Hi Gnangarra, I'm quite confused, because practically all the samples I looked at from https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wp/nys are articles *in English*, not in Nyungar. A new language edition of Wikipedia needs to be *in that language*, not content in another language (in this case English) *about* that language and its culture, etc. The content as it presently stands should either be incorporated into the English Wikipedia (although with their stringent notability criteria I'm afraid a lot, if not most it, would be deleted) or into a separate wiki. Is there something I'm missing? 2017-12-16 4:05 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra &lt;gnangarra(a)wikimedia.org.au&gt;au>: > Kaya Folks > > We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and continue to > expand the translations and the article content. As I see it we are ready > to go, > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/W > ikipedia_Nyungar > > -- > Gideon Digby > Vice President - Wikimedia Australia > M: 0434 986 852 > gnangarra(a)wikimedia.org.au > http://wikimedia.org.au > > Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation > which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your > donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. > *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate <https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate>* > > > > _______________________________________________ > Langcom mailing list > Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom > > -- mvh Jon Harald Søby

wrote:

Hoi, We have a situation where it makes sense to provide a platform for the Noongar language and culture. As you will read in the thread, Wikipedia is not the platform for this because of the hostility against subjects that lack "sources". The Noongar language is largely oral so much of the content will be in English.. So the question for you and the Wikimedia board is: can we provide room for them probably under a different platform name? Thanks, GerardM On 19 December 2017 at 10:26, Gnangarra &lt;gnangarra(a)wikimedia.org.au&gt; wrote: > Kaya > > I did raise my concerns about the use of english when in Berlin and > was told that it was ok, I'll focus on getting more of it translated though > I hope this doesnt hold the project. > > One of our key issues is that Noongar is an oral language and written > form is the result of european records, those records have created a > situation where the written language is different dependent on the language > the person spoke. We people like Salvado a Spanish Benedictine monk who's > spelling used a mixture of spanish and latin depending on the sounds. Then > there are various English, Welsh and Celtic settlers along with dutch, > french, and german explorers all of whom recorded it in their own > orthographies... One top of the region in which the language was spoken is > larger than UK and like the UK areas had their own unique dialects despite > speaking the same language. The beauty of this that some words can have > more than 25 different spellings. > > The Noongar community came together in the early 1990's to establish a > more consistent use of spellings to enable the language to be taught in > schools, currently there are about 50 schools across the WA teaching > Noongar. The simple act of translating the 762 most important messages > has been a complex task of consultations with many groups, spread across > the regions. When it came to writing content we encouraged two things one > was localised spelling as we do for english and recording the > knowledge(Katitjin). Knowing all of this background and having > experienced many a waagnkininy about language over the last 4 years ( all > early work was hosted by WMAU) the decision was taken for inclusiveness > to allow english while the community is being built as we dont want to be > seen a preferencing any specific one of the 15-20 different regional groups. > > Because of the survival of Noongar and continual use as a language > despite laws, aided by it's adoption in to South West Australian english > its probably one of the most complex living languages Wikimedia Movement > will ever see. > > The value and future benefits to the movement of allowing the move now > far exceeds the cost in using a few words of english in its initial phase. > As always members are welcome to come to WA to experience firsthand a > living language and culture that has been in continual use for 50,000+ > years. > > Boodar > Gnangarra > > > > On 18 December 2017 at 21:43, Jon Harald Søby &lt;jhsoby(a)gmail.com&gt; > wrote: > >> Hi Gnangarra, >> >> I'm quite confused, because practically all the samples I looked at >> from https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wp/nys are >> articles *in English*, not in Nyungar. A new language edition of >> Wikipedia needs to be *in that language*, not content in another >> language (in this case English) *about* that language and its >> culture, etc. The content as it presently stands should either be >> incorporated into the English Wikipedia (although with their stringent >> notability criteria I'm afraid a lot, if not most it, would be deleted) or >> into a separate wiki. >> >> Is there something I'm missing? >> >> 2017-12-16 4:05 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra &lt;gnangarra(a)wikimedia.org.au&gt;au>: >> >>> Kaya Folks >>> >>> We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and continue >>> to expand the translations and the article content. As I see it we are >>> ready to go, >>> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/W >>> ikipedia_Nyungar >>> >>> -- >>> Gideon Digby >>> Vice President - Wikimedia Australia >>> M: 0434 986 852 >>> gnangarra(a)wikimedia.org.au >>> http://wikimedia.org.au >>> >>> Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation >>> which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your >>> donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. >>> *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate <https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate>* >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Langcom mailing list >>> Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> mvh >> Jon Harald Søby >> > > > > -- > Gideon Digby > Vice President - Wikimedia Australia > M: 0434 986 852 > gnangarra(a)wikimedia.org.au > http://wikimedia.org.au > > Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation > which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your > donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. > *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate <https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate>* > > > > _______________________________________________ > Langcom mailing list > Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom > >

Kaya *disclaimer: *In saying the below I believe nys.wikipedia.org is ready, and very capable to stand alone, but I am also thinking about options based on Gerards suggestions and the potential for additional knowledge growth for communities beyond the Noongar language; what if it was nys.abridged.wikipedia It could be; *At this Wikipedia we work to write an encyclopaedia in Noongar language. We use Noongar language where ever possible and english when necessary. This Wikipedia reflects the challenges of working with primarily an oral language and the importance of sharing the cultural knowledge of the Noongar people. The broader less noongar specific knowledge topics are best written about on en.wikipedia.org <http://en.wikipedia.org>.* This would create a model for other language communities to follow from the incubator, yet they would still be a "Wikipedia" which itself is an important aspect. We could create a path way that over time could enable progression and drop the '' .abridged '' if the community wished to do so in the future. On 20 December 2017 at 18:07, Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Hoi, > We have a situation where it makes sense to provide a platform for the > Noongar language and culture. As you will read in the thread, > Wikipedia is not the platform for this because of the hostility against > subjects that lack "sources". The Noongar language is largely oral so much > of the content will be in English.. > > So the question for you and the Wikimedia board is: can we provide > room for them probably under a different platform name? > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 19 December 2017 at 10:26, Gnangarra &lt;gnangarra(a)wikimedia.org.au&gt; > wrote: > >> Kaya >> >> I did raise my concerns about the use of english when in Berlin and >> was told that it was ok, I'll focus on getting more of it translated though >> I hope this doesnt hold the project. >> >> One of our key issues is that Noongar is an oral language and written >> form is the result of european records, those records have created a >> situation where the written language is different dependent on the language >> the person spoke. We people like Salvado a Spanish Benedictine monk who's >> spelling used a mixture of spanish and latin depending on the sounds. Then >> there are various English, Welsh and Celtic settlers along with dutch, >> french, and german explorers all of whom recorded it in their own >> orthographies... One top of the region in which the language was spoken is >> larger than UK and like the UK areas had their own unique dialects despite >> speaking the same language. The beauty of this that some words can have >> more than 25 different spellings. >> >> The Noongar community came together in the early 1990's to establish >> a more consistent use of spellings to enable the language to be taught in >> schools, currently there are about 50 schools across the WA teaching >> Noongar. The simple act of translating the 762 most important messages >> has been a complex task of consultations with many groups, spread across >> the regions. When it came to writing content we encouraged two things one >> was localised spelling as we do for english and recording the >> knowledge(Katitjin). Knowing all of this background and having >> experienced many a waagnkininy about language over the last 4 years ( all >> early work was hosted by WMAU) the decision was taken for inclusiveness >> to allow english while the community is being built as we dont want to be >> seen a preferencing any specific one of the 15-20 different regional groups. >> >> Because of the survival of Noongar and continual use as a language >> despite laws, aided by it's adoption in to South West Australian english >> its probably one of the most complex living languages Wikimedia Movement >> will ever see. >> >> The value and future benefits to the movement of allowing the move >> now far exceeds the cost in using a few words of english in its initial >> phase. As always members are welcome to come to WA to experience >> firsthand a living language and culture that has been in continual use for >> 50,000+ years. >> >> Boodar >> Gnangarra >> >> >> >> On 18 December 2017 at 21:43, Jon Harald Søby &lt;jhsoby(a)gmail.com&gt; >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Gnangarra, >>> >>> I'm quite confused, because practically all the samples I looked at >>> from https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wp/nys are >>> articles *in English*, not in Nyungar. A new language edition of >>> Wikipedia needs to be *in that language*, not content in another >>> language (in this case English) *about* that language and its >>> culture, etc. The content as it presently stands should either be >>> incorporated into the English Wikipedia (although with their stringent >>> notability criteria I'm afraid a lot, if not most it, would be deleted) or >>> into a separate wiki. >>> >>> Is there something I'm missing? >>> >>> 2017-12-16 4:05 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra &lt;gnangarra(a)wikimedia.org.au&gt;au>: >>> >>>> Kaya Folks >>>> >>>> We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and continue >>>> to expand the translations and the article content. As I see it we are >>>> ready to go, >>>> >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/W >>>> ikipedia_Nyungar >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gideon Digby >>>> Vice President - Wikimedia Australia >>>> M: 0434 986 852 >>>> gnangarra(a)wikimedia.org.au >>>> http://wikimedia.org.au >>>> >>>> Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation >>>> which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your >>>> donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. >>>> *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate <https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate>* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Langcom mailing list >>>> Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mvh >>> Jon Harald Søby >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gideon Digby >> Vice President - Wikimedia Australia >> M: 0434 986 852 >> gnangarra(a)wikimedia.org.au >> http://wikimedia.org.au >> >> Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation >> which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your >> donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. >> *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate <https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate>* >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Langcom mailing list >> Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom >> >> > -- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra(a)wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate <https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate>*

How about, once there is enough content *in* Nyungar, it is created like a normal Wikipedia, but with a separate namespace for the stuff that is currently in English? 2017-12-20 13:19 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen &lt;gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com&gt;om>: > Hoi, > Including abridged has two issues.. It is English and it is not a > Wikipedia. So there must be another name for the project. The notion of > removing the abridged is not applicable. When there is sufficient traction > to have a Wikipedia in the specific language, it will be a Wikipedia and it > will be the specific language only. > > I take this to James exactly because we need a solution that scales > and is NOT language depended. > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 20 December 2017 at 12:22, Gnangarra &lt;gnangarra(a)wikimedia.org.au&gt; > wrote: > >> Kaya >> >> *disclaimer: *In saying the below I believe nys.wikipedia.org is >> ready, and very capable to stand alone, but I am also thinking about >> options based on Gerards suggestions and the potential for additional >> knowledge growth for communities beyond the Noongar language; >> >> what if it was nys.abridged.wikipedia >> >> It could be; >> >> *At this Wikipedia we work to write an encyclopaedia in Noongar >> language. We use Noongar language where ever possible and english when >> necessary. This Wikipedia reflects the challenges of working with primarily >> an oral language and the importance of sharing the cultural knowledge of >> the Noongar people. The broader less noongar specific knowledge topics are >> best written about on en.wikipedia.org <http://en.wikipedia.org>.* >> >> >> >> This would create a model for other language communities to follow >> from the incubator, yet they would still be a "Wikipedia" which itself is >> an important aspect. We could create a path way that over time could >> enable progression and drop the '' .abridged '' if the community wished to >> do so in the future. >> >> >> >> On 20 December 2017 at 18:07, Gerard Meijssen < >> gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >> >>> Hoi, >>> We have a situation where it makes sense to provide a platform for >>> the Noongar language and culture. As you will read in the thread, >>> Wikipedia is not the platform for this because of the hostility against >>> subjects that lack "sources". The Noongar language is largely oral so much >>> of the content will be in English.. >>> >>> So the question for you and the Wikimedia board is: can we provide >>> room for them probably under a different platform name? >>> Thanks, >>> GerardM >>> >>> On 19 December 2017 at 10:26, Gnangarra &lt;gnangarra(a)wikimedia.org.au&gt; >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Kaya >>>> >>>> I did raise my concerns about the use of english when in Berlin and >>>> was told that it was ok, I'll focus on getting more of it translated though >>>> I hope this