Kaya Folks
We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and continue to expand the translations and the article content. As I see it we are ready to go,
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Nyungar
Hi Gnangarra,
I'm quite confused, because practically all the samples I looked at from https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wp/nys are articles *in English*, not in Nyungar. A new language edition of Wikipedia needs to be *in that language*, not content in another language (in this case English) *about* that language and its culture, etc. The content as it presently stands should either be incorporated into the English Wikipedia (although with their stringent notability criteria I'm afraid a lot, if not most it, would be deleted) or into a separate wiki.
Is there something I'm missing?
2017-12-16 4:05 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au:
Kaya Folks
We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and continue to expand the translations and the article content. As I see it we are ready to go,
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_ languages/Wikipedia_Nyungar
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Kaya
I did raise my concerns about the use of english when in Berlin and was told that it was ok, I'll focus on getting more of it translated though I hope this doesnt hold the project.
One of our key issues is that Noongar is an oral language and written form is the result of european records, those records have created a situation where the written language is different dependent on the language the person spoke. We people like Salvado a Spanish Benedictine monk who's spelling used a mixture of spanish and latin depending on the sounds. Then there are various English, Welsh and Celtic settlers along with dutch, french, and german explorers all of whom recorded it in their own orthographies... One top of the region in which the language was spoken is larger than UK and like the UK areas had their own unique dialects despite speaking the same language. The beauty of this that some words can have more than 25 different spellings.
The Noongar community came together in the early 1990's to establish a more consistent use of spellings to enable the language to be taught in schools, currently there are about 50 schools across the WA teaching Noongar. The simple act of translating the 762 most important messages has been a complex task of consultations with many groups, spread across the regions. When it came to writing content we encouraged two things one was localised spelling as we do for english and recording the knowledge(Katitjin). Knowing all of this background and having experienced many a waagnkininy about language over the last 4 years ( all early work was hosted by WMAU) the decision was taken for inclusiveness to allow english while the community is being built as we dont want to be seen a preferencing any specific one of the 15-20 different regional groups.
Because of the survival of Noongar and continual use as a language despite laws, aided by it's adoption in to South West Australian english its probably one of the most complex living languages Wikimedia Movement will ever see.
The value and future benefits to the movement of allowing the move now far exceeds the cost in using a few words of english in its initial phase. As always members are welcome to come to WA to experience firsthand a living language and culture that has been in continual use for 50,000+ years.
Boodar Gnangarra
On 18 December 2017 at 21:43, Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Gnangarra,
I'm quite confused, because practically all the samples I looked at from https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wp/nys are articles *in English*, not in Nyungar. A new language edition of Wikipedia needs to be *in that language*, not content in another language (in this case English) *about* that language and its culture, etc. The content as it presently stands should either be incorporated into the English Wikipedia (although with their stringent notability criteria I'm afraid a lot, if not most it, would be deleted) or into a separate wiki.
Is there something I'm missing?
2017-12-16 4:05 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au:
Kaya Folks
We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and continue to expand the translations and the article content. As I see it we are ready to go,
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/ Wikipedia_Nyungar
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby
Hoi, We have a situation where it makes sense to provide a platform for the Noongar language and culture. As you will read in the thread, Wikipedia is not the platform for this because of the hostility against subjects that lack "sources". The Noongar language is largely oral so much of the content will be in English..
So the question for you and the Wikimedia board is: can we provide room for them probably under a different platform name? Thanks, GerardM
On 19 December 2017 at 10:26, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
Kaya
I did raise my concerns about the use of english when in Berlin and was told that it was ok, I'll focus on getting more of it translated though I hope this doesnt hold the project.
One of our key issues is that Noongar is an oral language and written form is the result of european records, those records have created a situation where the written language is different dependent on the language the person spoke. We people like Salvado a Spanish Benedictine monk who's spelling used a mixture of spanish and latin depending on the sounds. Then there are various English, Welsh and Celtic settlers along with dutch, french, and german explorers all of whom recorded it in their own orthographies... One top of the region in which the language was spoken is larger than UK and like the UK areas had their own unique dialects despite speaking the same language. The beauty of this that some words can have more than 25 different spellings.
The Noongar community came together in the early 1990's to establish a more consistent use of spellings to enable the language to be taught in schools, currently there are about 50 schools across the WA teaching Noongar. The simple act of translating the 762 most important messages has been a complex task of consultations with many groups, spread across the regions. When it came to writing content we encouraged two things one was localised spelling as we do for english and recording the knowledge(Katitjin). Knowing all of this background and having experienced many a waagnkininy about language over the last 4 years ( all early work was hosted by WMAU) the decision was taken for inclusiveness to allow english while the community is being built as we dont want to be seen a preferencing any specific one of the 15-20 different regional groups.
Because of the survival of Noongar and continual use as a language despite laws, aided by it's adoption in to South West Australian english its probably one of the most complex living languages Wikimedia Movement will ever see.
The value and future benefits to the movement of allowing the move now far exceeds the cost in using a few words of english in its initial phase. As always members are welcome to come to WA to experience firsthand a living language and culture that has been in continual use for 50,000+ years.
Boodar Gnangarra
On 18 December 2017 at 21:43, Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Gnangarra,
I'm quite confused, because practically all the samples I looked at from https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wp/nys are articles *in English*, not in Nyungar. A new language edition of Wikipedia needs to be *in that language*, not content in another language (in this case English) *about* that language and its culture, etc. The content as it presently stands should either be incorporated into the English Wikipedia (although with their stringent notability criteria I'm afraid a lot, if not most it, would be deleted) or into a separate wiki.
Is there something I'm missing?
2017-12-16 4:05 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au:
Kaya Folks
We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and continue to expand the translations and the article content. As I see it we are ready to go,
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/W ikipedia_Nyungar
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Kaya
*disclaimer: *In saying the below I believe nys.wikipedia.org is ready, and very capable to stand alone, but I am also thinking about options based on Gerards suggestions and the potential for additional knowledge growth for communities beyond the Noongar language;
what if it was nys.abridged.wikipedia
It could be;
*At this Wikipedia we work to write an encyclopaedia in Noongar language. We use Noongar language where ever possible and english when necessary. This Wikipedia reflects the challenges of working with primarily an oral language and the importance of sharing the cultural knowledge of the Noongar people. The broader less noongar specific knowledge topics are best written about on en.wikipedia.org http://en.wikipedia.org.*
This would create a model for other language communities to follow from the incubator, yet they would still be a "Wikipedia" which itself is an important aspect. We could create a path way that over time could enable progression and drop the '' .abridged '' if the community wished to do so in the future.
On 20 December 2017 at 18:07, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, We have a situation where it makes sense to provide a platform for the Noongar language and culture. As you will read in the thread, Wikipedia is not the platform for this because of the hostility against subjects that lack "sources". The Noongar language is largely oral so much of the content will be in English..
So the question for you and the Wikimedia board is: can we provide room for them probably under a different platform name? Thanks, GerardM
On 19 December 2017 at 10:26, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
Kaya
I did raise my concerns about the use of english when in Berlin and was told that it was ok, I'll focus on getting more of it translated though I hope this doesnt hold the project.
