David Shankbone's first report from Israel (http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Israel_Journal:_The_Holy_Land_has_an_image_prob lem) has provoked a bit of controversy. One reaction I got was "why the segue into the COO issue?" It annoys me to see that the MSM are now picking this up (the COO issue) and whilst The Register broke the story I don't think they did anything beyond fact-check what their source told them. Details from Wikinews' investigation have been lifted and written into recent coverage of the issue, we did check the Reg. story and we found more - including bankruptcy proceedings (PACER will give you a list of the creditors).
Anyway, back to David in Israel, and I assume a fair number of people are aware this is an expenses-paid trip where the Israeli government and friends are footing the bill. David's first piece seeks to say "here is the stereotype, but that's not what I'm here for". If you read the talk you'll see we have some people think you can't do any story about Israel without going "OMG! Israel-Palestine! Car bombs! Terrorists! Human rights violations! Israeli oppression!". I agree with David's argument that this is like saying every coverage of the U.S. should have an aside about Camp Delta in Guantanamo - and I *know* people who'd do that too - we've had to ban idiots like that from Wikinews in the past.
I'd like people on the list to read this with a critical eye and see what they think about Wikinews developing policies and structure to allow this sort of reporting. Keep any eye out for David's forthcoming reports. The indications I have from private email are that they're keeping their journalist guests busy about 12-14 hours a day and if they don't have breakfast with Israeli technologists it's probably the only meal of the day they're getting off the job. Not a holiday by any means.
Brian McNeil
In my opinion, the first-hand story-telling nature of this article, is a clear violation of WN:NPOV which is not just a Wikinews policy, but also a Foundation issue (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view).
Don't get me wrong, it is great journalism, which could prove to be a coup for Wikinews, raising its profile. However, it is incongruent with existing policies.
Ultimately, I fear that allowing this may be like opening Pandora's box.
Sincerely, SVTCobra (http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/User:SVTCobra)
----- Original Message ----- From: Brian McNeil Date: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:09 am Subject: [Foundation-l] David Shankbone in Israel To: 'Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List' Cc: David Shankbone
David Shankbone's first report from Israel (http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Israel_Journal:_The_Holy_Land_has_an_image_prob lem) has provoked a bit of controversy. One reaction I got was "why the segue into the COO issue?" It annoys me to see that the MSM are now picking this up (the COO issue) and whilst The Register broke the story I don't think they did anything beyond fact-check what their source told them. Details from Wikinews' investigation have been lifted and written into recent coverage of the issue, we did check the Reg. story and we found more
- including bankruptcy proceedings (PACER will give you a list
of the creditors).
Anyway, back to David in Israel, and I assume a fair number of people are aware this is an expenses-paid trip where the Israeli government and friends are footing the bill. David's first piece seeks to say "here is the stereotype, but that's not what I'm here for". If you read the talk you'll see we have some people think you can't do any story about Israel without going "OMG! Israel-Palestine! Car bombs! Terrorists! Human rights violations! Israeli oppression!". I agree with David's argument that this is like saying every coverage of the U.S. should have an aside about Camp Delta in Guantanamo - and I *know* people who'd do that too - we've had to ban idiots like that from Wikinews in the past.
I'd like people on the list to read this with a critical eye and see what they think about Wikinews developing policies and structure to allow this sort of reporting. Keep any eye out for David's forthcoming reports. The indications I have from private email are that they're keeping their journalist guests busy about 12-14 hours a day and if they don't have breakfast with Israeli technologists it's probably the only meal of the day they're getting off the job. Not a holiday by any means.
Brian McNeil
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You've made your opinion perfectly clear on-wiki. I am seeking a wider consultation, not a continuation of that argument in a different venue.
Brian McNeil
-----Original Message----- From: foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of wikinewssvt@optonline.net Sent: 19 December 2007 14:48 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] David Shankbone in Israel
In my opinion, the first-hand story-telling nature of this article, is a clear violation of WN:NPOV which is not just a Wikinews policy, but also a Foundation issue (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view).
Don't get me wrong, it is great journalism, which could prove to be a coup for Wikinews, raising its profile. However, it is incongruent with existing policies.
Ultimately, I fear that allowing this may be like opening Pandora's box.
Sincerely, SVTCobra (http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/User:SVTCobra)
----- Original Message ----- From: Brian McNeil Date: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:09 am Subject: [Foundation-l] David Shankbone in Israel To: 'Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List' Cc: David Shankbone
David Shankbone's first report from Israel
(http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Israel_Journal:_The_Holy_Land_has_an_image_prob
lem) has provoked a bit of controversy. One reaction I got was "why the segue into the COO issue?" It annoys me to see that the MSM are now picking this up (the COO issue) and whilst The Register broke the story I don't think they did anything beyond fact-check what their source told them. Details from Wikinews' investigation have been lifted and written into recent coverage of the issue, we did check the Reg. story and we found more
- including bankruptcy proceedings (PACER will give you a list
of the creditors).
