User:George Ho poked us [1] in relation to the proposals for closing projects [2]. I went there to deal with the simplest cases, but, again, Moldovan...
There are a couple of obvious reasons why this issue hasn't been solved for a long time. Most importantly, there are *some* people who use and want to use that orthography, so the logic says that it's not on us to interfere with it, but to wait for the native speakers (actually, "native writers") to appear.
We've been waiting for ~12 years and I think we could wait for as long as it's necessary.
But I was reading about the issue again. You know, a kind of compulsive reading: I knew I won't get any new information, as I'd read all of the materials and Wikipedia articles a number of times, but I was reading anyway.
However, it was productive at last and I've changed my mind.
The value of learning that particular orthography by Moldovan pupils in Transnitria is around zero. All of them are likely native in Russian and, outside of the specific usage, interesting to the specialists (likely just historians), the whole corpus written in Moldovan Cyrillic is likely the subset of what's written in Russian.
In other words, as soon as a Transitrian Moldovan learns Romanian/Moldovan Latin orthography, as better for her or him. And we should support it.
So, I tend to suggest to the Board backing up and deletion of the projects in Moldovan. However, I want to hear what you think about it before the final proposal. I would also suggest that we do not make the future requests eligible as long as we do not see a substantial number of native contributors. (Note that nobody appeared since 2005 or so.)
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Proposals_for_closing_projects#Older_on... [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects
I support this. This was always my opinion, more or less.
If Transnistria is the issue... Getting information from that place is kinda hard, but my suspicion is Cyrillic Moldovan is barely used there. I can only find one newspaper in this language, which is functioning only thanks to government support.
The only good reason for having such projects would be if there are schools functioning in this language with this alphabet. If the projects actually had some sensible content, it would be useful for the students. But the content definitely doesn't exist at the moment, and as Milos says, there are no signs that anybody is planning to step in and write some, and I'm not sure about the existence of such schools.
TLDR: Close.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2017-04-15 22:19 GMT+03:00 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
User:George Ho poked us [1] in relation to the proposals for closing projects [2]. I went there to deal with the simplest cases, but, again, Moldovan...
There are a couple of obvious reasons why this issue hasn't been solved for a long time. Most importantly, there are *some* people who use and want to use that orthography, so the logic says that it's not on us to interfere with it, but to wait for the native speakers (actually, "native writers") to appear.
We've been waiting for ~12 years and I think we could wait for as long as it's necessary.
But I was reading about the issue again. You know, a kind of compulsive reading: I knew I won't get any new information, as I'd read all of the materials and Wikipedia articles a number of times, but I was reading anyway.
However, it was productive at last and I've changed my mind.
The value of learning that particular orthography by Moldovan pupils in Transnitria is around zero. All of them are likely native in Russian and, outside of the specific usage, interesting to the specialists (likely just historians), the whole corpus written in Moldovan Cyrillic is likely the subset of what's written in Russian.
In other words, as soon as a Transitrian Moldovan learns Romanian/Moldovan Latin orthography, as better for her or him. And we should support it.
So, I tend to suggest to the Board backing up and deletion of the projects in Moldovan. However, I want to hear what you think about it before the final proposal. I would also suggest that we do not make the future requests eligible as long as we do not see a substantial number of native contributors. (Note that nobody appeared since 2005 or so.)
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Proposals_for_ closing_projects#Older_ongoing_proposals [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects
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On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
TLDR: Close.
Keep in mind that this is DELETE request. It's been closed already for a decade.
OK, that's what I meant. Does it make sense to move to Incubator?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2017-04-15 23:15 GMT+03:00 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
TLDR: Close.
Keep in mind that this is DELETE request. It's been closed already for a decade.
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On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
OK, that's what I meant. Does it make sense to move to Incubator?
AFAIK, the content is of poor quality. But it's not even about that, but about our message: the educational value of the orthography is around zero and we should support more useful education (either in Romanian or in Russian).
The educational value is on the level of having a Wikipedia in any proto-language, like Middle English is (Hello, Michael! :P).
I'm sitting on the fence on this one.
On the one hand, DELETING is a terrible action - I'd almost always support keeping something rather than throwing it away for ever. On the other hand, if we move everything and anything that isn't viable as an independent project to the Incubator, then the Incubator is in danger of becoming a rubbish dump.
So, with a heavy heart, and on the condition that there is nothing in there that is worth keeping, I would vote for deletion.