One of our key issues is that Noongar is an oral language and written form is the result of european records, those records have created a situation where the written language is different dependent on the language the person spoke. We people like Salvado a Spanish Benedictine monk who's spelling used a mixture of spanish and latin depending on the sounds. Then there are various English, Welsh and Celtic settlers along with dutch, french, and german explorers all of whom recorded it in their own orthographies... One top of the region in which the language was spoken is larger than UK and like the UK areas had their own unique dialects despite speaking the same language. The beauty of this that some words can have more than 25 different spellings.
The Noongar community came together in the early 1990's to establish a more consistent use of spellings to enable the language to be taught in schools, currently there are about 50 schools across the WA teaching Noongar. The simple act of translating the 762 most important messages has been a complex task of consultations with many groups, spread across the regions. When it came to writing content we encouraged two things one was localised spelling as we do for english and recording the knowledge(Katitjin). Knowing all of this background and having experienced many a waagnkininy about language over the last 4 years ( all early work was hosted by WMAU) the decision was taken for inclusiveness to allow english while the community is being built as we dont want to be seen a preferencing any specific one of the 15-20 different regional groups.
Because of the survival of Noongar and continual use as a language despite laws, aided by it's adoption in to South West Australian english its probably one of the most complex living languages Wikimedia Movement will ever see.
The value and future benefits to the movement of allowing the move now far exceeds the cost in using a few words of english in its initial phase. As always members are welcome to come to WA to experience firsthand a living language and culture that has been in continual use for 50,000+ years.
Boodar Gnangarra
On 18 December 2017 at 21:43, Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Gnangarra,
I'm quite confused, because practically all the samples I looked at from https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wp/nys are articles *in English*, not in Nyungar. A new language edition of Wikipedia needs to be *in that language*, not content in another language (in this case English) *about* that language and its culture, etc. The content as it presently stands should either be incorporated into the English Wikipedia (although with their stringent notability criteria I'm afraid a lot, if not most it, would be deleted) or into a separate wiki.
Is there something I'm missing?
2017-12-16 4:05 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au:
Kaya Folks
We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and continue to expand the translations and the article content. As I see it we are ready to go,
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/W ikipedia_Nyungar
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Hoi, Including abridged has two issues.. It is English and it is not a Wikipedia. So there must be another name for the project. The notion of removing the abridged is not applicable. When there is sufficient traction to have a Wikipedia in the specific language, it will be a Wikipedia and it will be the specific language only.
I take this to James exactly because we need a solution that scales and is NOT language depended. Thanks, GerardM
On 20 December 2017 at 12:22, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
Kaya
*disclaimer: *In saying the below I believe nys.wikipedia.org is ready, and very capable to stand alone, but I am also thinking about options based on Gerards suggestions and the potential for additional knowledge growth for communities beyond the Noongar language;
what if it was nys.abridged.wikipedia
It could be;
*At this Wikipedia we work to write an encyclopaedia in Noongar language. We use Noongar language where ever possible and english when necessary. This Wikipedia reflects the challenges of working with primarily an oral language and the importance of sharing the cultural knowledge of the Noongar people. The broader less noongar specific knowledge topics are best written about on en.wikipedia.org http://en.wikipedia.org.*
This would create a model for other language communities to follow from the incubator, yet they would still be a "Wikipedia" which itself is an important aspect. We could create a path way that over time could enable progression and drop the '' .abridged '' if the community wished to do so in the future.
On 20 December 2017 at 18:07, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, We have a situation where it makes sense to provide a platform for the Noongar language and culture. As you will read in the thread, Wikipedia is not the platform for this because of the hostility against subjects that lack "sources". The Noongar language is largely oral so much of the content will be in English..
So the question for you and the Wikimedia board is: can we provide room for them probably under a different platform name? Thanks, GerardM
On 19 December 2017 at 10:26, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
Kaya
I did raise my concerns about the use of english when in Berlin and was told that it was ok, I'll focus on getting more of it translated though I hope this doesnt hold the project.
One of our key issues is that Noongar is an oral language and written form is the result of european records, those records have created a situation where the written language is different dependent on the language the person spoke. We people like Salvado a Spanish Benedictine monk who's spelling used a mixture of spanish and latin depending on the sounds. Then there are various English, Welsh and Celtic settlers along with dutch, french, and german explorers all of whom recorded it in their own orthographies... One top of the region in which the language was spoken is larger than UK and like the UK areas had their own unique dialects despite speaking the same language. The beauty of this that some words can have more than 25 different spellings.
The Noongar community came together in the early 1990's to establish a more consistent use of spellings to enable the language to be taught in schools, currently there are about 50 schools across the WA teaching Noongar. The simple act of translating the 762 most important messages has been a complex task of consultations with many groups, spread across the regions. When it came to writing content we encouraged two things one was localised spelling as we do for english and recording the knowledge(Katitjin). Knowing all of this background and having experienced many a waagnkininy about language over the last 4 years ( all early work was hosted by WMAU) the decision was taken for inclusiveness to allow english while the community is being built as we dont want to be seen a preferencing any specific one of the 15-20 different regional groups.
Because of the survival of Noongar and continual use as a language despite laws, aided by it's adoption in to South West Australian english its probably one of the most complex living languages Wikimedia Movement will ever see.
The value and future benefits to the movement of allowing the move now far exceeds the cost in using a few words of english in its initial phase. As always members are welcome to come to WA to experience firsthand a living language and culture that has been in continual use for 50,000+ years.
Boodar Gnangarra
On 18 December 2017 at 21:43, Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Gnangarra,
I'm quite confused, because practically all the samples I looked at from https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wp/nys are articles *in English*, not in Nyungar. A new language edition of Wikipedia needs to be *in that language*, not content in another language (in this case English) *about* that language and its culture, etc. The content as it presently stands should either be incorporated into the English Wikipedia (although with their stringent notability criteria I'm afraid a lot, if not most it, would be deleted) or into a separate wiki.
Is there something I'm missing?
2017-12-16 4:05 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au:
Kaya Folks
We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and continue to expand the translations and the article content. As I see it we are ready to go,
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/W ikipedia_Nyungar
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
How about, once there is enough content *in* Nyungar, it is created like a normal Wikipedia, but with a separate namespace for the stuff that is currently in English?
2017-12-20 13:19 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Including abridged has two issues.. It is English and it is not a Wikipedia. So there must be another name for the project. The notion of removing the abridged is not applicable. When there is sufficient traction to have a Wikipedia in the specific language, it will be a Wikipedia and it will be the specific language only.
I take this to James exactly because we need a solution that scales and is NOT language depended. Thanks, GerardM
On 20 December 2017 at 12:22, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
Kaya
*disclaimer: *In saying the below I believe nys.wikipedia.org is ready, and very capable to stand alone, but I am also thinking about options based on Gerards suggestions and the potential for additional knowledge growth for communities beyond the Noongar language;
what if it was nys.abridged.wikipedia
It could be;
*At this Wikipedia we work to write an encyclopaedia in Noongar language. We use Noongar language where ever possible and english when necessary. This Wikipedia reflects the challenges of working with primarily an oral language and the importance of sharing the cultural knowledge of the Noongar people. The broader less noongar specific knowledge topics are best written about on en.wikipedia.org http://en.wikipedia.org.*
This would create a model for other language communities to follow from the incubator, yet they would still be a "Wikipedia" which itself is an important aspect. We could create a path way that over time could enable progression and drop the '' .abridged '' if the community wished to do so in the future.