Anyway, back to David in Israel, and I assume a fair number of people are aware this is an expenses-paid trip where the Israeli government and friends are footing the bill. David's first piece seeks to say "here is the stereotype, but that's not what I'm here for". If you read the talk you'll see we have some people think you can't do any story about Israel without going "OMG! Israel-Palestine! Car bombs! Terrorists! Human rights violations! Israeli oppression!". I agree with David's argument that this is like saying every coverage of the U.S. should have an aside about Camp Delta in Guantanamo - and I *know* people who'd do that too - we've had to ban idiots like that from Wikinews in the past.
I'd like people on the list to read this with a critical eye and see what they think about Wikinews developing policies and structure to allow this sort of reporting. Keep any eye out for David's forthcoming reports. The indications I have from private email are that they're keeping their journalist guests busy about 12-14 hours a day and if they don't have breakfast with Israeli technologists it's probably the only meal of the day they're getting off the job. Not a holiday by any means.
Brian McNeil
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Link appears to be broken.
On Dec 19, 2007 8:59 AM, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
You've made your opinion perfectly clear on-wiki. I am seeking a wider consultation, not a continuation of that argument in a different venue.
Brian McNeil
-----Original Message----- From: foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of wikinewssvt@optonline.net Sent: 19 December 2007 14:48 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] David Shankbone in Israel
In my opinion, the first-hand story-telling nature of this article, is a clear violation of WN:NPOV which is not just a Wikinews policy, but also a Foundation issue (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view).
Don't get me wrong, it is great journalism, which could prove to be a coup for Wikinews, raising its profile. However, it is incongruent with existing policies.
Ultimately, I fear that allowing this may be like opening Pandora's box.
Sincerely, SVTCobra (http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/User:SVTCobra)
----- Original Message ----- From: Brian McNeil Date: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:09 am Subject: [Foundation-l] David Shankbone in Israel To: 'Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List' Cc: David Shankbone
David Shankbone's first report from Israel
(http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Israel_Journal:_The_Holy_Land_has_an_image_prob
lem) has provoked a bit of controversy. One reaction I got was "why the segue into the COO issue?" It annoys me to see that the MSM are now picking this up (the COO issue) and whilst The Register broke the story I don't think they did anything beyond fact-check what their source told them. Details from Wikinews' investigation have been lifted and written into recent coverage of the issue, we did check the Reg. story and we found more
- including bankruptcy proceedings (PACER will give you a list
of the creditors).
Anyway, back to David in Israel, and I assume a fair number of people are aware this is an expenses-paid trip where the Israeli government and friends are footing the bill. David's first piece seeks to say "here is the stereotype, but that's not what I'm here for". If you read the talk you'll see we have some people think you can't do any story about Israel without going "OMG! Israel-Palestine! Car bombs! Terrorists! Human rights violations! Israeli oppression!". I agree with David's argument that this is like saying every coverage of the U.S. should have an aside about Camp Delta in Guantanamo - and I *know* people who'd do that too - we've had to ban idiots like that from Wikinews in the past.
I'd like people on the list to read this with a critical eye and see what they think about Wikinews developing policies and structure to allow this sort of reporting. Keep any eye out for David's forthcoming reports. The indications I have from private email are that they're keeping their journalist guests busy about 12-14 hours a day and if they don't have breakfast with Israeli technologists it's probably the only meal of the day they're getting off the job. Not a holiday by any means.
Brian McNeil
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http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Israel_Journal:_The_Holy_Land_has_an_image_probl...
This works.
On Dec 19, 2007 9:22 AM, Nathan Awrich nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
Link appears to be broken.
On Dec 19, 2007 8:59 AM, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
You've made your opinion perfectly clear on-wiki. I am seeking a wider consultation, not a continuation of that argument in a different venue.
Brian McNeil
-----Original Message----- From: foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of wikinewssvt@optonline.net Sent: 19 December 2007 14:48 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] David Shankbone in Israel
In my opinion, the first-hand story-telling nature of this article, is a clear violation of WN:NPOV which is not just a Wikinews policy, but also a Foundation issue (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view).
Don't get me wrong, it is great journalism, which could prove to be a coup for Wikinews, raising its profile. However, it is incongruent with existing policies.
Ultimately, I fear that allowing this may be like opening Pandora's box.
Sincerely, SVTCobra (http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/User:SVTCobra)
----- Original Message ----- From: Brian McNeil Date: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:09 am Subject: [Foundation-l] David Shankbone in Israel To: 'Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List' Cc: David Shankbone
David Shankbone's first report from Israel
(http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Israel_Journal:_The_Holy_Land_has_an_image_prob
lem) has provoked a bit of controversy. One reaction I got was "why the segue into the COO issue?" It annoys me to see that the MSM are now picking this up (the COO issue) and whilst The Register broke the story I don't think they did anything beyond fact-check what their source told them. Details from Wikinews' investigation have been lifted and written into recent coverage of the issue, we did check the Reg. story and we found more
- including bankruptcy proceedings (PACER will give you a list
of the creditors).
