Hi,
The way in which the Incubator works is extremely outdated. It is
considerably more difficult to write there than to write in a usual
Wikipedia domain. This is unfair, and there is no good reason for it. Some
time ago I wrote a proposal for a thorough overhaul of how the Incubator
works.
Very briefly, my proposal is:
* Instead of putting all the languages in one place, create a wiki for each
new language.
* This wiki will not be a full-fledged domain that is fully equal to
Wikipedia. The URL will look differently, and it will be possible to delete
it easily if the wiki turns out to be problematic for any reason.
* However, this wiki will support all the usual functionality of a wiki:
user accounts shared with Wikipeia in other languages, Wikidata
connectivity, extensions, templates, Visual Editor, Content Translation,
etc.
* The wiki will not demand the convoluted techniques that the Incubator
demands, such as "Wp/abc/" prefixes.
* If the wiki functions well and the Langcom approves it, it will be
converted to a full-fledged domain.
* (This applies to all Incubator projects and not only Wikipedia.)
For more details, see:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T165585
The proposal is over a year old, but it didn't get a lot of responses from
Language Committee members. I think that the time is ripe for starting to
execute it, but to convince the right engineers and managers to do it, it
would be nice to get some endorsements first.
If you support it, please leave a comment there. (If you don't know how to
leave a comment in Phabricator, please contact me.)
If you have any reservations, please leave a comment there as well, or
reply to this email.
Getting a unanimous endorsement email from all the Langcom members, or at
least the active ones, will be particularly nice, but only if everybody
actually agrees, of course :)
Thank you!
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
Over the course of the last month (June 19-July 19, there has been a lengthy discussion on Meta about a proposal to close Simple English Wikipedia (SEWP) and merge its contents into English Wikipedia in a way that would make access to "Simple" content easier, with a higher profile. I am going to do my best to summarize that discussion here, but I strongly urge all LangCom members to look at the discussion directly. Page is here<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_S…>.
The following arguments were offered in favor of closing and merging (~35 !votes):
* SEWP offers a "dumbed-down" experience with article accuracy and reliability inferior to that of English Wikipedia.
* It doesn't address needs of English-as-a-Second-Language (ESL) users and other presumed core constituencies (like students).
* It is little used compared to English Wikipedia.
* There is no scholarly evidence that SEWP reaches its target audiences.
* It absorbs volunteer time that could be more productively used on other projects.
* SEWP is not well enough known as a separate project; content would be more used (and more useful) if it were integrated into English Wikipedia better.
* The project contains plenty of spam, and has become a home for users banned/blocked on other projects.
The following arguments were offered in opposition to closing (~90 !votes):
* Article quality is quite consistent with other projects its size. Comparison with the uniquely well-developed English Wikipedia is not necessarily appropriate.
* In some cases, English Wikipedia articles are so difficult and complex to navigate, they are inaccessible except to experts on the subject.
* Evidence exists that it does address its community, and that it is used comparably to other projects its size, or more.
* Several people noted its utility to them as non-native speakers.
* There is no evidence that volunteers would work on other projects, and some risk they would leave WM projects altogether.
* Spam is well controlled, and SEWP's "one-strike" rule allows it to indef users who are already blocked elsewhere quickly.
* There is no evidence that problems with SEWP are worse than those on any other project its size. As with any project, if there are problems, they should be addressed; closing the project is not necessary.
* If the project were closed due to vandalism, that would gives the vandals a victory (contra Deny Recognition<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deny_recognition>).
I offer the following personal comments related to technical and policy issues:
* Argument in favor of closing that "it isn't a language"/"doesn't have a code" is not valid, as this project is grandfathered and has previously been permitted.
* The community is robust and active. There would be no question about closing any other project having this level of community activity.
* At a certain level, the fact that this project is in English gives it wider visibility than is true of most other mid-sized projects.
* I have been active on this project in the past. (I am less so now.) But I see no evidence that spam and abusers are not well-controlled on this project. It takes just a bit longer, perhaps, than happens on English Wikipedia, but then there is no other project in our constellation that is as active 24/7 as English Wikipedia. It's inherently unfair to compare any other project to it.
* There is clear consensus from the SEWP community itself to stay open.
* There is no consensus from the English Wikipedia community on if, and how, it might integrate Simple English content.
* Original proposer agrees that SEWP should not actually be closed until there is a clear plan for integrating simple content into the experience of English Wikipedia.
One thing that both sides agree on is that Simple English content would be better used within Wikipedia if there were closer integration between SEWP and English Wikipedia. There are different ideas as to how to accomplish this, and in particular a big difference of opinion as to whether the connections should be between two independent projects or done as an integration of Simple English content into English Wikipedia. But everyone agrees that something along these lines would be worthwhile.
I would offer the following as a preliminary idea on closing this request:
* The proposal to close SEWP is rejected, for several reasons:
* The community is active and robust, and spam and vandalism are handled in a reasonable way, given the size of the community.