On 20 December 2017 at 18:07, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, We have a situation where it makes sense to provide a platform for the Noongar language and culture. As you will read in the thread, Wikipedia is not the platform for this because of the hostility against subjects that lack "sources". The Noongar language is largely oral so much of the content will be in English..
So the question for you and the Wikimedia board is: can we provide room for them probably under a different platform name? Thanks, GerardM
On 19 December 2017 at 10:26, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
Kaya
I did raise my concerns about the use of english when in Berlin and was told that it was ok, I'll focus on getting more of it translated though I hope this doesnt hold the project.
One of our key issues is that Noongar is an oral language and written form is the result of european records, those records have created a situation where the written language is different dependent on the language the person spoke. We people like Salvado a Spanish Benedictine monk who's spelling used a mixture of spanish and latin depending on the sounds. Then there are various English, Welsh and Celtic settlers along with dutch, french, and german explorers all of whom recorded it in their own orthographies... One top of the region in which the language was spoken is larger than UK and like the UK areas had their own unique dialects despite speaking the same language. The beauty of this that some words can have more than 25 different spellings.
The Noongar community came together in the early 1990's to establish a more consistent use of spellings to enable the language to be taught in schools, currently there are about 50 schools across the WA teaching Noongar. The simple act of translating the 762 most important messages has been a complex task of consultations with many groups, spread across the regions. When it came to writing content we encouraged two things one was localised spelling as we do for english and recording the knowledge(Katitjin). Knowing all of this background and having experienced many a waagnkininy about language over the last 4 years ( all early work was hosted by WMAU) the decision was taken for inclusiveness to allow english while the community is being built as we dont want to be seen a preferencing any specific one of the 15-20 different regional groups.
Because of the survival of Noongar and continual use as a language despite laws, aided by it's adoption in to South West Australian english its probably one of the most complex living languages Wikimedia Movement will ever see.
The value and future benefits to the movement of allowing the move now far exceeds the cost in using a few words of english in its initial phase. As always members are welcome to come to WA to experience firsthand a living language and culture that has been in continual use for 50,000+ years.
Boodar Gnangarra
On 18 December 2017 at 21:43, Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Gnangarra,
I'm quite confused, because practically all the samples I looked at from https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wp/nys are articles *in English*, not in Nyungar. A new language edition of Wikipedia needs to be *in that language*, not content in another language (in this case English) *about* that language and its culture, etc. The content as it presently stands should either be incorporated into the English Wikipedia (although with their stringent notability criteria I'm afraid a lot, if not most it, would be deleted) or into a separate wiki.
Is there something I'm missing?
2017-12-16 4:05 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au:
Kaya Folks
We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and continue to expand the translations and the article content. As I see it we are ready to go,
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/W ikipedia_Nyungar
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Hoi, That does not fit what is understood to be a Wikipedia. What are your arguments to call this a Wikipedia? It does not work in any way linking to Wikidata. So no. I do not think so. With a separate project we can indeed have multiple namespaces and link them properly based on the language associated with a namespace. Thanks, GerardM
On 20 December 2017 at 13:22, Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
How about, once there is enough content *in* Nyungar, it is created like a normal Wikipedia, but with a separate namespace for the stuff that is currently in English?
2017-12-20 13:19 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Including abridged has two issues.. It is English and it is not a Wikipedia. So there must be another name for the project. The notion of removing the abridged is not applicable. When there is sufficient traction to have a Wikipedia in the specific language, it will be a Wikipedia and it will be the specific language only.
I take this to James exactly because we need a solution that scales and is NOT language depended. Thanks, GerardM
On 20 December 2017 at 12:22, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
Kaya
*disclaimer: *In saying the below I believe nys.wikipedia.org is ready, and very capable to stand alone, but I am also thinking about options based on Gerards suggestions and the potential for additional knowledge growth for communities beyond the Noongar language;
what if it was nys.abridged.wikipedia
It could be;
*At this Wikipedia we work to write an encyclopaedia in Noongar language. We use Noongar language where ever possible and english when necessary. This Wikipedia reflects the challenges of working with primarily an oral language and the importance of sharing the cultural knowledge of the Noongar people. The broader less noongar specific knowledge topics are best written about on en.wikipedia.org http://en.wikipedia.org.*
This would create a model for other language communities to follow from the incubator, yet they would still be a "Wikipedia" which itself is an important aspect. We could create a path way that over time could enable progression and drop the '' .abridged '' if the community wished to do so in the future.
On 20 December 2017 at 18:07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, We have a situation where it makes sense to provide a platform for the Noongar language and culture. As you will read in the thread, Wikipedia is not the platform for this because of the hostility against subjects that lack "sources". The Noongar language is largely oral so much of the content will be in English..
So the question for you and the Wikimedia board is: can we provide room for them probably under a different platform name? Thanks, GerardM
On 19 December 2017 at 10:26, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
Kaya
I did raise my concerns about the use of english when in Berlin and was told that it was ok, I'll focus on getting more of it translated though I hope this doesnt hold the project.
One of our key issues is that Noongar is an oral language and written form is the result of european records, those records have created a situation where the written language is different dependent on the language the person spoke. We people like Salvado a Spanish Benedictine monk who's spelling used a mixture of spanish and latin depending on the sounds. Then there are various English, Welsh and Celtic settlers along with dutch, french, and german explorers all of whom recorded it in their own orthographies... One top of the region in which the language was spoken is larger than UK and like the UK areas had their own unique dialects despite speaking the same language. The beauty of this that some words can have more than 25 different spellings.
The Noongar community came together in the early 1990's to establish a more consistent use of spellings to enable the language to be taught in schools, currently there are about 50 schools across the WA teaching Noongar. The simple act of translating the 762 most important messages has been a complex task of consultations with many groups, spread across the regions. When it came to writing content we encouraged two things one was localised spelling as we do for english and recording the knowledge(Katitjin). Knowing all of this background and having experienced many a waagnkininy about language over the last 4 years ( all early work was hosted by WMAU) the decision was taken for inclusiveness to allow english while the community is being built as we dont want to be seen a preferencing any specific one of the 15-20 different regional groups.
Because of the survival of Noongar and continual use as a language despite laws, aided by it's adoption in to South West Australian english its probably one of the most complex living languages Wikimedia Movement will ever see.
The value and future benefits to the movement of allowing the move now far exceeds the cost in using a few words of english in its initial phase. As always members are welcome to come to WA to experience firsthand a living language and culture that has been in continual use for 50,000+ years.
Boodar Gnangarra
On 18 December 2017 at 21:43, Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Gnangarra,
I'm quite confused, because practically all the samples I looked at from https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wp/nys are articles *in English*, not in Nyungar. A new language edition of Wikipedia needs to be *in that language*, not content in another language (in this case English) *about* that language and its culture, etc. The content as it presently stands should either be incorporated into the English Wikipedia (although with their stringent notability criteria I'm afraid a lot, if not most it, would be deleted) or into a separate wiki.
