Thanks for your reply, V. Ivanov!
You probably don't know the history of the language well.
That's right. I didn't mean to cause any other impression. Neither did I want to question the existance of content in Cyrillic in general. I only wanted to point out that the discontentment with the current way Wikipedia handles this issue ought to be taken seriously.
You probably don't know the history of the language well. In fact both Romanian and Moldovans has been Orthodox Christians and used Cyrillic script for several ages.
I knew that the Cyrillic script had been used in Moldova before the Soviet era. I must admit that the fact that it has been used in Romania as well is completely new to me.
By the way, do you know much about the unfree days? They were not totally that "unfree". :) Be more neutral. ;)
Of course I don't know so much about them for I grew up in Western Europe. What I do know is the way officials (not the people in general, of course!) treated us and other tourists during a visit in the Eastern Bloc (I could tell some appalling things but they don't belong here). I also remember how every how each and every letter we sent to friends at other side of the "Iron Curtain" (or that they sent to us) was opened and read by people for whom it was not intended. Or how there was a third person in every phone call. Or how the secret service stole Christmas or birthday gifts we sent to our friends.
But maybe I should have been a little more careful with my wording nevertheless, like your reaction shows.
Cheers,
Arbeo
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Let's admit what Moldavian people from Transnistria use the cyrillic script, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria#2004_census
Transnistrian 2004 census: * Total population (including Tighina): 555.500 * Moldovans: 31.9%
That's 177.204 Moldovans ppl, what are forced to use the Cyrillic alphabet. (forced? see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria#Political_status). But i'm still not sure what they all write in Cyrillic.
Now let's see how many Moldovans use the latin script. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova#Ethnic_composition) According to the 2004 census Moldovans: 76.1% from 3,388,071 ppl. That's 2,578,322 of Moldovans what use latin script in write. And since Moldovian language are the only official language in Moldova, the other 23,9% also must know to speak and write the official language using official script.
So we see: In Transnistria, people what are forced to write the Moldovian language in Cyrillic: 177.204 In Moldova, people what write his language in latin: 2,578,322 (or even more).
So why must 2,578,322 of ppl to see his language in cyrillic on Wikipedia just because of the Transnistrian 177.204 Moldovans what are forced by a internationally unrecognised state maintained by Russian forces(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria) to use cyrillic ?
177.204 vs 2,578,322 (I would dispute that number based on literacy rates, and the fact that some people are literate in Cyrillic but not Latin in the countryside)... I don't see a reason why the approximately 6,4 % of all "Moldovan" speakers should just be ignored. Do you have one?
Yes, they're not the majority. That's why it's a biscriptal portal, and cyrillic is placed _second_
Mark
On 06/12/05, Adrenalin adrenalinup@gmail.com wrote:
Let's admit what Moldavian people from Transnistria use the cyrillic script, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria#2004_census
Transnistrian 2004 census:
- Total population (including Tighina): 555.500
- Moldovans: 31.9%
That's 177.204 Moldovans ppl, what are forced to use the Cyrillic alphabet. (forced? see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria#Political_status). But i'm still not sure what they all write in Cyrillic.
Now let's see how many Moldovans use the latin script. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova#Ethnic_composition) According to the 2004 census Moldovans: 76.1% from 3,388,071 ppl. That's 2,578,322 of Moldovans what use latin script in write. And since Moldovian language are the only official language in Moldova, the other 23,9% also must know to speak and write the official language using official script.
So we see: In Transnistria, people what are forced to write the Moldovian language in Cyrillic: 177.204 In Moldova, people what write his language in latin: 2,578,322 (or even more).
So why must 2,578,322 of ppl to see his language in cyrillic on Wikipedia just because of the Transnistrian 177.204 Moldovans what are forced by a internationally unrecognised state maintained by Russian forces(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria) to use cyrillic ? _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
Dumb question, but is that 555 and a half, or 555,500 (five hundred fifty-five thousand five hundred)? And 177 and two-tenths people, or 177 thousand two-hundred-four?
JR
-----Original Message----- From: wikipedia-l-bounces@Wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Adrenalin Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 5:08 PM To: wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Why MO.wikipedia. - Moldovan,are written in cyrillic ?
Let's admit what Moldavian people from Transnistria use the cyrillic script, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria#2004_census
Transnistrian 2004 census: * Total population (including Tighina): 555.500 * Moldovans: 31.9%
That's 177.204 Moldovans ppl, what are forced to use the Cyrillic alphabet. (forced? see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria#Political_status). But i'm still not sure what they all write in Cyrillic.
Now let's see how many Moldovans use the latin script. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova#Ethnic_composition) According to the 2004 census Moldovans: 76.1% from 3,388,071 ppl. That's 2,578,322 of Moldovans what use latin script in write. And since Moldovian language are the only official language in Moldova, the other 23,9% also must know to speak and write the official language using official script.
