This is a tricky situation. I personally don't see a problem with non wikimedians helping out as long as they are working in accordance with the mission statement and are willing to work with Wikimedians. Sincerely; Geoffrey Plourde Desculpem a má tradução, eu não falam Português. Esta é uma situação delicada. Eu pessoalmente não vejo um problema com wikimedians não ajudar, desde que estejam trabalhando em conformidade com a declaração de missão e estão dispostos a trabalhar com Wikimedians. Atenciosamente; Geoffrey Plourde ________________________________ From: Luiz Augusto <lugusto(a)gmail.com> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 5:14:22 PM Subject: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians I will try whit my poor enghish report a problem that are in discuss in mailling list of the brazilian chapter[1]. In the end of this text, are the original text in portuguese, for try to minimalize the comunicacion mistakes. Brazil have 8,514,877 km² of extesion and more of 190,000,000 inhabitants, in 26 states[2]. Build a local chapter in Brazil is very complicated. Since 2006, that is the dream of some users, but they never have a significant number of wikimedians living in a same geografic region. In the beging of 2008, ist created a meta-wiki page to centralize the ideias for a local chapter[3]. follow the example of the wikimedians in Portugal[4]. After that, people that never edited in anyone project of wikimedia appears to participate. That people are welcome and beging to work whit the brazilians wikimedians. The time are past, the people interested but whitout free time are gone (exactly like ist happened in every others times that the brazilian local chapter have been discuss by the comunity). The people that never participated before of the wikimedians projects ended up taking the front of several efforts and achieved progress, include the aproval of Wikimedia[5]. The same group of no-wikimedians managed to organize an event with the participation of Jimmy Wales[6]. I imagine that Jimmy think that the event is realize by wikimedians, therefore, before proceeding, let me make it clear: people who organized that event never participated in any Wikimedia project before. Mediators of the debate either. A common concern in various wikipedians and wikimedians is on the future of this local chapter. If they continue the current way, he will not be composed of people from the Wikimedia projects, will only a support organization with no one wikimedian. There is even the fear of Wikimedia's name be used in an NGO ([[w:NGO]]) if it no more of an organizational issue that receives money from the Brazilian government to carry out certain activities, but in order not to hold agreed on how (such as those investigated by Brazilian senators[7], do not know how it is in other countries, but in Brazil the NGOs receive money from the government in exchange for doing something that the government should do but can not). My opinion on the subject: I am very against the local chapter of the Brazilian continue current form. I would rather wait a few more years and see it being done by wikimedians to see it being done for people who do not participate in Wikimedia. If the desire of that people in help Wikimedia Foundation is legitimate, I imagine that should open some other kind of institution, but without using the trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation. Should the Wikimedia Brazil continue the current form or should be aborted for a little longer? (other peoples have speak in similar terms of mine on the mailing list[1]. I invited them to the foundation-l for addition views to this discussion, then to this message, in wikimediabr-l disclose the existence of my questioning here on foundation-l.) [[:m:User:555]] [1] - http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediabr-l/ [2] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil [3] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Brasil&dir=prev&a… [4] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Portugal&dir=prev… [5] - http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Approval_of_Wikimedia_Brasil [6] - http://wikibr.org/ [7] - http://www.senado.gov.br/sf/atividade/Comissoes/consComCPI.asp?com=1382 (thanks to [[:m:User:Beria]] for the translation!) ---- Message in Portuguese: Vou tentar com meu limitado inglês relatar um problema que está sendo discutido na lista de discussão sobre o local chapter brasileiro[1]. Anexo ao final do texto em inglês o meu rascunho inicial em português, para tentar reduzir ao máximo as possibilidades de falha de comunicação. O Brasil possui 8,514,877 km² de extensão e mais de 190,000,000 de habitantes, divididos em 26 estados[2]. Constituir um local chapter nele é algo bastante trabalhoso: desde 2006 isso é almejado por alguns usuários, mas jamais foi possível reunir uma quantia razoável de wikimedianos experientes morando na mesma região geográfica. No começo deste ano, foi criada uma página no Meta-Wiki para centralizar esforços relativos à criação de um local chapter no Brasil[3], seguindo-se o exemplo tomado pelos desejosos de um em Portugal[4]. Com a criação de tal página sobre o brasileiro, apareceram pessoas que jamais editaram antes em algum projeto Wikimedia interessadas em participar. Tais pessoas foram inicialmente bem-acolhidas e começaram a trabalhar juntamente aos wikimedianos brasileiros. O tempo foi passando, as pessoas entusiasmadas mas sem disponibilidade de ajudar começaram a se afastar (tal como ocorrido em todas as tentativas anteriores de discutir sobre o tema). As pessoas que jamais participaram anteriormente de projetos Wikimedia acabaram tomando a frente dos esforços e conseguido diversos progressos, inclusive o de ser aprovarem os seus esforços perante a Wikimedia[5]. O mesmo grupo de não-Wikimedianos conseguiu organizar um evento que contou com a participação do Jimmy Wales[6]. Imagino que o próprio Jimmy tenha pensado que se tratavam de wikimedianos, por isso, antes de prosseguir, quero deixar bem claro: as pessoas que organizaram tal evento jamais participaram de algum projeto Wikimedia antes. Os mediadores do debate idem. Uma preocupação comum em diversos wikipedistas e wikimedianos é sobre o futuro de tal local chapter. Se ele continuar prosseguindo da forma atual, ele não será composto por pessoas vindas dos projetos Wikimedia, será apenas uma organização de apoio, sem ninguém das wikis. Há até mesmo o receio do nome da Wikimedia ser utilizado em uma ONG ([[:w:NGO]]) que não passe de mais uma organização problemática que recebe dinheiro do governo brasileiro para executar determinadas atividades, mas que no fim não as realiza da forma como acordada (tais como as investigadas pelos senadores brasileiros [7]; não sei como é em outros países, mas no Brasil as NGOs recebem dinheiro do governo em troca de fazer alguma coisa que o governo deveria fazer mas não consegue). Minha opinião sobre o tema: sou extremamente contra que o local chapter brasileiro prossiga da forma atual. Preferia aguardar mais alguns anos e ver ele sendo feito pelos wikimedianos do que por pessoas que não participam da Wikimedia. Caso a vontade delas de ajudar a Wikimedia Foundation seja legítima, imagino que deveriam abrir algum outro tipo de instituição, mas sem usar a marca registrada da Wikimedia Foundation. Deve a Wikimedia Brasil prosseguir da forma atual ou deve ser abortada por mais algum tempo? (Outras pessoas tem opinado de forma parecida à mim na lista de discussão[1]. Convidei algumas delas para a foundation-l para opinarem nesta discussão além de, em seguida à esta mensagem, divulgar na wikimediabr-l a existência deste meu questionamento aqui na foundation-l.) [1] - http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediabr-l/ [2] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil [3] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Brasil&dir=prev&a… [4] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Portugal&dir=prev… [5] - http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Approval_of_Wikimedia_Brasil [6] - http://wikibr.org/ [7] - http://www.senado.gov.br/sf/atividade/Comissoes/consComCPI.asp?com=1382 _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