Is there something I'm missing?
2017-12-16 4:05 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au:
> Kaya Folks > > We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and continue > to expand the translations and the article content. As I see it we are > ready to go, > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/W > ikipedia_Nyungar > > -- > Gideon Digby > Vice President - Wikimedia Australia > M: 0434 986 852 > gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au > http://wikimedia.org.au > > Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation > which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your > donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. > *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate* > > > > _______________________________________________ > Langcom mailing list > Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom > >
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
I have started on the translations of articles(bibol) into noongar and started weeding out those which offer no content. Obviously as I go through the use of noongar increases I'll be cleaning up grammatical issues. Creating a namespace for english language articles is possible but please be mindful that Noongar speakers are bilingual and that where an english equivalent doesnt exist english is used.
On 20 December 2017 at 20:22, Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
How about, once there is enough content *in* Nyungar, it is created like a normal Wikipedia, but with a separate namespace for the stuff that is currently in English?
2017-12-20 13:19 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Including abridged has two issues.. It is English and it is not a Wikipedia. So there must be another name for the project. The notion of removing the abridged is not applicable. When there is sufficient traction to have a Wikipedia in the specific language, it will be a Wikipedia and it will be the specific language only.
I take this to James exactly because we need a solution that scales and is NOT language depended. Thanks, GerardM
On 20 December 2017 at 12:22, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
Kaya
*disclaimer: *In saying the below I believe nys.wikipedia.org is ready, and very capable to stand alone, but I am also thinking about options based on Gerards suggestions and the potential for additional knowledge growth for communities beyond the Noongar language;
what if it was nys.abridged.wikipedia
It could be;
*At this Wikipedia we work to write an encyclopaedia in Noongar language. We use Noongar language where ever possible and english when necessary. This Wikipedia reflects the challenges of working with primarily an oral language and the importance of sharing the cultural knowledge of the Noongar people. The broader less noongar specific knowledge topics are best written about on en.wikipedia.org http://en.wikipedia.org.*
This would create a model for other language communities to follow from the incubator, yet they would still be a "Wikipedia" which itself is an important aspect. We could create a path way that over time could enable progression and drop the '' .abridged '' if the community wished to do so in the future.
On 20 December 2017 at 18:07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, We have a situation where it makes sense to provide a platform for the Noongar language and culture. As you will read in the thread, Wikipedia is not the platform for this because of the hostility against subjects that lack "sources". The Noongar language is largely oral so much of the content will be in English..
So the question for you and the Wikimedia board is: can we provide room for them probably under a different platform name? Thanks, GerardM
On 19 December 2017 at 10:26, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
Kaya
I did raise my concerns about the use of english when in Berlin and was told that it was ok, I'll focus on getting more of it translated though I hope this doesnt hold the project.
One of our key issues is that Noongar is an oral language and written form is the result of european records, those records have created a situation where the written language is different dependent on the language the person spoke. We people like Salvado a Spanish Benedictine monk who's spelling used a mixture of spanish and latin depending on the sounds. Then there are various English, Welsh and Celtic settlers along with dutch, french, and german explorers all of whom recorded it in their own orthographies... One top of the region in which the language was spoken is larger than UK and like the UK areas had their own unique dialects despite speaking the same language. The beauty of this that some words can have more than 25 different spellings.
The Noongar community came together in the early 1990's to establish a more consistent use of spellings to enable the language to be taught in schools, currently there are about 50 schools across the WA teaching Noongar. The simple act of translating the 762 most important messages has been a complex task of consultations with many groups, spread across the regions. When it came to writing content we encouraged two things one was localised spelling as we do for english and recording the knowledge(Katitjin). Knowing all of this background and having experienced many a waagnkininy about language over the last 4 years ( all early work was hosted by WMAU) the decision was taken for inclusiveness to allow english while the community is being built as we dont want to be seen a preferencing any specific one of the 15-20 different regional groups.
Because of the survival of Noongar and continual use as a language despite laws, aided by it's adoption in to South West Australian english its probably one of the most complex living languages Wikimedia Movement will ever see.
The value and future benefits to the movement of allowing the move now far exceeds the cost in using a few words of english in its initial phase. As always members are welcome to come to WA to experience firsthand a living language and culture that has been in continual use for 50,000+ years.
Boodar Gnangarra
On 18 December 2017 at 21:43, Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Gnangarra,
I'm quite confused, because practically all the samples I looked at from https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wp/nys are articles *in English*, not in Nyungar. A new language edition of Wikipedia needs to be *in that language*, not content in another language (in this case English) *about* that language and its culture, etc. The content as it presently stands should either be incorporated into the English Wikipedia (although with their stringent notability criteria I'm afraid a lot, if not most it, would be deleted) or into a separate wiki.
Is there something I'm missing?
2017-12-16 4:05 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au:
> Kaya Folks > > We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and continue > to expand the translations and the article content. As I see it we are > ready to go, > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/W > ikipedia_Nyungar > > -- > Gideon Digby > Vice President - Wikimedia Australia > M: 0434 986 852 > gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au > http://wikimedia.org.au > > Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation > which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your > donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. > *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate* > > > > _______________________________________________ > Langcom mailing list > Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom > >
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby
If you have an English namespace for it, I imagine you can do something like this in the main namespace:
*Unfortunately, we don't have an article about this in Noongar yet, but there is an English article available below. Please help translate it into Noongar.*
{{:Background:Article subject}}
*[[Category:Noongar p**eople]]*
*[[Category:1940 births]]*
*[[Category:2015 deaths]]*
Stuff in italics should be in Noongar, not English. The English-language article *in Noongar Wikipedia* is transcluded (preferrably via a template that puts a border around it to make it visually obvious that this content is separate, and with some links for editing, etc). This way you can have the content there in the main namespace, and there is something there for people to translate, and the article can be connected to Wikidata with ordinary interwiki links.
2017-12-27 9:03 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au:
I have started on the translations of articles(bibol) into noongar and started weeding out those which offer no content. Obviously as I go through the use of noongar increases I'll be cleaning up grammatical issues. Creating a namespace for english language articles is possible but please be mindful that Noongar speakers are bilingual and that where an english equivalent doesnt exist english is used.
On 20 December 2017 at 20:22, Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
How about, once there is enough content *in* Nyungar, it is created like a normal Wikipedia, but with a separate namespace for the stuff that is currently in English?
2017-12-20 13:19 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Including abridged has two issues.. It is English and it is not a Wikipedia. So there must be another name for the project. The notion of removing the abridged is not applicable. When there is sufficient traction to have a Wikipedia in the specific language, it will be a Wikipedia and it will be the specific language only.