doesnt hold the project. >>>> >>>> One of our key issues is that Noongar is an oral language and >>>> written form is the result of european records, those records have created >>>> a situation where the written language is different dependent on the >>>> language the person spoke. We people like Salvado a Spanish Benedictine >>>> monk who's spelling used a mixture of spanish and latin depending on the >>>> sounds. Then there are various English, Welsh and Celtic settlers along >>>> with dutch, french, and german explorers all of whom recorded it in their >>>> own orthographies... One top of the region in which the language was >>>> spoken is larger than UK and like the UK areas had their own unique >>>> dialects despite speaking the same language. The beauty of this that some >>>> words can have more than 25 different spellings. >>>> >>>> The Noongar community came together in the early 1990's to >>>> establish a more consistent use of spellings to enable the language to be >>>> taught in schools, currently there are about 50 schools across the WA >>>> teaching Noongar. The simple act of translating the 762 most important >>>> messages has been a complex task of consultations with many groups, spread >>>> across the regions. When it came to writing content we encouraged two >>>> things one was localised spelling as we do for english and recording the >>>> knowledge(Katitjin). Knowing all of this background and having >>>> experienced many a waagnkininy about language over the last 4 years ( all >>>> early work was hosted by WMAU) the decision was taken for inclusiveness >>>> to allow english while the community is being built as we dont want to be >>>> seen a preferencing any specific one of the 15-20 different regional groups. >>>> >>>> Because of the survival of Noongar and continual use as a language >>>> despite laws, aided by it's adoption in to South West Australian english >>>> its probably one of the most complex living languages Wikimedia Movement >>>> will ever see. >>>> >>>> The value and future benefits to the movement of allowing the move >>>> now far exceeds the cost in using a few words of english in its initial >>>> phase. As always members are welcome to come to WA to experience >>>> firsthand a living language and culture that has been in continual use for >>>> 50,000+ years. >>>> >>>> Boodar >>>> Gnangarra >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 18 December 2017 at 21:43, Jon Harald Søby &lt;jhsoby(a)gmail.com&gt; >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Gnangarra, >>>>> >>>>> I'm quite confused, because practically all the samples I looked >>>>> at from https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wp/nys are >>>>> articles *in English*, not in Nyungar. A new language edition of >>>>> Wikipedia needs to be *in that language*, not content in another >>>>> language (in this case English) *about* that language and its >>>>> culture, etc. The content as it presently stands should either be >>>>> incorporated into the English Wikipedia (although with their stringent >>>>> notability criteria I'm afraid a lot, if not most it, would be deleted) or >>>>> into a separate wiki. >>>>> >>>>> Is there something I'm missing? >>>>> >>>>> 2017-12-16 4:05 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra &lt;gnangarra(a)wikimedia.org.au&gt;au>: >>>>> >>>>>> Kaya Folks >>>>>> >>>>>> We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and >>>>>> continue to expand the translations and the article content. As I see it >>>>>> we are ready to go, >>>>>> >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/W >>>>>> ikipedia_Nyungar >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Gideon Digby >>>>>> Vice President - Wikimedia Australia >>>>>> M: 0434 986 852 >>>>>> gnangarra(a)wikimedia.org.au >>>>>> http://wikimedia.org.au >>>>>> >>>>>> Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable >>>>>> organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in >>>>>> Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. >>>>>> *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate <https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate>* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Langcom mailing list >>>>>> Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> mvh >>>>> Jon Harald Søby >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gideon Digby >>>> Vice President - Wikimedia Australia >>>> M: 0434 986 852 >>>> gnangarra(a)wikimedia.org.au >>>> http://wikimedia.org.au >>>> >>>> Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation >>>> which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your >>>> donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. >>>> *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate <https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate>* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Langcom mailing list >>>> Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Gideon Digby >> Vice President - Wikimedia Australia >> M: 0434 986 852 >> gnangarra(a)wikimedia.org.au >> http://wikimedia.org.au >> >> Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation >> which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your >> donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. >> *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate <https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate>* >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Langcom mailing list > Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom > > -- mvh Jon Harald Søby