Hi Amir and all I disagree with closure on a few points and will respond inline after each. I also include the CEE Hub list and a few other people that might be interested.
On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 2:26 PM Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
Hi,
There's this old, contentious discussion:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Montene...
Discussion is not just contentious, to be disregarded as a whole, as quite a few good and elaborate intellectual inputs were made... At best you can say that some of the parts are contentious.
Though explicit critical positions and tensions is not the norm among Anglophones and people who aspire to fit in there, there are cultures/languages where 'glove' wearing/true conflict avoiding, while still doing other types of violence, is also not the norm...
It is patronizing to assume the same tone in interaction everywhere and discredit all presented arguments and lived experiences (some jaded with traumas or at least frustrations of oppression).
I somehow thought that it's already marked as ineligible, but it isn't.
There is a good reason for this not being a clear case as there are projects *(starting with Bosnian, that first separated from SH macro-language Wikipedia) that thrive and have even less distinction then Montenegrin does.
I'd say that it should be marked as such.
Based on what? Montenegrin is now a separate language standard that has also extra letters and state has ongoing war-like tension to Serbia, so both linguistically there is a need and culturally there is a need as it is not possible to just assume good faith or ambivalence.
I've allowed localization in that language on translatewiki,
Thank you!
similarly to en-gb, de-ch, etc., but it doesn't seem distinct enough for a whole Wikipedia.
IMHO having a Wikipedia has long been a thing of just language distinction (that is explicit here with Montenegrin to significant enough to be made) but also a matter of social and cultural distinction. Wikipedia is now even used to emancipate and empower preservation of cultures *(often minority, close to extinct historic) ... let alone here. Since local language is not supported with Wikipedia in Montenegrin the content gap is just increasing rapidly when compared with Serbian, which is fastest growing and for 15 years the only well resourced language of HBS spectrum with two distinct affiliates *(others have none!).
Keeping Montenegrin Wikipedia growing a community in incubator does not cost WMF anything and requires no extra action. Blocking it will render a full state and language standard unwelcome while providing even more support to those who are against it.
Does anyone disagree? If not, I'll be bold and mark it as ineligible in a
week.
I strongly disagree. Not because I am die hard nationalist for Montenegro, not because I think Wikipedias should discipline users over language standards, not because I think it is super situation in the regional Wikipedias as it is, but because I think such action will add to a pile of bad Wikimedia decisions in treating this troubled region and will re-ignite tensions and oppress minority, in the time when WMF PRing that we are inclusive, diverse and equitable Movement for all world's knowledge...and failing miserably in this region.
While WMF project Abstract Wikipedia and WikiFunctions works toward reducing need for multiplying efforts of translation for all types of articles and in few years we will have situation where language policies will need to change your action is not needed but would trigger negative impulses.
Mind you I am working on HBS macro-language project of Wikivoyage with all exactly because we have to have more diverse strategies and multiple options to accommodate diversity, rather then pushing for rigid rules of single language standard per project, but then also failing some for their weak representation.
To me that is like a doctrine you from Israel and Warburg from Germany *(who by the way on his own power blocked creation of new pages there) should discourage considering histories/present conflicts and power-plays.
If you do block it please be aware that this will become a public matter that will waist more energy and create more frustration for sure, then to just ... let it be?!.
Warm regards - Z. Blace
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave@lists.wikimedia.org