* Because this project existed before the current new projects policy was put in place, the fact that Simple English (a) does not have its own language code, and (b) may not be considered "different enough from English" to have its own wiki, simply is not relevant.
* Because of the preceding two points, there is no policy justification to close this project.
* Additionally, given that Oppose !votes greatly outnumber Support !votes, it cannot really even be said that the community has developed a consensus to recommend that LangCom close this project.
* In the future, requests to close this project that are based on "no language code" or "not different enough from English" may be closed speedily. Requests to close this project that are based on "inactivity" or "vandalism" will probably also be closed speedily, unless things change pretty radically at SEWP.
* As far as "merger" requests go, LangCom certainly likes the idea of Simple English content being more accessible from English Wikipedia. Whether that should be accomplished through merging the projects or merely better coordination between the two projects is a matter for the communities to decide, not LangCom. In light of that, we will not entertain a new request to "close and merge" unless it is presented as the consensus of both communities, and at least the broad outline of a plan to accomplish that is in place.
* As long as SEWP remains open, any request to close SE Wiktionary may be closed speedily. SE Wiktionary plays a specific support role to SEWP, and can remain open for that purpose in any event (barring uncontrolled vandalism).
I will leave this proposal here for a week, or until discussion dies down.
Steven
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
With no further comments on this within a week, I take this as LangCom approval, pending any comments from the community notice at Meta. If there are no such comments by 14:00 UTC Thursday, I will get the creation underway.
Steven
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
________________________________
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Subject: Langcom Digest, Vol 58, Issue 3
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Chinese Wikiversity (Steven White)
2. Re: Chinese Wikiversity (Oliver Stegen)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 14:09:48 +0000
From: Steven White <Koala19890(a)hotmail.com>
To: "langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org" <langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Chinese Wikiversity
Message-ID:
<BLUPR12MB0691B1088E38F9CFBDDC98529E400(a)BLUPR12MB0691.namprd12.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Having heard no negative comments so far, I am going to post the required announcement on Meta that we are proposing to approve this project.
Steven
Sent from Outlook<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fw…>
________________________________
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 18:05:40 +0000
From: Steven White <Koala19890(a)hotmail.com>
To: "langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org" <langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: [Langcom] Chinese Wikiversity
As of now Chinese Wikiversity test meets the standard activity requirement for approval: at least three registered editors making at least ten edits per month for at least three months. In every other way this project has long been ready for approval. I therefore propose that the project be approved.
Steven
As of now Chinese Wikiversity test meets the standard activity requirement for approval: at least three registered editors making at least ten edits per month for at least three months. In every other way this project has long been ready for approval. I therefore propose that the project be approved.
Steven
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
Having heard no negative comments so far, I am going to post the required announcement on Meta that we are proposing to approve this project.
Steven
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
________________________________
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 18:05:40 +0000
From: Steven White <Koala19890(a)hotmail.com>
To: "langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org" <langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: [Langcom] Chinese Wikiversity
As of now Chinese Wikiversity test meets the standard activity requirement for approval: at least three registered editors making at least ten edits per month for at least three months. In every other way this project has long been ready for approval. I therefore propose that the project be approved.
Steven
Polabian Wiktionary<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wiktionary_Polab…> (pox): This is a language that was spoken by Slavs living in the region between the Elbe and Oder rivers that went extinct in the mid-19th century. There is attestation to about 2800 words. This is a pet project of a specific individual user. And when several people (including me) questioned him on the extent of the vocabulary on the discussion page, his response was
"Of course, but you could just borrow borrowed words from Polish, Kashubian, etc., or put together new words. Or you invent new words. My goal is not to create a historical Wiktionary for scientists, but to invent a "New Polabian" and revive the language in its "basic form", such as "New-Prussian", Hebrew, Cornish."
Since I don't see our remit at WMF as being a place to host a revival like this, I propose rejecting this test and moving it to Wikia (or wherever else the user wants). I will wait seven days to hear opinions about this.
Flemish (Dutch) Wiktionary<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wiktionary_Flemi…> (nl-BE): I told the requester that he should try to work this into the standard Dutch Wiktionary. He said that he would do so, but is also going to try to get an ISO code. (For clarification, this is not for a project in the separate "Flemish" language, code vls.) I will reject on the grounds that it does not currently have a language code. If the proposer succeeds in getting one—an unlikely outcome, I'm guessing—it's still a good question whether it should exist separately from Dutch Wiktionary. But we don't have to decide that now.
Wiktionary Norman<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wiktionary_Norman> (nrf): Like its Wikipedia (which exists under a different/wrong langcode), this is intended to serve the broad group of Norman(d) dialects (such as Jèrriais and Guernésiais) . Eligible, but needs to be as broadly inclusive as the Wikipedia.
Wiktionary Lohorung<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wiktionary_Lohor…> (lbr): A Nepalese language with 6,200 speakers. Apparently has been a written language (using Devanagari) since 2010. Placing on hold (no content).
Wiktionary Hong Kong sign language<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wiktionary_Hong_…> (hks): On hold (no content).
Steven
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>