Larry, I have to apologize --
I've been so wrapped up trying to keep my course on track that I didn't respond at all to your letter. I was frankly just glad you were still going to be around! I'll help any way I can.
Also, (since I'm hoping lots of people are still reading this) we still have NO ACCEPTABLE INFORMATION on how some of the programming changes affect day to day use. I've offered to write something up -- given an explanation, but have been repeatedly ignored or blown off (partially because I seem to have offended some delicate programmer sensibilities by saying that they were acting exactly like programmers -- good at what they do, but less interested in making it clear to the user through documentation).
Whether or not people want to hear it, the new site is not all that user-friendly as far as explaining subpages and namespaces goes (or how to report bugs, for that matter -- why isn't there a bug report link?). People are still trying to create /Talk pages and /whatever subpages. All we need is a carefully placed announcement or two -- I suggest adding a special page (changes to the system) and links on the home page, on how to edit a page, and on recent changes. I know that Lars added some stuff on namespaces under the article, but what is needed is a primer -- something that says...where one did x in the old version, please do y in the new. I'd do this myself, but am pretty sure I can't create a special page (guessing it's an admin thing) and I'm still not clear on it. It appears that, instead of subpages, we should be creating link pages (maybe) and that each page is generated with an associated talk page.
JHK -- feeling very resentful that no one actually seems to think this is worth their time.
Message: 3 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:45:37 -0800 (PST) From: Larry Sanger lsanger@nupedia.com To: wikipedia-l@nupedia.com cc: intlwiki-l@nupedia.com Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Plea for help Reply-To: wikipedia-l@nupedia.com
This is an unusual plea for help. It's possible I'm going out of my mind--I mean, I guess I don't think so, but sometimes it seems like it. :-)
Occasionally in the past, controversy has erupted that has occupied unfortunately large amounts of my time. Sometimes the controversy is definitely worth the time, but just as often it seems it isn't, not at all. Most recently, in the wake of my announcement that I am no longer a paid employee, that I will still be working though as a volunteer, and that we might (if we can) start selling ads and soliciting donations to help pay for me once again, apparently some people reacted not by saying, very kindly, "Oh, poor Larry, whatever will we do without him?" but instead, "Huh? There was a paid employee? And they might sell ads?! Someone was making money?! This must be a greedy capitalist exploitative project. This shouldn't be! We've got to do something about it!"
Well, I and sometimes Jimbo then spend a lot of time putting out fires. In the present case, we inform the newcomers that, yes, I did do a few useful things for the projects oh maybe occasionally; yes, the idea of fees for viewing content is absolutely ludicrous and has never been considered; yes, we *really, really are* committed to making and keeping the content always completely free forever; and yes, we have been considering making a nonprofit foundation for Wikipedia and Nupedia for a long time now; it's mainly a matter of getting enough time to actually start us formally down the road. (We can start with a "OK now, we're really going to do it, it's official, we're asking for pro bono legal help to set it up" kind of announcement, but we don't want to do that until we have the time to follow through properly. "We" in this case mainly means Jimbo.)
I think some people just sit back and enjoy the show, and figure that I can hold my own well enough.
Well, er, not exactly. I can, usually, if I spend the time. But I don't have the time anymore. I literally *don't have the time* for this kind of nonsense. I've spent, I don't know, three hours so far today working on various Wikipedia stuff, and it's not even 1 PM yet. I should instead have been, er, looking for a job, or a lot of other things my wife wants me to do. :-)
So, please, critics, have mercy--be gentle--and, non-critics, if you support my cause and think you can supply the correct response to an e-mail that, you can predict, I will want to have answered, please do that. Don't hold back waiting for me to do it. I'll be very grateful.
Larry
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Julie Hofmann Kemp wrote:
(partially because I seem to have offended some delicate programmer sensibilities by saying that they were acting exactly like programmers -- good at what they do, but less interested in making it clear to the user through documentation).
Oh, I'm not offended by that -- it's accurate. :-)
Whether or not people want to hear it, the new site is not all that user-friendly as far as explaining subpages and namespaces goes (or how to report bugs, for that matter -- why isn't there a bug report link?). People are still trying to create /Talk pages and /whatever subpages. All we need is a carefully placed announcement or two -- I suggest adding a special page (changes to the system) and links on the home page, on how to edit a page, and on recent changes. I know that Lars added some stuff on namespaces under the article, but what is needed is a primer -- something that says...where one did x in the old version, please do y in the new. I'd do this myself, but am pretty sure I can't create a special page (guessing it's an admin thing) and I'm still not clear on it. It appears that, instead of subpages, we should be creating link pages (maybe) and that each page is generated with an associated talk page.
I think this is a great idea. In fact, I think that we should link to a "changes to the system" page directly from the edit page. "Need help with the new system? Click here for a few short tips."
--Jimbo
Also, (since I'm hoping lots of people are still reading this) we still have NO ACCEPTABLE INFORMATION on how some of the programming changes affect day to day use. I've offered to write something up -- given an explanation, but have been repeatedly ignored or blown off (partially because I seem to have offended some delicate programmer sensibilities by saying that they were acting exactly like programmers -- good at what they do, but less interested in making it clear to the user through documentation).
Yeah, we were so hurt that we immediately started a FAQ page, based on the questions you raised. I lost track of it, though, as I thought you'd expand it as promised.
Whether or not people want to hear it, the new site is not all that user-friendly as far as explaining subpages and namespaces goes (or how to report bugs, for that matter -- why isn't there a bug report link?). People are still trying to create /Talk pages and /whatever subpages. All we need is a carefully placed announcement or two -- I suggest adding a special page (changes to the system) and links on the home page, on how to edit a page, and on recent changes. I know that Lars added some stuff on namespaces under the article, but what is needed is a primer -- something that says...where one did x in the old version, please do y in the new. I'd do this myself, but am pretty sure I can't create a special page (guessing it's an admin thing) and I'm still not clear on it. It appears that, instead of subpages, we should be creating link pages (maybe) and that each page is generated with an associated talk page.
This is explained on the Nwe Functions page, as well as on the FAQ page, and probably at a few other places as well.
JHK -- feeling very resentful that no one actually seems to think this is worth their time.
If the (very real) existing FAQs/manuals are not extensive enough for you (and others), let's try this: * You create a page (best starting with "wikipedia:") where you put all the questions you have, or the questions you think people might have. * You let all of us know where to find it. * The Sensitive Ego Club of Programmers will go there and answer them.
Magnus
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