Bryce, no doubt, I would be miffed if I were you. I share your confusion, too. I had no idea that it was such a small operation (remember, I'm not a programmer, so you must explain things simply and clearly to me, if you want me to understand). I assure you that there is absolutely no *resistance* to the request--unless inertia counts as resistance...
Nupedia isn't making any money either. In fact, Wikipedia is much closer to the point where it might (somehow) make money for Bomis (and therefore, potentially, for anyone else who wants to use the content for profit).
Anyway, remember, Wikipedia, like Nupedia, is a volunteer project--so it's not surprising (though regrettable) that essential features like this should be rooted-for and planned by volunteers. Really, we should have done this long ago.
On the other hand, long ago, we didn't really know that the project would be so successful so quickly, that this would be so important and useful so soon!
Larry
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryce Harrington" bryce@neptune.net To: wikipedia-l@nupedia.com Cc: jasonr@bomis.com Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 11:29 AM Subject: Re: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia teamwork
On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 sanger1@nupedia.com wrote:
... but, well--our programmers are very busy with projects that actually make money. :-/
(And the rest of us programmers are not?)
Wikipedia gains nupedia a good deal of attention. You also have
said
that there may be articles which can go into nupedia. I further
imagine
you will find other ways to profit off wikipedia more directly; I
know
you have expended thought in this area.
The reason many people got involved (at the very least, *me*) was
the
willingness to hold the content under the GFDL. As I see it, what
folks
are asking is simply to deliver on the promises made at the outset,
and
frankly it's rather frightening to encounter any resistance to
requests
like these. (Like a car manufacturer refusing to do warranty work because their employees are busy making new sales.)
This is NOT going to take anyone more than maybe an hour to do. It isn't really even programming, per se; any unix sysadmin should be comfortable crontabbing tarballs of a website. And it IS tied up
with
being able to continue making money; call it a marketing or legal requirement if nothing else.
Anyway, I'm a little miffed - you said your programmers were too
busy,
and that you'd appreciate it if someone would supply code to do
it. I
responded with some code that would do the minimum needed to comply (just change the paths). I was anticipating a thank you, but
instead
"It does no good to post it here"? Well, call me confused. ;-)
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On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 sanger1@nupedia.com wrote:
Bryce, no doubt, I would be miffed if I were you. I share your confusion, too. I had no idea that it was such a small operation (remember, I'm not a programmer, so you must explain things simply and clearly to me, if you want me to understand). I assure you that there is absolutely no *resistance* to the request--unless inertia counts as resistance...
Okay, thanks. Good to hear.
Nupedia isn't making any money either. In fact, Wikipedia is much closer to the point where it might (somehow) make money for Bomis (and therefore, potentially, for anyone else who wants to use the content for profit).
Isn't that ironic? ;-) (And cool too)
Here is my philosophy on this: Wikipedia, when it is far enough along to actually be used as our community wishes it to be, will require stable, supported, reliable hardware and a decent bandwidth. These things are not free. Thus it is in wikipedia's best interest that it at least make enough $$ to break even, and maybe even a little better to give a reward to the folks who have to deal with annoying users like me. ;-)
(The caveat being, as long as the pursuit of money does not impinge on the freedom of the community, as it has in so many other areas so often in the past. But you know this.)
Anyway, remember, Wikipedia, like Nupedia, is a volunteer project--so it's not surprising (though regrettable) that essential features like this should be rooted-for and planned by volunteers. Really, we should have done this long ago.
*Nod* Providing tarballs of the site is a first step towards opening it to further volunteer participation.
In order for volunteer programmers to do their "thang", they often like to snag the whole potato and put a copy of it on their computer so they can poke and prod, test and break, and gnaw and digest. And plus it's safer for you to have them do this than allow them a logon to your webserver to muck about on the live site. ;-)
Now, I'm not saying programmers *will* jump in and help by having this available, but just that they *can't* (practically) without it. (They could still get usemodwiki and mock up a new site and play, but what fun is that?)
(FWIW, the step after this would be to set up CVS for the cgi's and tools people will be writing specifically for wikipedia that wouldn't be integrated into usemodwiki directly.)
On the other hand, long ago, we didn't really know that the project would be so successful so quickly, that this would be so important and useful so soon!
Yes it's amazed me at its success too!
I had originally been involved with Gnupedia, but recognized that wikipedia had "something" (or a set of somethings) that would make it more successful, sooner, and came here. Still, I was blown away to learn that other sites are now using wikipedia as a legit encyclopdia! :-)
Bryce
P.S. I misspelled Bomis as Bromis in my previous email... apologies.
On 15-08-2001, Bryce Harrington wrote thusly :
On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 sanger1@nupedia.com wrote:
First. I am glad that I stirred something up that has brought positive results.
Bryce, no doubt, I would be miffed if I were you. I share your confusion, too. I had no idea that it was such a small operation (remember, I'm not a programmer, so you must explain things simply and clearly to me, if you want me to understand). I assure you that there is absolutely no *resistance* to the request--unless inertia counts as resistance...
Okay, thanks. Good to hear.
Nupedia isn't making any money either. In fact, Wikipedia is much closer to the point where it might (somehow) make money for Bomis (and therefore, potentially, for anyone else who wants to use the content for profit).
It is a little confusing. The FSF started Gnupedia and then they gave up and joined Nupedia. Maybe if there is a commercial problem with the expansion, bandwidth and maintainace we should either : * move back to the FSF * or start Wikipedia2 one way or the other
Isn't that ironic? ;-) (And cool too) Here is my philosophy on this: Wikipedia, when it is far enough along to actually be used as our community wishes it to be, will require stable, supported, reliable hardware and a decent bandwidth. These things are not free. Thus it is in wikipedia's best interest that it at least make enough $$ to break even, and maybe even a little better to give a reward to the folks who have to deal with annoying users like me. ;-) (The caveat being, as long as the pursuit of money does not impinge on the freedom of the community, as it has in so many other areas so often in the past. But you know this.)
Anyway, remember, Wikipedia, like Nupedia, is a volunteer project--so it's not surprising (though regrettable) that essential features like this should be rooted-for and planned by volunteers. Really, we should have done this long ago.
see above
*Nod* Providing tarballs of the site is a first step towards opening it to further volunteer participation.
In order for volunteer programmers to do their "thang", they often like to snag the whole potato and put a copy of it on their computer so they can poke and prod, test and break, and gnaw and digest. And plus it's safer for you to have them do this than allow them a logon to your webserver to muck about on the live site. ;-) Now, I'm not saying programmers *will* jump in and help by having this available, but just that they *can't* (practically) without it. (They could still get usemodwiki and mock up a new site and play, but what fun is that?) (FWIW, the step after this would be to set up CVS for the cgi's and tools people will be writing specifically for wikipedia that wouldn't be integrated into usemodwiki directly.)
On the other hand, long ago, we didn't really know that the project would be so successful so quickly, that this would be so important and useful so soon!
Yes it's amazed me at its success too! I had originally been involved with Gnupedia, but recognized that wikipedia had "something" (or a set of somethings) that would make it more successful, sooner, and came here. Still, I was blown away to learn that other sites are now using wikipedia as a legit encyclopdia! :-)
I agree with Bryce. I will explain my view in another post.
Regards, kpj.
On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Krzysztof P. Jasiutowicz wrote:
Nupedia isn't making any money either. In fact, Wikipedia is much closer to the point where it might (somehow) make money for Bomis (and therefore, potentially, for anyone else who wants to use the content for profit).
It is a little confusing. The FSF started Gnupedia and then they gave up and joined Nupedia. Maybe if there is a commercial problem with the expansion, bandwidth and maintainace we should either :
- move back to the FSF
- or start Wikipedia2 one way or the other
*Nod* Obviously what we don't want is a fork, nor to offend Bomis (well, not much *grin*). My guess is that Bomis has things WELL under control in the backup department and that they may never have significant financial or maintenance problems.
But, if we're just talking extreme contingency here ("What if Bomis were hit by a tonado"), it might be a good idea to have an alternate organization able to fill in until Bomis gets back on their feet. I'm not sure the FSF is the best choice; they're awfully busy with other matters. One organization that springs to mind is SEUL - Simple End User Linux - who are also hosted out of MIT. Their focus is on end user applications, science, and education, and I suspect they'd be willing to serve as a temporary backup. I'm sure there are also other organizations, too.
As long as Bomis continues to provide tarballs periodically, and as long as at least one of us downloads them each time, I think we'll be able to recover from even a bad catastrophy.
Bryce
On 16-08-2001, Bryce Harrington wrote thusly :
On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Krzysztof P. Jasiutowicz wrote:
Nupedia isn't making any money either. In fact, Wikipedia is much closer to the point where it might (somehow) make money for Bomis (and therefore, potentially, for anyone else who wants to use the content for profit).
It is a little confusing. The FSF started Gnupedia and then they gave up and joined Nupedia. Maybe if there is a commercial problem with the expansion, bandwidth and maintainace we should either :
- move back to the FSF
- or start Wikipedia2 one way or the other
*Nod* Obviously what we don't want is a fork, nor to offend Bomis (well, not much *grin*). My guess is that Bomis has things WELL under control in the backup department and that they may never have significant financial or maintenance problems. But, if we're just talking extreme contingency here ("What if Bomis were hit by a tonado"), it might be a good idea to have an alternate organization able to fill in until Bomis gets back on their feet. I'm not sure the FSF is the best choice; they're awfully busy with other matters. One organization that springs to mind is SEUL - Simple End User Linux - who are also hosted out of MIT. Their focus is on end user applications, science, and education, and I suspect they'd be willing to serve as a temporary backup. I'm sure there are also other organizations, too. As long as Bomis continues to provide tarballs periodically, and as long as at least one of us downloads them each time, I think we'll be able to recover from even a bad catastrophy.
Please don't take me wrong I have nothing against Bomis. I think they so far have been serving Wikipedia reasonably well. But if something hampers the growth or endangers the freedom... Regards, kpj.
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