Anyway, back to David in Israel, and I assume a fair number of people are aware this is an expenses-paid trip where the Israeli government and friends are footing the bill. David's first piece seeks to say "here is the stereotype, but that's not what I'm here for". If you read the talk you'll see we have some people think you can't do any story about Israel without going "OMG! Israel-Palestine! Car bombs! Terrorists! Human rights violations! Israeli oppression!". I agree with David's argument that this is like saying every coverage of the U.S. should have an aside about Camp Delta in Guantanamo - and I *know* people who'd do that too - we've had to ban idiots like that from Wikinews in the past.
I'd like people on the list to read this with a critical eye and see what they think about Wikinews developing policies and structure to allow this sort of reporting. Keep any eye out for David's forthcoming reports. The indications I have from private email are that they're keeping their journalist guests busy about 12-14 hours a day and if they don't have breakfast with Israeli technologists it's probably the only meal of the day they're getting off the job. Not a holiday by any means.
Brian McNeil
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Hoi, When existing policies do not work, change the policies. Thanks, GerardM
On Dec 19, 2007 2:48 PM, wikinewssvt@optonline.net wrote:
In my opinion, the first-hand story-telling nature of this article, is a clear violation of WN:NPOV which is not just a Wikinews policy, but also a Foundation issue (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view).
Don't get me wrong, it is great journalism, which could prove to be a coup for Wikinews, raising its profile. However, it is incongruent with existing policies.
Ultimately, I fear that allowing this may be like opening Pandora's box.
Sincerely, SVTCobra (http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/User:SVTCobra)
----- Original Message ----- From: Brian McNeil Date: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:09 am Subject: [Foundation-l] David Shankbone in Israel To: 'Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List' Cc: David Shankbone
David Shankbone's first report from Israel (
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Israel_Journal:_The_Holy_Land_has_an_image_prob
lem) has provoked a bit of controversy. One reaction I got was "why the segue into the COO issue?" It annoys me to see that the MSM are now picking this up (the COO issue) and whilst The Register broke the story I don't think they did anything beyond fact-check what their source told them. Details from Wikinews' investigation have been lifted and written into recent coverage of the issue, we did check the Reg. story and we found more
- including bankruptcy proceedings (PACER will give you a list
of the creditors).
Anyway, back to David in Israel, and I assume a fair number of people are aware this is an expenses-paid trip where the Israeli government and friends are footing the bill. David's first piece seeks to say "here is the stereotype, but that's not what I'm here for". If you read the talk you'll see we have some people think you can't do any story about Israel without going "OMG! Israel-Palestine! Car bombs! Terrorists! Human rights violations! Israeli oppression!". I agree with David's argument that this is like saying every coverage of the U.S. should have an aside about Camp Delta in Guantanamo - and I *know* people who'd do that too - we've had to ban idiots like that from Wikinews in the past.
I'd like people on the list to read this with a critical eye and see what they think about Wikinews developing policies and structure to allow this sort of reporting. Keep any eye out for David's forthcoming reports. The indications I have from private email are that they're keeping their journalist guests busy about 12-14 hours a day and if they don't have breakfast with Israeli technologists it's probably the only meal of the day they're getting off the job. Not a holiday by any means.
Brian McNeil
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Agreed. The tone is clearly not one of an article, but this type of journal or blog is not uncommon for newspapers now. The NY Times publishes many blogs, and more than a few 'Reporters Notebook' columns by reporters who are not generally columnists. I think the difference is that they do it to appeal to a broader base, particularly online, after they have already long mastered the production of regular news items. Gerard points out that there are 4 to 14 news items - it might be wise to build a reputation of standard, high quality journalism first. There is a proliferation of blogs in the world these days. Still, if Wikinews reporters enjoy and get the opportunity to do this kind of work I see no issue - as long as it is plainly noted as a non-news piece in the header. (Regarding the criticism of bringing in the COO issue - if I were editing that column, I would've cut it out).
Nathan
On Dec 19, 2007 11:16 AM, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, When existing policies do not work, change the policies. Thanks, GerardM
On Dec 19, 2007 2:48 PM, wikinewssvt@optonline.net wrote:
In my opinion, the first-hand story-telling nature of this article, is a clear violation of WN:NPOV which is not just a Wikinews policy, but also a Foundation issue (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view).
Don't get me wrong, it is great journalism, which could prove to be a coup for Wikinews, raising its profile. However, it is incongruent with existing policies.
Ultimately, I fear that allowing this may be like opening Pandora's box.
