On Friday 20 February 2004 09:33 am, Jimmy Wales wrote:
Sascha Noyes wrote:
Have a look at [[My Lai Massacre]], [[Donald Rumsfeld]], etc. There are plenty of historical events that have copyrighted pictures, where there is no possibility of replacing them with free ones. (Unless, of course, you have a time machine)
Your point is a valid point, however I'd say that a handful of "fair use" images of extreme historical importance is a red herring.
Not at all, it is a compromise.
What I mean is, there are a few of those, and they may be cases where we come down on the side of relying on fair use, but they aren't relevant to the central issue.
I see two factions here. The "no fair use" faction, and the group that wants to allow fair use. As far as I can tell, the "no fair use" insists on getting rid of every single fair use image, which would include the examples that I and others have named. (My Lai massacre, Tinament Square, etc.) The pro-fair use group seems to want to offer a compromise: Only use fair use images for circumstances where GFDL images are impossible.
I'm much more concerned about images like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drew_Barrymore
Yes, but as I see it we have already opined that as a compromise we should only keep fair use images which are not attainable by any other means. A picture of a living actress does not fall into this category. Under the compromise, all such images would be deleted.
That's a non-free "fair use" image of Drew Barrymore that suppresses demand for a free alternative. And a free alternative is almost certainly possible. Drew Barrymore is a famous actress who regularly makes public appearances. She surely has a PR firm with access to her and to images of her that could be released under a free license.
Agreed, hence our restriction to historical images.
Think about where we will be 10 years from now. Will we have a large and free encyclopedia with tons of non-free images? Or will we have a large and free encyclopedia with a massive collection of free images? How can we get to where we want to be?
Only using fair use images that are not attainable under the GFDL invalidates this argument, because if we don't allow fair use images for these circumstances there won't be any image depicting these events. (Eg. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tianasquare.jpg) Or do you really think that this should be depicted as a sketch? That would seem farcical to me.
I think that the answer lies in not using non-free licenses or excessive "fair use" exemptions as a crutch. That crutch will prevent us from ever getting to where we want to go.
It is not a crutch for historical images; for others I agree
Best, Sascha Noyes