So we see: In Transnistria, people what are forced to write the Moldovian language in Cyrillic: 177.204 In Moldova, people what write his language in latin: 2,578,322 (or even more).
So why must 2,578,322 of ppl to see his language in cyrillic on Wikipedia just because of the Transnistrian 177.204 Moldovans what are forced by a internationally unrecognised state maintained by Russian forces(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria) to use cyrillic ? _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On 12/7/05, James R. Johnson modean52@comcast.net wrote:
Dumb question, but is that 555 and a half, or 555,500 (five hundred fifty-five thousand five hundred)? And 177 and two-tenths people, or 177 thousand two-hundred-four?
It's 555,500 (five hundred fifty-five thousand five hundred) and 177,204.
In continental Europe, the decimal comma is used instead of the decimal point, while the separator used is the dot, not the comma. So, one thousand is written 1.000 not 1,000 And 2 and a half euro is written 2,50 not 2.50
That's right. I didn't mean to cause any other impression. Neither did I want to question the existance of content in Cyrillic in general. I only wanted to point out that the discontentment with the current way Wikipedia handles this issue ought to be taken seriously.
Arbeo, your proposal was pretty on-the-spot. I think it reflected well the current situation in Moldova.
You probably don't know the history of the language well. In fact both
Romanian and Moldovans has been Orthodox Christians and used Cyrillic script for several ages.
I knew that the Cyrillic script had been used in Moldova before the Soviet era. I must admit that the fact that it has been used in Romania as well is completely new to me.
A modified version of the Cyrillic script was used in *parts* of present-day Romania until the 1800s. Transylvania never used this script. Wallachia and Moldavia, the other two historical regions, converted to Latin script after this time. So for around 150 years, Romanians have been writing in Latin script only. Outside of historical documents, the Cyrillic script is never seen anywhere in Romanian.
By the way, do you know much about the unfree days? They were not totally that "unfree".
:) Be more neutral. ;)
Of course I don't know so much about them for I grew up in Western Europe. What I do know is the way officials (not the people in general, of course!) treated us and other tourists during a visit in the Eastern Bloc (I could tell some appalling things but they don't belong here). I also remember how every how each and every letter we sent to friends at other side of the "Iron Curtain" (or that they sent to us) was opened and read by people for whom it was not intended. Or how there was a third person in every phone call. Or how the secret service stole Christmas or birthday gifts we sent to our friends.
The situation was pretty bad, I can tell you. I've heard of how Romania was before 1989, I don't know about Moldova, but from studying history, the Soviet Union was very unfree, and Moldova was further unfree because it went through an even more rigorous policy of "de-Romanianisation" and Russification. Many Russians, and Moldovenists (people that support a Moldovan ethnicity separate of Romanian) will tell you that "Moldovans wanted self-determination from Romania, they were never forced by the 'liberating' Soviet Union". Well, that's just propaganda.
On 06/12/05, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) rowikipedia@gmail.com wrote:
Moldovan ethnicity separate of Romanian) will tell you that "Moldovans wanted self-determination from Romania, they were never forced by the 'liberating' Soviet Union". Well, that's just propaganda.
One thing I've heard from Romanians is that all Moldovenists are actually Russians. That's certainly not true. The Moldovenist movement is a movement with some support in the intellectual community but admittedly only a minority, currently the trend in the Moldovan intellectual community is to favour closer cultural ties with Romania in a romanticist sort of way (referring to Romanians as "our brothers", and saying that union with Romania "is our destiny", and other things like that), but certainly the Moldovenist movement has its supporters in academia.
And most Moldovenists are not Russian or Ukrainian. While Russo-Moldovans and, to a lesser extent, Ukraino-Moldovans do seem to believe in the concept of a separate Moldovan identity from Romania at a much higher rate than do Moldovans, it's undeniable that some of the most fervent supporters of the Moldovenist ideas are infact ethnically Moldovan (don't call them Romanian because that will make them mad).
The most hysterically extreme Moldovenist publication in the linguistic arena in the last few years is undeniably Vasile Stati's "Dictsionar Moldovenesc-Romynesc". And he speaks in the preface about "our Moldovan language" because it is, in fact, his native language.
But the vast majority of supporters of the Moldovenist hypotheses are actually rural peasants, from what I heard. Even though their speech is much closer to Romanians than the speech of cities, the country bumpkins are apparently convinced that they are Moldovans and their language, Moldovan.
And sure, it was impossible to support the theory of Moldovan and Romanian ethnic unity until glasnost and perestroica.
Moldovenists might feel in the historical perspective that they were liberated from Romania, but Moldovans who disagree with the Moldovenist perspsective will tell you the opposite usually. So who is right? I think it depends. Not everybody was happy when Bessarabia united with Romania despite what some people will tell you -- there really were those people who at the time supported continued independence -- and it's conceivable that they were happy when their nation was annexed back to Russia. But the people who were happy at uniting with Romania certainly felt the opposite.
Mark
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
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