Hello,

I know you haven’t heard from me in awhile and I hope this e-mail is recognized by the list.

I was the original registrant of the ISO “gsw” tag. I’ve read the discussion page for this, but only in assisted translation, though I can parse the French OK. I’d also add that I registered this tag maybe 10 years ago and suggested this change on the Wikipedia shortly afterward before I ever joined Langcom. I think that might have been how I ended up here? :)

These points may help clarify some things:

1. The “gsw” tag is what’s appropriate for Alsatian, Schweizerdeutsch, and Alemannic. Those are considered to be dialects of the same language continuum. It is a bit of an unusual tag in that it does indicate a range of related dialects. Any discussion of Swabian relates to what ISO considers a separate language.

Ref: http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/langcodes-keyword.php?SearchTerm=g... http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/langcodes-keyword.php?SearchTerm=gsw&SearchType=ALL

2. The IETF tags discussed are more specific than the ISO code and can be used to distinguish the three named variants above by region — if that is useful. This is one case where allowing the IETF tagging could be very useful, IMHO, but not sure where the group stands with respect to that. However, it should be noted that there is more than one dialect of GSW just in Germany. But there are other variant tagging options for that. That could be preferable. I can’t say.

3. But ISO codes are not assigned by region. It appears that someone is questioning why other languages spoken in Alsace are not part of the same tag? There, I may have lost something in translation. The Amish language discussed is also considered distinct, but would have to look up the code.

4. Those familiar with these dialects should be clear that gsw and gsw-CH are not used to describe High German as written in Switzerland for formal purposes. They describe the more casual dialect used in informal situations that is not easily understood by speakers of High German.

In any event, “gsw” certainly seems to be a better tag than “als.” Just some question as to whether the Wiki contains a specific variant that could be identified with more specific tagging and whether we want to allow that. I will look through the discussion more closely. I could provide a better answer if I knew more about the community that works on this and which variant is primarily used, or whether the dialect variants are mixed throughout the Wikipedia. Hope this helps.

Regards,

Karen Broome

On Feb 8, 2017, at 2:09 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz psychoslave@culture-libre.org wrote:

By the way, we use "als" (https://als.wikipedia.org/ https://als.wikipedia.org/) for Alemannic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannic_German whose ISO 639-3 is "gsw". Should we do something about that ?

There are active discussions on Alemannic languages https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Sp%C3%A9cial:Recherche?search=gsw&prefix=Wiktionnaire%3AWikid%C3%A9mie&fulltext=Rechercher+dans+les+archives+de+la+Wikid%C3%A9mie&fulltext=Search on the French Wikitionnary, with a good summary of the situation https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionnaire:Wikid%C3%A9mie/janvier_2017#Que_faire_de_l.27alsacien_.3F and solution proposals by Lyokoï. Discussions are following works around the project "langues de France https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projet:Langues_de_France", especially lingualibre http://www.lingualibre.fr/, and various support from OLCA (Office pour la Langue et la Culture d’Alsace, Office for the Language and Culture of Alsace) which provided active help in finding location to host the next Wikiconvention francophone https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConvention_francophone/2017/fr.

There are also some discussion on "gsw" on the Alemanic Wikipedia https://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spezial:Suech?search=gsw&prefix=Wikipedia%3AStammtisch%2F&fulltext=Archiv+dursueche&fulltext=Search&searchToken=agupy8m0zs1u98f6wtoje1n9a.

Bis bàll, Mathieu

Le 02/02/2017 à 16:50, Danny B. a écrit :

...

Hello,

here is the summary of ISO 639-3 annual changes:

Retirements (= the following codes no longer exist)

• 5 simple retirements

** prb / Lua' ** puk / Pu Ko ** rie / Rien ** rsi / Rennellese Sign Language ** snh / Shinabo

• 3 merged retirements

** jeg / Jeng -> oyb /Oy ** skk / Sok -> oyb / Oy ** krm / Krim -> bmf / Bom-Kim

• 1 split language

** kgd / Kataang -> ncq / Northern Katang + sct / Southern Katang

Additions (= the following codes have been added)

• 8 newly created languages not previously associated with another language in the code set

** gie / Gaɓogbo ** ibh / Bih ** lth / Thur ** npx / Noipx ** nql / Ngendelengo ** szs / Solomon Islands Sign Language ** ukk / Muak Sa-aak ** xdo / Kwandu

• 2 newly created languages created by splitting the previously existing

** ncq / Northern Katang (ex kgd / Kataang) ** sct / Southern Katang (ex kgd / Kataang)

Updates

• 8 name updates, either change to a name form or addition of a name form

** blv: Bolo -> Kibala ** bmf: Bom -> Bom-Kim ** cug: Chung -> Chungmboko ** klw: Lindu -> Tado ** krr: Kru'ng 2 -> Krung ** lgn: Opuuo -> T'apo ** ngt: Ngeq -> Kriang ** ovd: Övdalian -> Elfdalian

• 2 denotation updates of a language into which another variety or two was merged

** oyb (+jeg, +skk) ** bmf (+krm)

Kind regards

Danny B.

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Le 16/02/2017 à 05:20, Karen Broome a écrit :

Hello,

I know you haven’t heard from me in awhile and I hope this e-mail is recognized by the list.