I take this to James exactly because we need a solution that scales and is NOT language depended. Thanks, GerardM
On 20 December 2017 at 12:22, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
Kaya
*disclaimer: *In saying the below I believe nys.wikipedia.org is ready, and very capable to stand alone, but I am also thinking about options based on Gerards suggestions and the potential for additional knowledge growth for communities beyond the Noongar language;
what if it was nys.abridged.wikipedia
It could be;
*At this Wikipedia we work to write an encyclopaedia in Noongar language. We use Noongar language where ever possible and english when necessary. This Wikipedia reflects the challenges of working with primarily an oral language and the importance of sharing the cultural knowledge of the Noongar people. The broader less noongar specific knowledge topics are best written about on en.wikipedia.org http://en.wikipedia.org.*
This would create a model for other language communities to follow from the incubator, yet they would still be a "Wikipedia" which itself is an important aspect. We could create a path way that over time could enable progression and drop the '' .abridged '' if the community wished to do so in the future.
On 20 December 2017 at 18:07, Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hoi, We have a situation where it makes sense to provide a platform for the Noongar language and culture. As you will read in the thread, Wikipedia is not the platform for this because of the hostility against subjects that lack "sources". The Noongar language is largely oral so much of the content will be in English..
So the question for you and the Wikimedia board is: can we provide room for them probably under a different platform name? Thanks, GerardM
On 19 December 2017 at 10:26, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
Kaya
I did raise my concerns about the use of english when in Berlin and was told that it was ok, I'll focus on getting more of it translated though I hope this doesnt hold the project.
One of our key issues is that Noongar is an oral language and written form is the result of european records, those records have created a situation where the written language is different dependent on the language the person spoke. We people like Salvado a Spanish Benedictine monk who's spelling used a mixture of spanish and latin depending on the sounds. Then there are various English, Welsh and Celtic settlers along with dutch, french, and german explorers all of whom recorded it in their own orthographies... One top of the region in which the language was spoken is larger than UK and like the UK areas had their own unique dialects despite speaking the same language. The beauty of this that some words can have more than 25 different spellings.
The Noongar community came together in the early 1990's to establish a more consistent use of spellings to enable the language to be taught in schools, currently there are about 50 schools across the WA teaching Noongar. The simple act of translating the 762 most important messages has been a complex task of consultations with many groups, spread across the regions. When it came to writing content we encouraged two things one was localised spelling as we do for english and recording the knowledge(Katitjin). Knowing all of this background and having experienced many a waagnkininy about language over the last 4 years ( all early work was hosted by WMAU) the decision was taken for inclusiveness to allow english while the community is being built as we dont want to be seen a preferencing any specific one of the 15-20 different regional groups.
Because of the survival of Noongar and continual use as a language despite laws, aided by it's adoption in to South West Australian english its probably one of the most complex living languages Wikimedia Movement will ever see.
The value and future benefits to the movement of allowing the move now far exceeds the cost in using a few words of english in its initial phase. As always members are welcome to come to WA to experience firsthand a living language and culture that has been in continual use for 50,000+ years.
Boodar Gnangarra
On 18 December 2017 at 21:43, Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi Gnangarra, > > I'm quite confused, because practically all the samples I looked at > from https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wp/nys are > articles *in English*, not in Nyungar. A new language edition of > Wikipedia needs to be *in that language*, not content in another > language (in this case English) *about* that language and its > culture, etc. The content as it presently stands should either be > incorporated into the English Wikipedia (although with their stringent > notability criteria I'm afraid a lot, if not most it, would be deleted) or > into a separate wiki. > > Is there something I'm missing? > > 2017-12-16 4:05 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au: > >> Kaya Folks >> >> We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and continue >> to expand the translations and the article content. As I see it we are >> ready to go, >> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/W >> ikipedia_Nyungar >> >> -- >> Gideon Digby >> Vice President - Wikimedia Australia >> M: 0434 986 852 >> gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au >> http://wikimedia.org.au >> >> Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation >> which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your >> donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. >> *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate* >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Langcom mailing list >> Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom >> >> > > > -- > mvh > Jon Harald Søby >
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Where are we this, its 12 months since I was first contacted by committee members and told that this is ready to go I'll help get it through. In Berlin I spoke with the committee they were happy with the project and requested the translations the key terms to be done. We have been translating focusing on translating article content. we have exceeded the activity criteria.
Delaying getting to nys.wikipedia is holding back WMAU ability to further engage with over 300 Indigenous language as they are all watching and waiting to see what happens with one of the strongest continuous languages.
On 27 December 2017 at 19:43, Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
If you have an English namespace for it, I imagine you can do something like this in the main namespace:
*Unfortunately, we don't have an article about this in Noongar yet, but there is an English article available below. Please help translate it into Noongar.*
{{:Background:Article subject}}
*[[Category:Noongar p**eople]]*
*[[Category:1940 births]]*
*[[Category:2015 deaths]]*
Stuff in italics should be in Noongar, not English. The English-language article *in Noongar Wikipedia* is transcluded (preferrably via a template that puts a border around it to make it visually obvious that this content is separate, and with some links for editing, etc). This way you can have the content there in the main namespace, and there is something there for people to translate, and the article can be connected to Wikidata with ordinary interwiki links.
2017-12-27 9:03 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au:
I have started on the translations of articles(bibol) into noongar and started weeding out those which offer no content. Obviously as I go through the use of noongar increases I'll be cleaning up grammatical issues. Creating a namespace for english language articles is possible but please be mindful that Noongar speakers are bilingual and that where an english equivalent doesnt exist english is used.
On 20 December 2017 at 20:22, Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
How about, once there is enough content *in* Nyungar, it is created like a normal Wikipedia, but with a separate namespace for the stuff that is currently in English?
2017-12-20 13:19 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Including abridged has two issues.. It is English and it is not a Wikipedia. So there must be another name for the project. The notion of removing the abridged is not applicable. When there is sufficient traction to have a Wikipedia in the specific language, it will be a Wikipedia and it will be the specific language only.
I take this to James exactly because we need a solution that scales and is NOT language depended. Thanks, GerardM
On 20 December 2017 at 12:22, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
Kaya
*disclaimer: *In saying the below I believe nys.wikipedia.org is ready, and very capable to stand alone, but I am also thinking about options based on Gerards suggestions and the potential for additional knowledge growth for communities beyond the Noongar language;
what if it was nys.abridged.wikipedia
It could be;
*At this Wikipedia we work to write an encyclopaedia in Noongar language. We use Noongar language where ever possible and english when necessary. This Wikipedia reflects the challenges of working with primarily an oral language and the importance of sharing the cultural knowledge of the Noongar people. The broader less noongar specific knowledge topics are best written about on en.wikipedia.org http://en.wikipedia.org.*
This would create a model for other language communities to follow from the incubator, yet they would still be a "Wikipedia" which itself is an important aspect. We could create a path way that over time could enable progression and drop the '' .abridged '' if the community wished to do so in the future.
On 20 December 2017 at 18:07, Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hoi, We have a situation where it makes sense to provide a platform for the Noongar language and culture. As you will read in the thread, Wikipedia is not the platform for this because of the hostility against subjects that lack "sources". The Noongar language is largely oral so much of the content will be in English..