On 15-Apr-17 22:33, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
OK, that's what I meant. Does it make sense to move to Incubator?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2017-04-15 23:15 GMT+03:00 Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com mailto:millosh@gmail.com>:
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Amir E. Aharoni <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il <mailto:amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>> wrote: > TLDR: Close. Keep in mind that this is DELETE request. It's been closed already for a decade. _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom>
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If Moldovan is a version of Romanian that is pretty much equal to each other except orthography, then why there're two different wikis at the beginning? (Same question for Hindi-Urdu, Malaysian-Indonesian, etc. to a lesser extent)
2017-04-24 16:47 GMT+08:00 Oliver Stegen oliver_stegen@sil.org:
I'm sitting on the fence on this one.
On the one hand, DELETING is a terrible action - I'd almost always support keeping something rather than throwing it away for ever. On the other hand, if we move everything and anything that isn't viable as an independent project to the Incubator, then the Incubator is in danger of becoming a rubbish dump.
So, with a heavy heart, and on the condition that there is nothing in there that is worth keeping, I would vote for deletion.
On 15-Apr-17 22:33, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
OK, that's what I meant. Does it make sense to move to Incubator?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2017-04-15 23:15 GMT+03:00 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
TLDR: Close.
Keep in mind that this is DELETE request. It's been closed already for a decade.
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Can’t the Moldovan Cyrillic stuff be Latinized and offered to the Romanian wiki community?
On 24 Apr 2017, at 09:47, Oliver Stegen oliver_stegen@sil.org wrote:
I'm sitting on the fence on this one.
On the one hand, DELETING is a terrible action - I'd almost always support keeping something rather than throwing it away for ever. On the other hand, if we move everything and anything that isn't viable as an independent project to the Incubator, then the Incubator is in danger of becoming a rubbish dump.
So, with a heavy heart, and on the condition that there is nothing in there that is worth keeping, I would vote for deletion.
On 15-Apr-17 22:33, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
OK, that's what I meant. Does it make sense to move to Incubator?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2017-04-15 23:15 GMT+03:00 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com: On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
TLDR: Close.
Keep in mind that this is DELETE request. It's been closed already for a decade.
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I agree that is should be deleted too. Not the ideal solution, but we have no better option.
El 24/04/2017 a las 11:47 a.m., Oliver Stegen escribió:
I'm sitting on the fence on this one.
On the one hand, DELETING is a terrible action - I'd almost always support keeping something rather than throwing it away for ever. On the other hand, if we move everything and anything that isn't viable as an independent project to the Incubator, then the Incubator is in danger of becoming a rubbish dump.
So, with a heavy heart, and on the condition that there is nothing in there that is worth keeping, I would vote for deletion.
On 15-Apr-17 22:33, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
OK, that's what I meant. Does it make sense to move to Incubator?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2017-04-15 23:15 GMT+03:00 Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com mailto:millosh@gmail.com>:
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Amir E. Aharoni <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il <mailto:amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>> wrote: > TLDR: Close. Keep in mind that this is DELETE request. It's been closed already for a decade. _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom>
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Few things should be noted:
1) Moldovan Wikipedia doesn't have legitimate content in Moldovan. The articles are either bad translation from English or bad transliteration from Romanian. (And we know who did it, but he haven't yet said anything here, although he is getting emails from this list :P )
2) During the existence of the Wikipedia we didn't get *one* Moldovan interested in Moldovan Wikipedia. All of them from Moldova want to edit Romanian Wikipedia, while nobody from Transnitria has appeared with wish to edit Moldovan Wikipedia.
And few other notes:
I don't like the reasoning behind the request for closure and deletion of Moldovan Wikipedia and no matter of the previous points, I was in favor of simply keeping it as-is while waiting for anyone to appear.
However, it is very important that almost nobody uses it, that those who use it are actually native speakers of Russian and that for children learning their native language is of much higher benefit to learn the Romanian orthography.
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Maor Malul maor_x@zoho.com wrote:
I agree that is should be deleted too. Not the ideal solution, but we have no better option.
El 24/04/2017 a las 11:47 a.m., Oliver Stegen escribió:
I'm sitting on the fence on this one.
On the one hand, DELETING is a terrible action - I'd almost always support keeping something rather than throwing it away for ever. On the other hand, if we move everything and anything that isn't viable as an independent project to the Incubator, then the Incubator is in danger of becoming a rubbish dump.
So, with a heavy heart, and on the condition that there is nothing in there that is worth keeping, I would vote for deletion.
On 15-Apr-17 22:33, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
OK, that's what I meant. Does it make sense to move to Incubator?
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2017-04-15 23:15 GMT+03:00 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
TLDR: Close.
Keep in mind that this is DELETE request. It's been closed already for a decade.
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-- "Jülüjain wane mmakat ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain." Maor Malul Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 | www.wikimedia.org.ve Member, Wikimedia Israel | www.wikimedia.org.il Vice-Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee Phone: +972-52-4869915 Twitter: @maor_x
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