of time to do this. To illustrate the current situation: Please try clicking on this link to the article "Norge" on nb: (Norway) and see what happens... http://nb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norge See? That is how easy the reversal of this would be on the readers! :) ================= SUMMARY OF REPLY: ================= A I think a split of the current no: Wikipedia should be avoided at any reasonable cost. B A move of this Wikipedia to nb: would not lead to any significant extra work for the admins and users on no: C If no: is moved to nb: in accordance with a more precise implementation of the language codes, then no: should be a redirect domain to nb: the way it is today, with the main page as the only exception. D In the event of such a move, bots should be set up to go through the other wikipedias and change all [[no: and [[:no: codes to [[nb: and [[:nb: E It seems that the main argument against having Norsk (bokmål) on nb: is an emotional one rather than practical (since the move would be very easy to implement and would be executed centrally rather than by no: admins) or logical (since no: is the country code and the umbrella language code, whereas nb: is the specific language code for Bokmål, including Riksmål). F Those emotional arguments must be respected, since our long-term goals as an international Wikipedia community would be adversely affected if there were to be unnecessary long-term resentment between the user groups of individual projects. Therefore, my hunch is that we should first try to reach consent about the underlying factors. Here is what I propose that these are: LOCAL UNDERLYING FACTORS - Bokmål as a written language has more users than Nynorsk - Bokmål and Nynorsk are both recognised as official languages in Norway. - Bokmål and Nynorsk are linguistically extremely closely connected with Swedish and Danish. COUNTRY AND LANGUAGE CODES IN A SCANDINAVIAN PERSPECTIVE - The Swedish language Wikipedia, primarily serving people in Sweden and parts of Finland, has the language code sv: rather than the country code se: (which is connected to the use of se: for Northern Sami and sa: for Sanskrit) - The Danish language Wikipedia, primarily serving people in Denmark, has the language code da: rather than the country code dk. There is a redirect from dk: to da: - The Nynorsk language Wikipedia, primarily serving Nynorsk language users in Norway, has the language code nn: - The mainly Bokmål Wikipedia, which started out as a mixed Bokmål/Nynorsk environment with the emphasis on Bokmål (including Riksmål), uses both the country code no: (which, when used as a language code, includes both Bokmål and Nynorsk) and the language code nb: (as a redirect). CURRENT SITUATION ON NO: - The no: Wikipedia is changing its rôle from a generic Bokmål/Nynorsk language wikipedia (albeit with almost exclusively Bokmål contents, as Lars Alvik has pointed out) to a specifically Norsk Bokmål language version. - The new Nynorsk Wikipedia works as an independent project and, while fastly expanding, has not had any significant effect in terms of disrupting the continuity of the no: Wikipedia in general except for there being a bit more activity on the Village Pump page than usual. ========================================== MODIFIED SUGGESTION FOR LONG-TERM SOLUTION ========================================== (This suggestion is based primarily on Lars Alvik's previous suggestion, with modifications/additions based on arguments that have emerged in the debate locally on no: and nn: as well as here on wikipedia-l.) 1) The "Norsk" and "Nynorsk" interwiki names are changed to "Norsk (bokmål)" and "Norsk (nynorsk)" respectively. 2) The "Norsk (nynorsk)" wikipedia uses the language code nn: 3) The "Norsk (bokmål)" wikipedia is moved to the proper language code nb:, with the central Wikipedia developers/admins making sure that the extra workload on the current no: admins is kept to an absolute minimum. (This will in effect (see #4) only be an internal reversal of the two domains already de facto used by the Norsk (bokmål) Wikipedia, thus ensuring maximum continuity.) 4) For reasons of continuity and relative size of community, "Norsk (bokmål)" Wikipedia keeps the domain no:, but for reasons of impreciseness of the term as regards the language situation in Norway, this code will only be used as a redirect of links and URLs with the code to the corresponding nb: page. (Thus parallelling exactly the Danish usage of dk: and da:) 5) The communities on nn: and nb: will commit themselves to implementing the solution locally, with a special emphasis on information about and promotion of the other Wikipedia on the "Main" and "Latest edits" page; and also, to the extent possible, through putting the interwiki link to the other language first in the list of links in each article. 6) A specific technical solution that has been brought up is the splitting of the "Donations" link into a locally wikipedia-wide universal link to the other Wikipedia of the two. This solution, while admittedly clogging up the quick navigations field slightly, may have positive effects for the local cooperation, and should therefore be reciprocally applied to the nn: and nb: wikipedias. 7) In the interest of strengthening the Scandinavian Wikipedia community, I suggest to implement points 5) and 6) also to sv: and da:, thus facilitating quick navigation between these wikipedias, effectively creating a half-integrated article pool of about 83,000 articles (on 14 Nov. at ca 7 AM GMT) and an incitement for each of the four Scandinavian communities to cooperate and expand. 8) Work towards more integrated multilingual wikipedias through making the Scandinavian wikipedias a test project for the development of an interlingual search function limited to a specific pool of wikipedias, where searches and no-hit events lead to a search within the pre-defined pool of closely related languages. For Scandinavian, this would include, in order of community size, sv:, da:, nb:, and nn:. -Olve ___________________ Olve Utne http://utne.nvg.org

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Requests for new Wikipedias?
by Mark Williamson 14 Nov '04

14 Nov '04

Hi all I had gathered that people were getting fed up with requests from me for new Wikipedias, and now somebody has said it to my face. It's really a bit weird from where I am though because I have requested only two new Wikipedias, the first one having been created and now growing steadily, and the second one (Friulian) with popular support from speakers of the language that is surer than it was for Sicilian (people committed for Sicilian, but they weren't Wikipedians already). Now, in this message I don't want to ask your opinion about policy or about whether or not a certain Wikipedia should be created, I just want to know this: Are you fed up with the requests from me for new Wikipedias? Why? I realise I may not be a fluent speaker of either of the languages I requested, but the way people are talking (somebody referred to me "flooding" this list with requests) makes it sound like I am selecting languages at random from a list and requesting them at a rate of 10 per week or something, when in fact I had already asked fluent speakers if they would be interested, got a commitment, and so far have only requested two Wikipedias (a few months ago, I asked Brion to create sc: on IRC [but not this list!], and I recognise now that was probably a mistake) Mark

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Special:Export of Special pages
by Gerrit 14 Nov '04

14 Nov '04

Hello, for special pages, it is not possible to get the source code, because they are generated. I am thinking of Recentchanges, Contributions, etc. Is it possible to export those pages? It would make parsing easier. I want to parse my Contributions in order to create some statistics about them. Yes, I'm aware of Kate's tools, but these do not enable me to see 1) the size of my changes, 2) the number of Newpages I created. Without the latter, 'number of edits' doesn't say too much. It is relatively low for me (User:Gerritholl) because I spent time writing articles in one go, not doing minor edits for VfD, FAC, etc. I want to see more meaningful statistics on myself (and others...). regards, Gerrit. -- Weather in Twenthe, Netherlands 14/11 13:25: 8.0°C wind 3.1 m/s NW (57 m above NAP) -- In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. -Dwight David Eisenhower, January 17, 1961

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Wikipedia-l November 2004