Hello,
The recent conversion to the no-subpage policy has created a problem with editing those pages that describe whole independent universes. This first came to my mind in relation to [[Middle Earth]], but it is also relevant to pages such as [[Star Wars]], [[Star Trek]] and possibly other pages.
Since this involves a policy issue as well as a technical one, I wanted to discuss it in Wikipedia-L before I (or someone else) began to write lengthy patches.
The problem is in the following: it is extremely inconvenient (as a policy) to write "[[Middle Earth/Elrond|Elrond]] was the lord of [[Middle Earth/Rivendell|Rivendell]]" than it is to write "[[Elrond]] was the lord of [[Rivendell]]"
I could think of several solutions to this problem: * Remove the [[Middle Earth/]] part (e.g. [[Elrond]] instead of [[Middle Earth/Elrond]]. But this would not only add fictional content to the generally real-world encyclopedia but also confuse the readers (think about [[USS Enterprise]]!) * Creating a new namespace (e.g. [[Middle Earth:Elrond]]). But that would not automatically solve the linking problem, and would generally contradict the way namespaces are used now (the division being functional and not content-oriented). * Creating a new Middle Earth wiki. Although it would solve most of the problems above, that would require too much effort and make linking with the "main" Wikipedia more difficult.
The solution which I would personally prefer is to add another addressing mode to the Wiki links.For example, we could add a #base directive after which all links except escaped ones would receive a certain prefix. For example:
#base [[Middle Earth/]] [[!JRR Tolkien]] wrote that [[Elrond]] was the lord of Rivendell.
The link with the prefixing "!" would not be affected. However after the #base directive, [[Elrond]] will automatically become [[Middle Earth/Elrond]].
What do you think about it? Could this be implemented or there's another (easier) solution?
Sincerely yours, Uri Yanover
As a first pass, I think this is a good solution. Certainly, we should work to solve your problem, which is a valid problem.
Uri Yanover wrote:
I could think of several solutions to this problem:
- Remove the [[Middle Earth/]] part (e.g. [[Elrond]] instead of [[Middle Earth/Elrond]]. But this would not only add fictional content to the generally real-world encyclopedia but also confuse the readers (think about [[USS Enterprise]]!)
Well, is the content _fictional_? Or it is real-world content about a _fictional universe_? There's a subtle difference. If the content was fictional, it wouldn't belong in Wikipedia in the first place. But if it is highly detailed encyclopedic information about a fictional universe, then it does belong. I think it does belong.
- Creating a new namespace (e.g. [[Middle Earth:Elrond]]). But that would not automatically solve the linking problem, and would generally contradict the way namespaces are used now (the division being functional and not content-oriented).
Right! I'd be very much opposed to this. The namespace divisions should be functional, not content-oriented, unless we have an EXTREMELY compelling reason.
The primary reaso for the namespace division was to avoid collision between user nicknames and real articles.
- Creating a new Middle Earth wiki. Although it would solve most of the problems above, that would require too much effort and make linking with the "main" Wikipedia more difficult.
I think a Middle Earth wiki would be neat, but I think this wouldn't really solve the real problem here. Because the same problem will crop up in many other areas, I think.
I also think that a Middle Earth wiki could and probably should be fairly different from Wikipedia content about Middle Earth. For example, a Middle Earth wiki would probably want to make room for fan fiction.
I'd be happy to host such a
The solution which I would personally prefer is to add another addressing mode to the Wiki links.For example, we could add a #base directive after which all links except escaped ones would receive a certain prefix. For example:
#base [[Middle Earth/]] [[!JRR Tolkien]] wrote that [[Elrond]] was the lord of Rivendell.
The link with the prefixing "!" would not be affected. However after the #base directive, [[Elrond]] will automatically become [[Middle Earth/Elrond]].
What do you think about it? Could this be implemented or there's another (easier) solution?
I think that after we brainstorm, there may be some modifications to your proposal, but certainly something in this neighborhood might make sense.