So the question for you and the Wikimedia board is: can we provide room for them probably under a different platform name? Thanks, GerardM
On 19 December 2017 at 10:26, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
> Kaya > > I did raise my concerns about the use of english when in Berlin and > was told that it was ok, I'll focus on getting more of it translated though > I hope this doesnt hold the project. > > One of our key issues is that Noongar is an oral language and > written form is the result of european records, those records have created > a situation where the written language is different dependent on the > language the person spoke. We people like Salvado a Spanish Benedictine > monk who's spelling used a mixture of spanish and latin depending on the > sounds. Then there are various English, Welsh and Celtic settlers along > with dutch, french, and german explorers all of whom recorded it in their > own orthographies... One top of the region in which the language was > spoken is larger than UK and like the UK areas had their own unique > dialects despite speaking the same language. The beauty of this that some > words can have more than 25 different spellings. > > The Noongar community came together in the early 1990's to establish > a more consistent use of spellings to enable the language to be taught in > schools, currently there are about 50 schools across the WA teaching > Noongar. The simple act of translating the 762 most important messages > has been a complex task of consultations with many groups, spread across > the regions. When it came to writing content we encouraged two things one > was localised spelling as we do for english and recording the > knowledge(Katitjin). Knowing all of this background and having > experienced many a waagnkininy about language over the last 4 years ( all > early work was hosted by WMAU) the decision was taken for inclusiveness > to allow english while the community is being built as we dont want to be > seen a preferencing any specific one of the 15-20 different regional groups. > > Because of the survival of Noongar and continual use as a language > despite laws, aided by it's adoption in to South West Australian english > its probably one of the most complex living languages Wikimedia Movement > will ever see. > > The value and future benefits to the movement of allowing the move > now far exceeds the cost in using a few words of english in its initial > phase. As always members are welcome to come to WA to experience > firsthand a living language and culture that has been in continual use for > 50,000+ years. > > Boodar > Gnangarra > > > > On 18 December 2017 at 21:43, Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com > wrote: > >> Hi Gnangarra, >> >> I'm quite confused, because practically all the samples I looked at >> from https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wp/nys are >> articles *in English*, not in Nyungar. A new language edition of >> Wikipedia needs to be *in that language*, not content in another >> language (in this case English) *about* that language and its >> culture, etc. The content as it presently stands should either be >> incorporated into the English Wikipedia (although with their stringent >> notability criteria I'm afraid a lot, if not most it, would be deleted) or >> into a separate wiki. >> >> Is there something I'm missing? >> >> 2017-12-16 4:05 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au: >> >>> Kaya Folks >>> >>> We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and continue >>> to expand the translations and the article content. As I see it we are >>> ready to go, >>> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/W >>> ikipedia_Nyungar >>> >>> -- >>> Gideon Digby >>> Vice President - Wikimedia Australia >>> M: 0434 986 852 >>> gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au >>> http://wikimedia.org.au >>> >>> Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation >>> which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your >>> donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. >>> *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate* >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Langcom mailing list >>> Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> mvh >> Jon Harald Søby >> > > > > -- > Gideon Digby > Vice President - Wikimedia Australia > M: 0434 986 852 > gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au > http://wikimedia.org.au > > Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation > which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your > donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. > *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate* > > > > _______________________________________________ > Langcom mailing list > Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom > >
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby
I see that the most-used messages are translated and the activity looks ok since 2017-10 < https://tools.wmflabs.org/meta/catanalysis/index.php?cat=0&title=Wp/nys&... (except this started month).
2018-02-07 8:08 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au:
Where are we this, its 12 months since I was first contacted by committee members and told that this is ready to go I'll help get it through. In Berlin I spoke with the committee they were happy with the project and requested the translations the key terms to be done. We have been translating focusing on translating article content. we have exceeded the activity criteria.
Delaying getting to nys.wikipedia is holding back WMAU ability to further engage with over 300 Indigenous language as they are all watching and waiting to see what happens with one of the strongest continuous languages.
On 27 December 2017 at 19:43, Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
If you have an English namespace for it, I imagine you can do something like this in the main namespace:
*Unfortunately, we don't have an article about this in Noongar yet, but there is an English article available below. Please help translate it into Noongar.*
{{:Background:Article subject}}
*[[Category:Noongar p**eople]]*
*[[Category:1940 births]]*
*[[Category:2015 deaths]]*
Stuff in italics should be in Noongar, not English. The English-language article *in Noongar Wikipedia* is transcluded (preferrably via a template that puts a border around it to make it visually obvious that this content is separate, and with some links for editing, etc). This way you can have the content there in the main namespace, and there is something there for people to translate, and the article can be connected to Wikidata with ordinary interwiki links.
2017-12-27 9:03 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au:
I have started on the translations of articles(bibol) into noongar and started weeding out those which offer no content. Obviously as I go through the use of noongar increases I'll be cleaning up grammatical issues. Creating a namespace for english language articles is possible but please be mindful that Noongar speakers are bilingual and that where an english equivalent doesnt exist english is used.
On 20 December 2017 at 20:22, Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote:
How about, once there is enough content *in* Nyungar, it is created like a normal Wikipedia, but with a separate namespace for the stuff that is currently in English?
2017-12-20 13:19 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Including abridged has two issues.. It is English and it is not a Wikipedia. So there must be another name for the project. The notion of removing the abridged is not applicable. When there is sufficient traction to have a Wikipedia in the specific language, it will be a Wikipedia and it will be the specific language only.
I take this to James exactly because we need a solution that scales and is NOT language depended. Thanks, GerardM
On 20 December 2017 at 12:22, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
Kaya
*disclaimer: *In saying the below I believe nys.wikipedia.org is ready, and very capable to stand alone, but I am also thinking about options based on Gerards suggestions and the potential for additional knowledge growth for communities beyond the Noongar language;
what if it was nys.abridged.wikipedia
It could be;
*At this Wikipedia we work to write an encyclopaedia in Noongar language. We use Noongar language where ever possible and english when necessary. This Wikipedia reflects the challenges of working with primarily an oral language and the importance of sharing the cultural knowledge of the Noongar people. The broader less noongar specific knowledge topics are best written about on en.wikipedia.org http://en.wikipedia.org.*
This would create a model for other language communities to follow from the incubator, yet they would still be a "Wikipedia" which itself is an important aspect. We could create a path way that over time could enable progression and drop the '' .abridged '' if the community wished to do so in the future.