Sincerely, SVTCobra (http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/User:SVTCobra)
----- Original Message ----- From: Brian McNeil Date: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:09 am Subject: [Foundation-l] David Shankbone in Israel To: 'Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List' Cc: David Shankbone
David Shankbone's first report from Israel (
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Israel_Journal:_The_Holy_Land_has_an_image_prob
lem) has provoked a bit of controversy. One reaction I got was "why the segue into the COO issue?" It annoys me to see that the MSM are now picking this up (the COO issue) and whilst The Register broke the story I don't think they did anything beyond fact-check what their source told them. Details from Wikinews' investigation have been lifted and written into recent coverage of the issue, we did check the Reg. story and we found more
- including bankruptcy proceedings (PACER will give you a list
of the creditors).
Anyway, back to David in Israel, and I assume a fair number of people are aware this is an expenses-paid trip where the Israeli government and friends are footing the bill. David's first piece seeks to say "here is the stereotype, but that's not what I'm here for". If you read the talk you'll see we have some people think you can't do any story about Israel without going "OMG! Israel-Palestine! Car bombs! Terrorists! Human rights violations! Israeli oppression!". I agree with David's argument that this is like saying every coverage of the U.S. should have an aside about Camp Delta in Guantanamo - and I *know* people who'd do that too - we've had to ban idiots like that from Wikinews in the past.
I'd like people on the list to read this with a critical eye and see what they think about Wikinews developing policies and structure to allow this sort of reporting. Keep any eye out for David's forthcoming reports. The indications I have from private email are that they're keeping their journalist guests busy about 12-14 hours a day and if they don't have breakfast with Israeli technologists it's probably the only meal of the day they're getting off the job. Not a holiday by any means.
Brian McNeil
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Hoi, Wikinews has a problem. When I notice the coverage of Wikinews. It is more then four and less then fourteen news items a day. The interviews, a report like the trip to Israel, are different. Wikinews needs to be different because as far as I am concerned it did not find its niche yet.
In my opinion doing stuff like this is daring, it makes a difference and it is interesting. It is definetly not boring and predictable. So my answer to your question is, Wikinews is experimenting here and that is good. Without it there is little to show for all the effort. When you get the mix right, you will get your audience and you may be able to make Wikipedia an offer it cannot refuse. But first you have to work on gettin the right mix. Thanks, GerardM
On Dec 19, 2007 11:09 AM, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
David Shankbone's first report from Israel ( http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Israel_Journal:_The_Holy_Land_has_an_image_prob lem) has provoked a bit of controversy. One reaction I got was "why the segue into the COO issue?" It annoys me to see that the MSM are now picking this up (the COO issue) and whilst The Register broke the story I don't think they did anything beyond fact-check what their source told them. Details from Wikinews' investigation have been lifted and written into recent coverage of the issue, we did check the Reg. story and we found more
- including bankruptcy proceedings (PACER will give you a list of the
creditors).
Anyway, back to David in Israel, and I assume a fair number of people are aware this is an expenses-paid trip where the Israeli government and friends are footing the bill. David's first piece seeks to say "here is the stereotype, but that's not what I'm here for". If you read the talk you'll see we have some people think you can't do any story about Israel without going "OMG! Israel-Palestine! Car bombs! Terrorists! Human rights violations! Israeli oppression!". I agree with David's argument that this is like saying every coverage of the U.S. should have an aside about Camp Delta in Guantanamo - and I *know* people who'd do that too - we've had to ban idiots like that from Wikinews in the past.
I'd like people on the list to read this with a critical eye and see what they think about Wikinews developing policies and structure to allow this sort of reporting. Keep any eye out for David's forthcoming reports. The indications I have from private email are that they're keeping their journalist guests busy about 12-14 hours a day and if they don't have breakfast with Israeli technologists it's probably the only meal of the day they're getting off the job. Not a holiday by any means.
Brian McNeil
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On 19/12/2007, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
If you read the talk you'll see we have some people think you can't do any story about Israel without going "OMG! Israel-Palestine! Car bombs! Terrorists! Human rights violations! Israeli oppression!".
You can. However missing the recent changes to Israeli copyright law is more worrying.
To be honest, there aren't really a lot of substantial changes.
On Dec 19, 2007 7:28 PM, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 19/12/2007, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org wrote:
If you read the talk you'll see we have some people think you can't do any story about Israel
without
going "OMG! Israel-Palestine! Car bombs! Terrorists! Human rights violations! Israeli oppression!".
You can. However missing the recent changes to Israeli copyright law is more worrying.
-- geni
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On 20/12/2007, Yonatan Horan yonatanh@gmail.com wrote:
To be honest, there aren't really a lot of substantial changes.
The switch from fair dealing to fair use? The changes to crown copyright (which I still haven't managed to get all the details on)?
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