I personally believe that no one should be marginalized in making this chapter a reality. If non Wikimedians are dedicated enough to >assist then they should be welcomed as brothers and sisters. The reports of marginalization do disturb me although I am not qualified >to render an opinion in this area due to lack of experience. I would strongly recommend that these concerns be forwarded to the >Chapters Committee for use in chapter approval and as something to keep an eye on.

Someone said for we change the bylaws to protect Wikimedia Brasil. We try that, but every time when we tried... We have been silenced with the argument: "The Wikimedia approved the bylaws of the way that is"

I believe under the Chapters Agreement the WMF and the chapters have to notify each other if there are substantial changes planned in their bylaws, but not of all changes [in my interpretation]. "7.2. The Chapter shall be required to advise the Foundation of any planned or actual change in the bylaws or status of the Chapter which might affect the Foundation or the continued existence or effectiveness of this contract. 7.3. The Foundation shall be required to advise the Chapter of any planned or actual change in the bylaws or status of the Foundation which might affect the Chapter or the continued existence or effectiveness of this agreement."

I know, speed should not be an issue, but seeing as all members of the ChapCom need to vote on the bylaws any re-vote would significantly extend the approval time, and [following the proposed procedure] postpone the registration of the chapter with the authorities, and this in time would have a detrimental effect on the community [who have to wait a loger time before they can actually start working on chapter business])

I would not object if it was explicitly stated on the ChapCom's page on meta that the ChapCom should be notified of changes to the bylaws even after they have approved a version of it, on the other hand it should be clearly stated as well what authorisation the ChapCom would have to revoke their approval (before and after the Board's resolution of actual approval) after such a notification, if they do not like it.

2008/11/24 Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com>om>: I understand that chapter agreements (certainly the WMUKv1 one) usually include provision where either side can withdraw from the trademark agreement with a few months' notice. Though of course if an organisation wasn't happy with that provision being invoked they may well be able to argue the point in court.

Having just visited there, I can say with some confidence that discussion of people refusing to cease using the trademarks is wildly off base. The people at WMF-Brasil are not bad guys. I just spent 3 days there. If there is a problem, I see no obstacles to working it out.

Having just visited there, I can say with some confidence that discussion of people refusing to cease using the trademarks is wildly off base. The people at WMF-Brasil are not bad guys. I just spent 3 days there. If there is a problem, I see no obstacles to working it out. I will be seeing thomas (the main organizer of my trip) the day after thanksgiving in florida.

The last few posts are discussing the operation of ChapCom, and the relationship generally between chapters and the WMF. Valuable discussions (although, in a sense, separate) but seemingly not what the initial e-mails were requesting. The question is, if the characterization of the Wikimedia Brasil is accurate (i.e. comprised mainly of non-editors, hostile to editors, authoritarian to the extent of banning discussion of chapter composition and goals, etc.) what can be done? The answer may be nothing at all, and its possible (in light if Jimmy's email) that there is a misunderstanding at the source of this problem. Whether something can be done from afar or not... Beria, Luiz and Porantim are entitled to have the discussion focus at least initially on the specific problem they point out. I suspect that there is very little that can be done - the Foundation, and ChapCom, have almost no control over the operations of any chapter. Even withdrawing permission to use the Wikimedia-related intellectual property (without prejudging the need for that in this case, of course) would need to be backed up in court in Brasil if a chapter refused to comply. Luiz, have there been any responses from members of WM-Brasil indicating their desire to engage on this list (or on any list, I suppose) on this dispute? If they join the discussion on Foundation-l, perhaps the mediation of Florence or Jimmy (or Michael or Andrew) could help you come to an understanding. Nathan _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Nathan wrote: accurate to Having spent 3 days there working with Thomas morning to night, I think it is almost certainly some kind of misunderstanding. Editors are very welcome, there is no hostility to editors, and there is no authoritarianism at all. It is actually quite funny and ironic that this charge is being put forward, because Thomas very much takes the opposite approach from authoritarianism. --Jimbo _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Porantim wrote: is believe about In my experience with Thomas, he does not seem like the kind of person who would be denying the opportunity for people to debate, and indeed, he was quite clear with me that he's not a dictator (indeed, I got quite the opposite idea from him, that he's a believer in lots of independent action loosely coordinated... the wiki way). I am meeting Thomas on Friday, and of course this will be our main topic of conversation. I really think these issues should be quite easy to resolve. --Jimbo _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

If you are convinced that this is not personal, and that there is an issue, then please provide evidence. Otherwise, this looks like bunch of people who are unhappy because their proposal wasn't passed. Geoffrey Plourde ________________________________ From: Porantim <porantim(a)gmail.com> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 2:40:29 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians Jimmy, again, the problem isn't personal. Please, dont't try to take this way. -- Porantim 2008/11/25 Jimmy Wales <jwales(a)wikia-inc.com> _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Jimmy, again, the problem isn't personal. Please, dont't try to take this way.

on 11/25/08 5:35 PM, Jimmy Wales at jwales(a)wikia-inc.com wrote: lots of independent Jimmy, In this type of "loosely coordinated" situation, how do you prevent the more aggressive persons from dominating a project?