--Jimbo
We had a rather lengthy discussion about the subpages, which ended in Larry deciding to get rid of them. I don't suppose he would be happy with subpages returning from the grave, even if they are marked with "#" instead of "/". And if I'd implement such a thing, he would be quite annoyed with me (I picture the horseman from "Sleepy Hollow";)
I guess we'll have to get used to the copy&paste keyboard shortcuts...
Magnus
-----Original Message----- From: wikipedia-l-admin@nupedia.com [mailto:wikipedia-l-admin@nupedia.com]On Behalf Of Jimmy Wales Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 5:10 PM To: wikipedia-l@nupedia.com Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] No-subpage policy makes editing [[Middle Earth]] difficult
As a first pass, I think this is a good solution. Certainly, we should work to solve your problem, which is a valid problem.
Uri Yanover wrote:
I could think of several solutions to this problem:
- Remove the [[Middle Earth/]] part (e.g. [[Elrond]] instead of [[Middle Earth/Elrond]]. But this would not only add fictional content to the generally real-world encyclopedia but also confuse the readers (think about [[USS Enterprise]]!)
Well, is the content _fictional_? Or it is real-world content about a _fictional universe_? There's a subtle difference. If the content was fictional, it wouldn't belong in Wikipedia in the first place. But if it is highly detailed encyclopedic information about a fictional universe, then it does belong. I think it does belong.
- Creating a new namespace (e.g. [[Middle Earth:Elrond]]). But that would not automatically solve the linking problem, and would generally contradict the way namespaces are used now (the division being functional and not content-oriented).
Right! I'd be very much opposed to this. The namespace divisions should be functional, not content-oriented, unless we have an EXTREMELY compelling reason.
The primary reaso for the namespace division was to avoid collision between user nicknames and real articles.
- Creating a new Middle Earth wiki. Although it would solve most of the problems above, that would require too much effort and make linking with the "main" Wikipedia more difficult.
I think a Middle Earth wiki would be neat, but I think this wouldn't really solve the real problem here. Because the same problem will crop up in many other areas, I think.
I also think that a Middle Earth wiki could and probably should be fairly different from Wikipedia content about Middle Earth. For example, a Middle Earth wiki would probably want to make room for fan fiction.
I'd be happy to host such a
The solution which I would personally prefer is to add another addressing mode to the Wiki links.For example, we could add a #base directive after which all links except escaped ones would receive a certain prefix. For example:
#base [[Middle Earth/]] [[!JRR Tolkien]] wrote that [[Elrond]] was the lord of Rivendell.
The link with the prefixing "!" would not be affected. However after the #base directive, [[Elrond]] will automatically become [[Middle Earth/Elrond]].
What do you think about it? Could this be implemented or there's another (easier) solution?
I think that after we brainstorm, there may be some modifications to your proposal, but certainly something in this neighborhood might make sense.
--Jimbo [Wikipedia-l] To manage your subscription to this list, please go here: http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
We had a rather lengthy discussion about the subpages, which ended in
Larry
deciding to get rid of them.
Note however, that Larry himself had stated that self-contained universes are the only subject where subpaging _does_ make sense to him. See http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki.phtml?title=Faramir
I don't suppose he would be happy with subpages eturning from the grave, even if they are marked with "#" instead of "/".
I don't propose # instead of "/", I'm proposing a limited add-prefix function (which could repair some of the disadvantages of the lack of subpages).
And if I'd implement such a thing, he would be quite annoyed with me (I picture the horseman from "Sleepy Hollow";)
Well, don't lose your head over the subject :-)
I guess we'll have to get used to the copy&paste keyboard shortcuts...
That isn't the solution I'd like to see. Personally I'd favor some sort of an additional addressing mode. Anyway, Wikipedia as a means of communications should somehow express the concept that Middle Earth is an enclosed universe of its own (and make editing easier as an added value).
Sincerely yours, Uri Yanover
Subpages or not, it would be useful to be able have the slash (/) as part of the article name, e.g. "TCP/IP", "IBM System/360", and "OS/2", where the slash is part of the proper noun.
First let me apologize if this is not appropriate because I've only recently subscribed again to this list and haven't thoroughly checked if this was discussed before.
I thought that the intention of namespaces was to disambiguate homonyms such as Nirvana (Music and Mythology), function (Mathematics and Programming Languages), ring (Mathematics and Common use) et cetera. But now it seems that they are only used to distinguish between pages with different types of functions. I personally was planning to write some articles on database normalization and there we have also a lot of terms (relation, key, dependency, normal form) that have a very specific meaning there. If I now see the problems that Uri Yanover mentions, then it seems to me that these problems are very similar to those in Mathematics and Computer science (and other fantasy worlds, :-)) and could also be solved by a general user-definable hierarchical name space implementation. Let me make a suggestion:
1. With every page a name space of the same name is associated. So with the page "Middle_earth" there would be a name space "Middle_earth:" and with the the page "Database_theory" there would be a name space "Database_theory:".
2. A page name would consist of (an optional) namespace, e.g., "relational_model:", and the basic page name, e.g., "first_normal_form". The full page name would in this case be "relational_model:first_normal_form" or for example "Middle_earth:Elrond". Since a name space corresponds with a page name, a name space itself can also be qualified with another name space, so you might have "Computer_science:Database_theory:Relational_model:First_normal_form". (I don't think the hierarchy will be that deep in practice, but you get the point.)
3. The looking up/linking of page names that are not qualified with a namespace is done by walking up to the root of the tree of name spaces. So a link on the page for "first_normal_form" is first looked for in the name space "First_normal_form:", then consecutively in "Relational_model:", "Database_theory:", "Computer_science:" and finally the global name space ":"". For Uri's example this would mean that the look-up of "Elrond" would start in the name space "Middle_earth:" if it appeared on the page "Middle_earth".
4. If a page name is qualified then the look-up starts at the given name space. So "Computer_science:relation" is looked up first in the name space "Computer_science" even if it appears on a page with name space "Database_theory".
5. If a page name belongs to a certain name space then it also belongs to the name spaces higher up the name space hierarchy unless a conflict arises.
6. The looking up only happens when the page is submitted. After that the unqalified page name is replaced with a fully qualified page name. That prevents unneccesary processing and avoids problems with page names becoming ambiguous because a new page with the same name is added in a sibling name space.
7. If a page name is not found then a "creation link" is created and its namespace is either the name space that was specified (if it exists) and if no name space is specified then it is the local space name, i.e., the name space of the page that the link is on. If the specified name space does not exist already then an error is reported and no "creation link" is created.
8. Every page is presented with somewhere on the screen a link to the page corresponding to its namespace.
That is about all. I know this looks very much like subpages on steroids (Larry is probably foaming at the mouth right now :-)) and in some sense it is, but I really think we need user-definable hierarchies of name spaces and I don't see why we cannot trust the self-organization of Wikipedians on this. I also realize that this is not easy to implement, to put it mildly, but if you think it is a good idea then I would probably feel morally obliged to help build it. I have a little PHP experience and have once written patches for PhpWiki.
Btw. note how elegantly Talk-pages fit into this scheme; you just add a link [[Talk]]. No further special arrangements necessary. On the down-side the user now has the indicate explicitly that a page has to be put in the highest name space by writing for example [[:Wikipedia_talk]] where ":" represents the root name space.
Kind regards,
-- Jan Hidders
Sorry, two remarks I forgot to make.
From: "Jan Hidders" hidders@uia.ua.ac.be
That is about all. I know this looks very much like subpages on steroids (Larry is probably foaming at the mouth right now :-)) and in some sense
it
is, but I really think we need user-definable hierarchies of name spaces
and
I don't see why we cannot trust the self-organization of Wikipedians on this.
Note that an important difference with sub-pages is that a name-space inherits all the page names from it sub-name-spaces that are unambiguous.
Btw. note how elegantly Talk-pages fit into this scheme; you just add a
link
[[Talk]]. No further special arrangements necessary. On the down-side the user now has the indicate explicitly that a page has to be put in the highest name space by writing for example [[:Wikipedia_talk]] where ":" represents the root name space.
For backwards compatability you can also reverse this of course, i.e., [[:blah]] becomes local and [[blah]] global. Hmmm, sounds familiar. ... :-)
-- Jan Hidders
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