On 20 December 2017 at 18:07, Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi, > We have a situation where it makes sense to provide a platform for > the Noongar language and culture. As you will read in the thread, > Wikipedia is not the platform for this because of the hostility against > subjects that lack "sources". The Noongar language is largely oral so much > of the content will be in English.. > > So the question for you and the Wikimedia board is: can we provide > room for them probably under a different platform name? > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 19 December 2017 at 10:26, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au > wrote: > >> Kaya >> >> I did raise my concerns about the use of english when in Berlin and >> was told that it was ok, I'll focus on getting more of it translated though >> I hope this doesnt hold the project. >> >> One of our key issues is that Noongar is an oral language and >> written form is the result of european records, those records have created >> a situation where the written language is different dependent on the >> language the person spoke. We people like Salvado a Spanish Benedictine >> monk who's spelling used a mixture of spanish and latin depending on the >> sounds. Then there are various English, Welsh and Celtic settlers along >> with dutch, french, and german explorers all of whom recorded it in their >> own orthographies... One top of the region in which the language was >> spoken is larger than UK and like the UK areas had their own unique >> dialects despite speaking the same language. The beauty of this that some >> words can have more than 25 different spellings. >> >> The Noongar community came together in the early 1990's to >> establish a more consistent use of spellings to enable the language to be >> taught in schools, currently there are about 50 schools across the WA >> teaching Noongar. The simple act of translating the 762 most important >> messages has been a complex task of consultations with many groups, spread >> across the regions. When it came to writing content we encouraged two >> things one was localised spelling as we do for english and recording the >> knowledge(Katitjin). Knowing all of this background and having >> experienced many a waagnkininy about language over the last 4 years ( all >> early work was hosted by WMAU) the decision was taken for inclusiveness >> to allow english while the community is being built as we dont want to be >> seen a preferencing any specific one of the 15-20 different regional groups. >> >> Because of the survival of Noongar and continual use as a language >> despite laws, aided by it's adoption in to South West Australian english >> its probably one of the most complex living languages Wikimedia Movement >> will ever see. >> >> The value and future benefits to the movement of allowing the move >> now far exceeds the cost in using a few words of english in its initial >> phase. As always members are welcome to come to WA to experience >> firsthand a living language and culture that has been in continual use for >> 50,000+ years. >> >> Boodar >> Gnangarra >> >> >> >> On 18 December 2017 at 21:43, Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Gnangarra, >>> >>> I'm quite confused, because practically all the samples I looked >>> at from https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wp/nys are >>> articles *in English*, not in Nyungar. A new language edition of >>> Wikipedia needs to be *in that language*, not content in another >>> language (in this case English) *about* that language and its >>> culture, etc. The content as it presently stands should either be >>> incorporated into the English Wikipedia (although with their stringent >>> notability criteria I'm afraid a lot, if not most it, would be deleted) or >>> into a separate wiki. >>> >>> Is there something I'm missing? >>> >>> 2017-12-16 4:05 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au: >>> >>>> Kaya Folks >>>> >>>> We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and >>>> continue to expand the translations and the article content. As I see it >>>> we are ready to go, >>>> >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/W >>>> ikipedia_Nyungar >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gideon Digby >>>> Vice President - Wikimedia Australia >>>> M: 0434 986 852 >>>> gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au >>>> http://wikimedia.org.au >>>> >>>> Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable >>>> organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in >>>> Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. >>>> *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Langcom mailing list >>>> Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mvh >>> Jon Harald Søby >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gideon Digby >> Vice President - Wikimedia Australia >> M: 0434 986 852 >> gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au >> http://wikimedia.org.au >> >> Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation >> which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your >> donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. >> *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate* >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Langcom mailing list >> Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom >> >> >
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Here is a paragraph chosen at random from the Incubator.
The Darlmoorluk (English names Australian Ringneck, or Twenty-eight Parrot from its page number in an old book of birds in Perth[source?]) is a native dweller of the Australian south-west, a particularly unique *jerda* (bird) within Noongar *boodjar* (country). Darlmoorluk's possess predominantly black heads, often with subtle blue hues around the cheeks, *wer* red *wer* yellow markings around the nose *wer* neck [1]. Physically, the most recognisable attribute of the *jerda* are the vibrant greens of the Darlmoorluk’s body.[1] Occasionally, there are hints of yellow *il* the jerda's breast, which is a physical indicator of hybridisation between Darlmoorluk *wer* other *trowan* (green parrots) from regions beyond Noongar *boodjar*.[1]
I have put non-English words between *asterisks*,
This is not a Wikipedia article localized into an Australian language.
Compare Winaray https://war.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnardius_zonarius
Compare Western Mari https://mrj.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B4 попугай
Compare Welsh https://cy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parot_torchfelyn_y_mal%C3%AE
On 7 Feb 2018, at 07:08, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
Where are we this, its 12 months since I was first contacted by committee members and told that this is ready to go I'll help get it through. In Berlin I spoke with the committee they were happy with the project and requested the translations the key terms to be done. We have been translating focusing on translating article content. we have exceeded the activity criteria.
Delaying getting to nys.wikipedia is holding back WMAU ability to further engage with over 300 Indigenous language as they are all watching and waiting to see what happens with one of the strongest continuous languages.
I would not want this to serve as an example to 300 indigenous languages.
Sorry, but this does not, so far, qualify, in my opinion. Replacing all examples of “and” with “wer” is not enough.
Michael
So this remains a contentious issue. IIRC, previous discussion tried to come up with a plan for specialized wikis in heritage languages. Does a community where the majority (or even *every* community member) no longer speaks the original language have a right to preserve it in WMF projects? I would like to see this happen, and nys:wp looks like a great prototype and pilot to me. Hundreds of Aboriginal, First Nation and Native American languages might follow suit. This also is part of the "sum of human knowledge" even if (for sociolinguistic and/or privacy reasons) it is not possible to compose continuous texts in those languages any longer.
Fwiw, Oliver
On 10-Feb-18 01:04, Michael Everson wrote:
Here is a paragraph chosen at random from the Incubator.
The Darlmoorluk (English names Australian Ringneck, or Twenty-eight Parrot from its page number in an old book of birds in Perth[source?]) is a native dweller of the Australian south-west, a particularly unique *jerda* (bird) within Noongar *boodjar* (country). Darlmoorluk's possess predominantly black heads, often with subtle blue hues around the cheeks, *wer* red *wer* yellow markings around the nose *wer* neck [1]. Physically, the most recognisable attribute of the *jerda* are the vibrant greens of the Darlmoorluk’s body.[1] Occasionally, there are hints of yellow *il* the jerda's breast, which is a physical indicator of hybridisation between Darlmoorluk *wer* other *trowan* (green parrots) from regions beyond Noongar *boodjar*.[1]
I have put non-English words between *asterisks*,
This is not a Wikipedia article localized into an Australian language.
Compare Winaray https://war.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnardius_zonarius
Compare Western Mari https://mrj.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B4 попугай
Compare Welsh https://cy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parot_torchfelyn_y_mal%C3%AE
On 7 Feb 2018, at 07:08, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
Where are we this, its 12 months since I was first contacted by committee members and told that this is ready to go I'll help get it through. In Berlin I spoke with the committee they were happy with the project and requested the translations the key terms to be done. We have been translating focusing on translating article content. we have exceeded the activity criteria.
Delaying getting to nys.wikipedia is holding back WMAU ability to further engage with over 300 Indigenous language as they are all watching and waiting to see what happens with one of the strongest continuous languages.
I would not want this to serve as an example to 300 indigenous languages.
Sorry, but this does not, so far, qualify, in my opinion. Replacing all examples of “and” with “wer” is not enough.
Michael _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com
OK, where is this? I had better take a look at it. It sounds controversial.
On 20 Dec 2017, at 11:22, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
Kaya
disclaimer: In saying the below I believe nys.wikipedia.org is ready, and very capable to stand alone, but I am also thinking about options based on Gerards suggestions and the potential for additional knowledge growth for communities beyond the Noongar language;
what if it was nys.abridged.wikipedia
It could be; At this Wikipedia we work to write an encyclopaedia in Noongar language. We use Noongar language where ever possible and english when necessary. This Wikipedia reflects the challenges of working with primarily an oral language and the importance of sharing the cultural knowledge of the Noongar people. The broader less noongar specific knowledge topics are best written about on en.wikipedia.org.