No problem as far as I'm concerned, email is for asynchronous discussions. :)

I was the original registrant of the ISO “gsw” tag. I’ve read the discussion page for this, but only in assisted translation, though I can parse the French OK. I’d also add that I registered this tag maybe 10 years ago and suggested this change on the Wikipedia shortly afterward before I ever joined Langcom. I think that might have been how I ended up here? :)

These points may help clarify some things:

1. The “gsw” tag is what’s appropriate for Alsatian, Schweizerdeutsch,

and Alemannic. Those are considered to be dialects of the same language continuum. It is a bit of an unusual tag in that it does indicate a range of related dialects. Any discussion of Swabian relates to what ISO considers a separate language.

Ref: http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/langcodes-keyword.php?SearchTerm=g...

Ok, thank you for the link and the clarification.

2. The IETF tags discussed are more specific than the ISO code and can

be used to distinguish the three named variants above by region — if that is useful. This is one case where allowing the IETF tagging could be very useful, IMHO, but not sure where the group stands with respect to that. However, it should be noted that there is more than one dialect of GSW just in Germany. But there are other variant tagging options for that. That could be preferable. I can’t say.

Well, at least for wiktionnary, it seems that it might be an interesting possible solution.

3. But ISO codes are not assigned by region. It appears that someone

is questioning why other languages spoken in Alsace are not part of the same tag? There, I may have lost something in translation. The Amish language discussed is also considered distinct, but would have to look up the code.

Well I will look back at the discussion to be sure, but basically there are many dialect and subdialects in the region. It also says that one of the subdialect (alemán coloniero) is used by a diaspora among which an "important" Amish US community.

4. Those familiar with these dialects should be clear that gsw and

gsw-CH are not used to describe High German as written in Switzerland for formal purposes. They describe the more casual dialect used in informal situations that is not easily understood by speakers of High German.

Yes, that's totally clear that it's about casual dialect. :)

In any event, “gsw” certainly seems to be a better tag than “als.” Just some question as to whether the Wiki contains a specific variant that could be identified with more specific tagging and whether we want to allow that. I will look through the discussion more closely. I could provide a better answer if I knew more about the community that works on this and which variant is primarily used, or whether the dialect variants are mixed throughout the Wikipedia. Hope this helps.

Yes, thank you Karen

Regards,

Karen Broome

...

On Feb 8, 2017, at 2:09 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz <psychoslave@culture-libre.org mailto:psychoslave@culture-libre.org> wrote:

By the way, we use "als" (https://als.wikipedia.org/) for Alemannic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannic_German whose ISO 639-3 is "gsw". Should we do something about that ?

There are active discussions on Alemannic language*s* https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Sp%C3%A9cial:Recherche?search=gsw&prefix=Wiktionnaire%3AWikid%C3%A9mie&fulltext=Rechercher+dans+les+archives+de+la+Wikid%C3%A9mie&fulltext=Search on the French Wikitionnary, with a good summary of the situation https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionnaire:Wikid%C3%A9mie/janvier_2017#Que_faire_de_l.27alsacien_.3F and solution proposals by Lyokoï. Discussions are following works around the project "langues de France https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projet:Langues_de_France", especially lingualibre http://www.lingualibre.fr/, and various support from OLCA (/Office pour la Langue et la Culture d’Alsace/, Office for the Language and Culture of Alsace) which provided active help in finding location to host the next Wikiconvention francophone https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConvention_francophone/2017/fr.

There are also some discussion on "gsw" on the Alemanic Wikipedia https://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spezial:Suech?search=gsw&prefix=Wikipedia%3AStammtisch%2F&fulltext=Archiv+dursueche&fulltext=Search&searchToken=agupy8m0zs1u98f6wtoje1n9a.

Bis bàll, Mathieu

Le 02/02/2017 à 16:50, Danny B. a écrit :

...

Hello,

here is the summary of ISO 639-3 annual changes:

Retirements (= the following codes no longer exist)

• 5 simple retirements

** prb / Lua' ** puk / Pu Ko ** rie / Rien ** rsi / Rennellese Sign Language ** snh / Shinabo

• 3 merged retirements

** jeg / Jeng -> oyb /Oy ** skk / Sok -> oyb / Oy ** krm / Krim -> bmf / Bom-Kim

• 1 split language

** kgd / Kataang -> ncq / Northern Katang + sct / Southern Katang

Additions (= the following codes have been added)

• 8 newly created languages not previously associated with another

language in the code set ** gie / Gaɓogbo ** ibh / Bih ** lth / Thur ** npx / Noipx ** nql / Ngendelengo ** szs / Solomon Islands Sign Language ** ukk / Muak Sa-aak ** xdo / Kwandu

• 2 newly created languages created by splitting the previously existing

** ncq / Northern Katang (ex kgd / Kataang) ** sct / Southern Katang (ex kgd / Kataang)

Updates

• 8 name updates, either change to a name form or addition of a name

form ** blv: Bolo -> Kibala ** bmf: Bom -> Bom-Kim ** cug: Chung -> Chungmboko ** klw: Lindu -> Tado ** krr: Kru'ng 2 -> Krung ** lgn: Opuuo -> T'apo ** ngt: Ngeq -> Kriang ** ovd: Övdalian -> Elfdalian

• 2 denotation updates of a language into which another variety or

two was merged ** oyb (+jeg, +skk) ** bmf (+krm)

Kind regards

Danny B.

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