Marc Riddell wrote: I am unaware of any chapters having a problem with aggressive people dominating. Normally, though, I would say that lots of independent action loosely coordinated is a really good way to route around aggressive people. If we are worried about aggressive people dominating, then we want to avoid structures and social customs that allow for top-down authoritarianism as the primary mode of operation.

Democracy is still the enemy of autocracy. Also if a chapter gets really bad, people will vote with their dues and chapter will soon find itself in the red.

Nathan wrote: accurate to Having spent 3 days there working with Thomas morning to night, I think it is almost certainly some kind of misunderstanding.  Editors are very welcome, there is no hostility to editors, and there is no authoritarianism at all.  It is actually quite funny and ironic that this charge is being put forward, because Thomas very much takes the opposite approach from authoritarianism. --Jimbo _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Your problem (mine and of the boys) is NOT that have non wikimedians in brazilian chapter. Is because that non wikimedians hostilize every wikimedian and don't permite anyone discussion... every is taboo.

Someone said for we change the bylaws to protect Wikimedia Brasil. We try that, but every time when we tried... We have been silenced with the argument: "The Wikimedia approved the bylaws of the way that is"

5. So far, no legal entity has been created and there is no such a group of Wikimedia representatives.

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com> wrote: group Yes. I somehow thought that Wikimedia Brasil had been incorporated between ChapCom approval. Absolutely. Nota: The approval has already been granted, so if we determine that the entire committee is fine with the changes, we do not need to formally vote on it again and neither does the board. (If part of the committee is not happy, then we'd have to have an internal vote whether we shall issue a de-recommendation resolution, this being the only step we can take if discussion with the chapter fails, but this is highly unlikely) So, it will just be ChapCom looking at it again and determining if it sees problems with it and possibly getting in touch with the chapter again, offering comments. Michael -- Michael Bimmler mbimmler(a)gmail.com _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

I think it is not appropriate that Wikimedia Brasil is listed (and described) as a non-profit organization if it is not yet incorporated: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Local_chapters.

But there is no chapter, just a proposal. The idea of a Brazilian chapter has been approved, but that idea still needs to be implemented. It doesn't make sense to include it on the list of chapters when it doesn't exist.

I know what the resolution says, it doesn't mean it makes sense. There is no "Wikimedia Brasil", so the resolution is pretty meaningless. I think the board ought to wait until the actual contracts are signed before official recognising anything (the resolution could say something like "The board authorises the management to enter negotiations to officially recognise a Brazilian chapter.". The phrase "Wikimedia Brasil" shouldn't be used for anything official until there is a legal entity with permission to use that trademark.

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:17 PM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9(a)yahoo.com> wrote: I disagree, it's a list of approved chapters -- WMBR is approved and is therefore listed.

-- Casey Brown Cbrown1023 --- Note: This e-mail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails sent to this address will probably get lost. _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Bence Damokos &lt;bdamokos(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: You're right about that, the text I was given to put up was a bit misleading; fixed: <http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/?diff=36303>

Michael Bimmler wrote: I think it is not appropriate that Wikimedia Brasil is listed (and described) as a non-profit organization if it is not yet incorporated: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Local_chapters. I also note that the website proposed is not working. Ant _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

This is what we need: to stop the current attempt and start it again

I agree, why the hell should we blow off a couple thousand hours of work and toast a chapter? While there may be some issues in the bylaws and they still need to legally organize, there is more support for this chapter than some of the European ones. My friend, this is starting to appear disruptive. ________________________________ From: Jimmy Wales &lt;jwales(a)wikia-inc.com&gt; To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List &lt;foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt; Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 1:42:35 AM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians Luiz Augusto wrote: Why? _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

2008/11/25 Béria Lima &lt;berialima(a)gmail.com&gt;om>: all Porantim anything that How about some (translated) quotes so we can see what was really going on? Text can be a very inaccurate way of conveying ones point, perhaps Thomas was just misunderstood? Judging by Jimbo's assessment of the guy and your assessment of the situation, it seems the most likely explanation is that there has been a misunderstanding somewhere. _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Beria, I meant no offense by my remarks. I apologize if any was taken, that was not the point. By disruptive, I was not referring to Luiz, but the request to kill a chapter, for the reasons listed below. I don't believe that killing the manifestation of thousands of hours of work is going to solve any dispute. I am going off what we have currently. As far as I can see, we have an assertion that work on bylaws was silenced by Thomas. We have two people that vouch for his character (Mr. Wales, you). We do not have any hard evidence proving that Thomas killed the discussion. If there is some, we should see it. Otherwise, it appears that this is simple dissatisfaction which in my not so humble opinion has no place on this list. Since some people may be unable to follow this thread, I have translated my comments into something that resembles Portuguese. Respectfully Yours; Geoffrey Plourde ----- Beria, Eu quis dizer que não ofenda por minhas observações. Peço desculpas se alguma foi tomada, não foi esse o ponto. Por perturbador, não me referia ao Luiz, mas o pedido de matar um capítulo, pelos motivos listados abaixo. Não creio que matar a manifestação de milhares de horas de trabalho está indo para resolver qualquer litígio. Eu vou desligar o que temos actualmente. Tanto quanto eu posso ver, temos um trabalho em alegação de que foi silenciada pelo Estatuto Social Thomas. Temos duas pessoas que atestam a sua personagem (Mr. País de Gales, você). Nós não temos qualquer evidência sólida de provar que Thomas mataram a discussão. Se houver algum, que devemos encará-la. Caso contrário, parece que este é simples insatisfação que, na minha modesta opinião não assim não tem lugar nesta lista. Uma vez que algumas pessoas pode não ser capaz de seguir essa linha, eu tenho o meu comentário traduzido em algo que se assemelha Português. Yours respeitosamente; Geoffrey Plourde ________________________________ From: Béria Lima &lt;berialima(a)gmail.com&gt; To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List &lt;foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt; Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 3:08:40 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians Geoffrey... The guy whit you are talking is one of the best sysops on pt.wikipedia. Don't be maniqueist please. The case is: Thomas is a good guy... but in the mailing list he stopped all the process of consensus. The problem is not just a discussion of Porantim and Thomas... are more of 10 wikipedist that agree whit Porantim, me and Luiz Augusto. Don't ut that in terms of "dispurtive", "vandal" or anything about that... We are discuss the bylaws again... because that mensage of Luiz. Before that Thomas and another user don't permit the dialog. Att, Béria Lima 2008/11/25 Geoffrey Plourde &lt;geo.plrd(a)yahoo.com&gt; they than _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Porantim wrote: have community, when argument Porantim, I would like to be your friend as well. Please don't take anything that I have said as being a matter of taking sides against you or for Thomas *and* especially not supposing that I have any opinion on the proposed bylaw changes (I don't even know what they are). All that I have said is that I met Thomas, and based on what I know of him, he will be a peace seeker and he has no interest in being any kind of boss or tyrant of the chapter process. Nor is he an aggressive person. I found the suggestions (I don't know who made them first, perhaps not you) that the chapter might be at risk of being used for purposes of money laundering to be a bit over top, and I felt it important to mention what little I do know. Again, I will meet with Thomas, and I will ask him what is going on, and I will recommend to him that everyone should make peace. It is not helpful to suppose that I am putting my "friendship against the interests of the community". --Jimbo _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

The problem don't is people with no edits participate of the chapter, the problem is deny editors to participate.

This subject line is very strange to me: "A chapter without Wikimedians". A member of a Wikimedia organisation is a Wikimedian by definition, he is someone who supports with his fee and his invested sparetime the Wikimedia goals. If someone calls a fellow member "a non Wikimedian", this is at least rude. If someone claims that a fellow member has other goals than Wikimedia and wants to take abuse of the organisation, that is a very serious allegation. An allegation that is better based on evidence and not on stomach feelings. As others have already said, a good Wikimedian is not necessarily an extensive editor. I know of a senior member of Wikimedia Deutschland who is very, very active for our goals, but he told me that he was not allowed to vote for the WMF board this year, because he did not make enough edits the months before. Ziko 2008/11/26 Jimmy Wales &lt;jwales(a)wikia-inc.com&gt; more -- Ziko van Dijk NL-Silvolde _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

When Jimmy puts his personal feelings as the unique argument, no more have to say. When he puts his friendship against the interests of the community, no more remain to do. You know, Jimmy is a kind of symbol to some us, maybe all of us. Then, when he puts this conversation in that maniqueist form, I don't know what more remain. Jimmy has feelings about Thomas. That's OK to me, but there is no argument against that, when that is de unique argument.

Porantim, unfortunately we have a unique set of circumstances here. The fact that the discussions are in a language that many may be unable to read is a major hindrance. If you can point to the particular posts, then you will have met the proof issue. That being said, I do have some questions, mainly about why the chapter is still not legally organized, and whether or not the bylaws are legally ok as written. The membership section still disturbs me. ---- Porantim, infelizmente, temos um único conjunto de circunstâncias aqui. O fato de que as discussões estão em um idioma que muitos podem ser incapazes de ler é um grande entrave. Se você pode apontar para os lugares particular, então você vai ter atendido a prova questão. Dito isto, ainda tenho algumas dúvidas, principalmente sobre o motivo do capítulo ainda não está legalmente organizada, e se existem ou não são juridicamente o estatuto social ok como está escrita. A filiação seção ainda me perturba. ________________________________ From: Porantim &lt;porantim(a)gmail.com&gt; To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List &lt;foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt; Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:27:44 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians Geoffrey, We came here, on this list, looking for other opinions. Looking for any kind of light. We don't really need that you *make* somethink, but we need your expertise, we need your view, your look [I don't know how I can say that]. We came here to open your eyes about the danger of a chapter without clear positions can make, too. Nobody says "work on bylaws was silenced *by Thomas*", but the evidences of the problems is in our discussion list. Unfortunately, we can't translate all the messages to english to show that and I think you have a lot of other issues to take care. Nobody request to "kill" a chapter too. We request to start again. Start again because the process has transformed in a addicted process. *This* addicted process is "killing the manifestation of thousands of hours of work". You see? Any way, perhaps this conversation can't make anythink more. When Jimmy puts his personal feelings as the unique argument, no more have to say. When he puts his friendship against the interests of the community, no more remain to do. You know, Jimmy is a kind of symbol to some us, maybe all of us. Then, when he puts this conversation in that maniqueist form, I don't know what more remain. Jimmy has feelings about Thomas. That's OK to me, but there is no argument against that, when that is de unique argument. I apologize to do you lost your time. My hope is that I am wrong (and the remain of brazillian wikimedians) and Jimmy and his friend are rigth. I apologize too if any of my words sounds offensive. I can't speak english well. Thanks Geoffrey about your care in try to translate your messages to portuguese. Saludos -- Porantim 2008/11/26 Geoffrey Plourde &lt;geo.plrd(a)yahoo.com&gt; request currently. silenced you). discussion. my all Porantim anything work foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt; _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 7:50 AM, Béria Lima &lt;berialima(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: The problem is that there isn't any real way to judge these situations prior to chapcom approval. When we get bylaws from a chapter group, we only know the things that we've been told about the organization, and the things we've heard by chance. We don't do any kind of investigation, or go out of our way to solicit feedback from the community. We also don't have a strict requirement that new chapters contain any number of active wikimedians. Red flags obviously go up if we find a group that doesn't contain any, but I'm not sure such a group couldn't get approved if they tried hard enough under the current system. Something like a public hearing over all new bylaws would help to eliminate these problems, assuming active wikimedians attended such meetings and raised objections. Of course, having to schedule and organize such a meeting, even a virtual one over IRC, would dramatically increase the amount of time that it takes for bylaws to clear the committee. The Brazil group would have even made this more difficult because they made it clear to us that they were under time pressure due to Jimmy's visit. So many chapters have told us that significant delays in approval by the chapcom and the board have a chilling effect on a chapter, sometimes an insurmountable one because of lost enthusiasm and momentum. The closest solution that I can imagine, and I'm not speaking as a chapcom member right now, would be to create chapters in some sort of probationary status for a year or so, before they become "official". This way we could identify those groups that don't meet our expectations in practice (as opposed to the "on paper" review they get now) and rescind their status because of that. It might be worthwhile for the community to review exactly what requirements are needed to become and to remain a chapter. Chapters are independent organizations and do not need chapcom/WMF approval to change their bylaws. As Michael says, we usually like to hear about changes, just as we like to hear about any other news from chapters. If we become aware of changes that are highly negative we might review them to see that the chapter still meets our expectations, but this has never happened so I am only speculating. We simply don't have the infrastructure to keep track of every change made by every chapter to their bylaws, their operating procedures, or their membership composition. The chapcom is definitely going to discuss this issue, but lots of feedback and ideas will be appreciated. --Andrew Whitworth _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

I will try whit my poor enghish report a problem that are in discuss in mailling list of the brazilian chapter[1]. In the end of this text, are the original text in portuguese, for try to minimalize the comunicacion mistakes. Brazil have 8,514,877 km² of extesion and more of 190,000,000 inhabitants, in 26 states[2]. Build a local chapter in Brazil is very complicated. Since 2006, that is the dream of some users, but they never have a significant number of wikimedians living in a same geografic region. In the beging of 2008, ist created a meta-wiki page to centralize the ideias for a local chapter[3]. follow the example of the wikimedians in Portugal[4]. After that, people that never edited in anyone project of wikimedia appears to participate. That people are welcome and beging to work whit the brazilians wikimedians. The time are past, the people interested but whitout free time are gone (exactly like ist happened in every others times that the brazilian local chapter have been discuss by the comunity). The people that never participated before of the wikimedians projects ended up taking the front of several efforts and achieved progress, include the aproval of Wikimedia[5]. The same group of no-wikimedians managed to organize an event with the participation of Jimmy Wales[6]. I imagine that Jimmy think that the event is realize by wikimedians, therefore, before proceeding, let me make it clear: people who organized that event never participated in any Wikimedia project before. Mediators of the debate either. A common concern in various wikipedians and wikimedians is on the future of this local chapter. If they continue the current way, he will not be composed of people from the Wikimedia projects, will only a support organization with no one wikimedian. There is even the fear of Wikimedia's name be used in an NGO ([[w:NGO]]) if it no more of an organizational issue that receives money from the Brazilian government to carry out certain activities, but in order not to hold agreed on how (such as those investigated by Brazilian senators[7], do not know how it is in other countries, but in Brazil the NGOs receive money from the government in exchange for doing something that the government should do but can not). My opinion on the subject: I am very against the local chapter of the Brazilian continue current form. I would rather wait a few more years and see it being done by wikimedians to see it being done for people who do not participate in Wikimedia. If the desire of that people in help Wikimedia Foundation is legitimate, I imagine that should open some other kind of institution, but without using the trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation. Should the Wikimedia Brazil continue the current form or should be aborted for a little longer? (other peoples have speak in similar terms of mine on the mailing list[1]. I invited them to the foundation-l for addition views to this discussion, then to this message, in wikimediabr-l disclose the existence of my questioning here on foundation-l.) [[:m:User:555]] [1] - http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediabr-l/ [2] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil [3] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Brasil&dir=prev&a… [4] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Portugal&dir=prev… [5] - http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Approval_of_Wikimedia_Brasil [6] - http://wikibr.org/ [7] - http://www.senado.gov.br/sf/atividade/Comissoes/consComCPI.asp?com=1382 (thanks to [[:m:User:Beria]] for the translation!) ---- Message in Portuguese: Vou tentar com meu limitado inglês relatar um problema que está sendo discutido na lista de discussão sobre o local chapter brasileiro[1]. Anexo ao final do texto em inglês o meu rascunho inicial em português, para tentar reduzir ao máximo as possibilidades de falha de comunicação. O Brasil possui 8,514,877 km² de extensão e mais de 190,000,000 de habitantes, divididos em 26 estados[2]. Constituir um local chapter nele é algo bastante trabalhoso: desde 2006 isso é almejado por alguns usuários, mas jamais foi possível reunir uma quantia razoável de wikimedianos experientes morando na mesma região geográfica. No começo deste ano, foi criada uma página no Meta-Wiki para centralizar esforços relativos à criação de um local chapter no Brasil[3], seguindo-se o exemplo tomado pelos desejosos de um em Portugal[4]. Com a criação de tal página sobre o brasileiro, apareceram pessoas que jamais editaram antes em algum projeto Wikimedia interessadas em participar. Tais pessoas foram inicialmente bem-acolhidas e começaram a trabalhar juntamente aos wikimedianos brasileiros. O tempo foi passando, as pessoas entusiasmadas mas sem disponibilidade de ajudar começaram a se afastar (tal como ocorrido em todas as tentativas anteriores de discutir sobre o tema). As pessoas que jamais participaram anteriormente de projetos Wikimedia acabaram tomando a frente dos esforços e conseguido diversos progressos, inclusive o de ser aprovarem os seus esforços perante a Wikimedia[5]. O mesmo grupo de não-Wikimedianos conseguiu organizar um evento que contou com a participação do Jimmy Wales[6]. Imagino que o próprio Jimmy tenha pensado que se tratavam de wikimedianos, por isso, antes de prosseguir, quero deixar bem claro: as pessoas que organizaram tal evento jamais participaram de algum projeto Wikimedia antes. Os mediadores do debate idem. Uma preocupação comum em diversos wikipedistas e wikimedianos é sobre o futuro de tal local chapter. Se ele continuar prosseguindo da forma atual, ele não será composto por pessoas vindas dos projetos Wikimedia, será apenas uma organização de apoio, sem ninguém das wikis. Há até mesmo o receio do nome da Wikimedia ser utilizado em uma ONG ([[:w:NGO]]) que não passe de mais uma organização problemática que recebe dinheiro do governo brasileiro para executar determinadas atividades, mas que no fim não as realiza da forma como acordada (tais como as investigadas pelos senadores brasileiros [7]; não sei como é em outros países, mas no Brasil as NGOs recebem dinheiro do governo em troca de fazer alguma coisa que o governo deveria fazer mas não consegue). Minha opinião sobre o tema: sou extremamente contra que o local chapter brasileiro prossiga da forma atual. Preferia aguardar mais alguns anos e ver ele sendo feito pelos wikimedianos do que por pessoas que não participam da Wikimedia. Caso a vontade delas de ajudar a Wikimedia Foundation seja legítima, imagino que deveriam abrir algum outro tipo de instituição, mas sem usar a marca registrada da Wikimedia Foundation. Deve a Wikimedia Brasil prosseguir da forma atual ou deve ser abortada por mais algum tempo? (Outras pessoas tem opinado de forma parecida à mim na lista de discussão[1]. Convidei algumas delas para a foundation-l para opinarem nesta discussão além de, em seguida à esta mensagem, divulgar na wikimediabr-l a existência deste meu questionamento aqui na foundation-l.) [1] - http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediabr-l/ [2] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil [3] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Brasil&dir=prev&a… [4] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Portugal&dir=prev… [5] - http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Approval_of_Wikimedia_Brasil [6] - http://wikibr.org/ [7] - http://www.senado.gov.br/sf/atividade/Comissoes/consComCPI.asp?com=1382 _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l