This would create a model for other language communities to follow from the incubator, yet they would still be a "Wikipedia" which itself is an important aspect. We could create a path way that over time could enable progression and drop the '' .abridged '' if the community wished to do so in the future.
On 20 December 2017 at 18:07, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, We have a situation where it makes sense to provide a platform for the Noongar language and culture. As you will read in the thread, Wikipedia is not the platform for this because of the hostility against subjects that lack "sources". The Noongar language is largely oral so much of the content will be in English..
So the question for you and the Wikimedia board is: can we provide room for them probably under a different platform name? Thanks, GerardM
On 19 December 2017 at 10:26, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote: Kaya
I did raise my concerns about the use of english when in Berlin and was told that it was ok, I'll focus on getting more of it translated though I hope this doesnt hold the project.
One of our key issues is that Noongar is an oral language and written form is the result of european records, those records have created a situation where the written language is different dependent on the language the person spoke. We people like Salvado a Spanish Benedictine monk who's spelling used a mixture of spanish and latin depending on the sounds. Then there are various English, Welsh and Celtic settlers along with dutch, french, and german explorers all of whom recorded it in their own orthographies... One top of the region in which the language was spoken is larger than UK and like the UK areas had their own unique dialects despite speaking the same language. The beauty of this that some words can have more than 25 different spellings.
The Noongar community came together in the early 1990's to establish a more consistent use of spellings to enable the language to be taught in schools, currently there are about 50 schools across the WA teaching Noongar. The simple act of translating the 762 most important messages has been a complex task of consultations with many groups, spread across the regions. When it came to writing content we encouraged two things one was localised spelling as we do for english and recording the knowledge(Katitjin). Knowing all of this background and having experienced many a waagnkininy about language over the last 4 years ( all early work was hosted by WMAU) the decision was taken for inclusiveness to allow english while the community is being built as we dont want to be seen a preferencing any specific one of the 15-20 different regional groups.
Because of the survival of Noongar and continual use as a language despite laws, aided by it's adoption in to South West Australian english its probably one of the most complex living languages Wikimedia Movement will ever see.
The value and future benefits to the movement of allowing the move now far exceeds the cost in using a few words of english in its initial phase. As always members are welcome to come to WA to experience firsthand a living language and culture that has been in continual use for 50,000+ years.
Boodar Gnangarra
On 18 December 2017 at 21:43, Jon Harald Søby jhsoby@gmail.com wrote: Hi Gnangarra,
I'm quite confused, because practically all the samples I looked at from https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wp/nys are articles in English, not in Nyungar. A new language edition of Wikipedia needs to be in that language, not content in another language (in this case English) about that language and its culture, etc. The content as it presently stands should either be incorporated into the English Wikipedia (although with their stringent notability criteria I'm afraid a lot, if not most it, would be deleted) or into a separate wiki.
Is there something I'm missing?
2017-12-16 4:05 GMT+01:00 Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au: Kaya Folks
We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and continue to expand the translations and the article content. As I see it we are ready to go,
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Nyungar
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- mvh Jon Harald Søby
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
It’s not a Wikipedia as we know it. It’s also mostly stubs and almost-stubs. I don’t know if we have a place for it. Has Wikia been considered?
Michael
- Wikia have recently renamed their site to Fandom, and their description is now "The entertainment site where fans come first". While it is still technically possible to create such a project in wikia, I am not sure if it is going to be a good fit there. In addition, vision of WMF is to allow sum of all knowledge to be freely shared among every human, so it is probably appropriate to include it in one of WMF's platform, - Actually, a while ago, I have created a proposal for new projects on meta wiki, http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Domestic_encyclopedia , which would have been a project for collecting information about culture society and such in different place around the earth. This proposed project will probably fit what is being proposed, although I didn't give much thought about the project name and such when I write that proposal which could probably be further refined. 2017年12月22日 上午7:09 於 "Michael Everson" everson@evertype.com 寫道：
It’s not a Wikipedia as we know it. It’s also mostly stubs and
almost-stubs. I don’t know if we have a place for it. Has Wikia been considered?
Michael _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
Hoi, There are good arguments that I see to provide a platform for something like this. The best argument is that the English community does not get it and will destroy much of its integrity. So while I think that calling this a Wikipedia is not correct, there is room for this as a Wikiproject in the Wiki community.
What are the considerations for keeping the integrity of this body of knowledge. How do we sign of on the quality, are there people in the Nyungar language community who "own" this project; who call it theirs?
What else is there to be considered? Thanks, GerardM
On 16 December 2017 at 04:05, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au wrote:
Kaya Folks
We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and continue to expand the translations and the article content. As I see it we are ready to go,
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_ languages/Wikipedia_Nyungar
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
So, here's the problem: the request appears to be for something other than what we usually know as "a Wikipedia in a language".
The disclaimer at the top of the current nys main page says: "the use of Noongar language is encouraged but not essential as we recognise wer acknowledge the different stages of people's ability to write wer read Noongar".
This goes against what is done in ~290 other Wikipedias. Wikipedias are divided by language. Not by country, culture, religion, ethnic group, or belonging to a community or any other identity.
I'm not saying that the content of this incubator is totally bad or totally illegitimate. I'm saying that this content is a wiki site of a community of Noongar people, that is not necessarily written in the Noongar language. What we are supposed to approve is an wiki encyclopedia in the Noongar language, and this is simply not what the current incubator is. So according to the current policies this cannot be approved.
All that said, I'm not, in principle, opposed to the existence of a wiki site about the Noongar culture (or any other culture), that will be written in English (or any other language), and that will have different content policies from Wikipedia in English (or in any other language). The current "strategic direction" document ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2017/Direction ) hints at the possibility and the desirability of creating projects like this, but for all practical purposes, no such project exists at the moment, and I really don't see how can Langcom in its current form create it.
Perhaps the Noongar wiki, which is Noongar by its cultural belonging and not necessary by language, can be the pioneer of such a project, but this is a topic for a wider discussion with the Wikimedia community and with the Board, and not something that the Langcom can approve.
Needless to say, I'd be totally happy if a group of people who do know Noongar, would create an actual Wikipedia in the Noongar language: move pages in English to some other space, only leave pages in the Noongar language, and improve them to a level of what the Atikamekw (atj) and Dinka (din) Wikipedias were a few months ago when they graduated from incubator: 100+ articles, many of them about local topics, without a lot of links, images, and templates, but with enough local knowledge and basic text quality.
I don't want to speak for the rest of the Langcom, but I surely won't make the absence of a fully standardized orthography a blocker to creating the language. If a Wikipedia is one of the first things to be published in this language, it's totally fine by me if the orthography is not perfectly standard and stable. But sorry, it cannot be in English.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2017-12-16 5:05 GMT+02:00 Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au:
Kaya Folks
We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and continue to expand the translations and the article content. As I see it we are ready to go,
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_ languages/Wikipedia_Nyungar
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom