This is in relation to a concern a user brought to my attention on en.wikipedia.org, and which I posted a note on Jimmy Wale's talk page about. I was instructed that meta might deal with what I describe, and I basically followed the links to mailing lists and to here.
Essentially, to distill this, a user on the hebrew wikipedia, Itay, was blocked from editing his wikipedia over bad blood between him and one of the admins (essentially he created a list where he detailed what he believed were one admin's wrongful actions. It was deleted and he was subsequently blocked.) Upon appealing to other admins, filing and RfC, which was removed, filing another and another over various "errors" in the filing process, and appealing directly to the essential "head" of he.wiki, he went from being blocked for a week to being permanently banned. I have corresponded with Itay on numerous occasions and he has links to all the relevant info, and I believe he has a strong case that the administrators, or at least four of them, are acting in a totalitarian and outrightly frightening way to block and remove edits they deem harmful. Even more worrisome is that there is no way to appeal to have these admins reviewed on he.wiki. I have received other emails from other users on he.wiki expressing their similar concern, quote, "The Hebrew Wikipedia is rotten from the top down. Plenty of wikipedians who could've contributed a lot to he have been banned or scared off for either no reason or very minor reasons." Or, to take part of a run-on sentence, "Several admins have even clearly stated that "some users are more equal than others" (hinting at admins > registered users > anonymous users). It's impossible to have a vote within the community to revoke the admins' rights as people who have opposed them have either been banned or aren't going to vote against them because if they do and the rights aren't revoked they'll be picked on".
Frankly, I'm stumped as to where to turn. This went from a simple AMA request to a whirlwind of tossabouts. What I am sure I need is a hebrew/english ambassador who's nuetral in this conflict, who I can send the evidence to confrim (m Hebrew is pretty basic); I also have trascriptions for anyone interested. I just have no idea what to do now... I'm appealing to anyone who has an idea of what my action should now be.
Sincerily, David Fuchs
David Fuchs wrote:
It's impossible to have a vote within the community to revoke the admins' rights as people who have opposed them have either been banned or aren't going to vote against them because if they do and the rights aren't revoked they'll be picked on".
If there's really such problem about being incapable to held a democratic vote, i'm sure a special page to anonymous voting could be arranged, like the board voting. (Arbitred by a neutral party)
Hi!
What I am sure I need is a hebrew/english ambassador who's nuetral in this conflict,
Yes, I'd look for that, too. It may be wise not to make too detailed descriptions of the related events in the public lists (as this one). This seems to be pretty much of an ego war, so the less people will be exposed as individuals, the higher your chanches to find a decent compromise. It may help you if you for people who are active on both versions and locate a person who as good relational capabilities. BTW... wouldn't it be nice to have a public list of people having such multiple presences?
Pls, just do not start a HE-HE conflict :)))))))) I mean, I'll miss the MO-RO soap opera, but that doesn't mean I'm ready for "release next" :)))))
Bèrto ‘d Sèra Personagi dl’ann 2006 për l’arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojàotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
You're lucky the RU-RU-SIB soap opera played out mostly on Meta. That was even more dramatic than the RO-MO conflict, if that is at all possible.
On 31/01/07, Berto 'd Sera albertoserra@ukr.net wrote:
Hi!
What I am sure I need is a hebrew/english ambassador who's nuetral in this conflict,
Yes, I'd look for that, too. It may be wise not to make too detailed descriptions of the related events in the public lists (as this one). This seems to be pretty much of an ego war, so the less people will be exposed as individuals, the higher your chanches to find a decent compromise. It may help you if you for people who are active on both versions and locate a person who as good relational capabilities. BTW... wouldn't it be nice to have a public list of people having such multiple presences?
Pls, just do not start a HE-HE conflict :)))))))) I mean, I'll miss the MO-RO soap opera, but that doesn't mean I'm ready for "release next" :)))))
Bèrto 'd Sèra Personagi dl'ann 2006 për l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojàotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hi Mark,
I will not comment on Ukr/Ru/Ru-sib. I will rather act in silence and take my time to make sure that violations are prosecuted as such. It's my close geographical neighborhood and I do care for places and people I love :) I'm from the Alps, we are slooow but extremely methodical.
More in general, we all have political ideas/illusions/dreams/principles etc. It's a human right to have them. But there are fields in which they are NOT acceptable as a source for decision making. Anyone being a cop cannot serve a guy better than another because they share a religious or political belief. Same is for doctors, for language operators, soldiers, encyclopedia editors, government officers, etc.
Whenever you deal with something that encompasses a whole society as such, politics are OFFLIMITS. Failure to understand this means you deal with a dictatorship. It means that nothing changed. People only adapted their definition of "enemy of the people" to the current Czar. Now they deport communists, Russians and Germans, and that's as far as the "democratic novelty" goes. Sorry, I ain't gonna take it.
They are free to do so in reality if they wish, but they are not free to do it within the WMF, because there is a thing called "pillars". Pillars are the reason why people donate money, those very money that pay for everybody's servers and bandwidth. Failure to respect the pillars is FRAUD TO DONORS. This must be extremely clear.
BTW, how many editions did even bother translating those damn pillars?? How many non-english wikipedians EVEN JUST KNOW that they exist? It's hundreds of thousands of articles, each of which may happily say that there never was any holocaust, that the earth is flat, that candidate Y never made any fraud and candidate G is the sole responsible for everything from Adam and Eve to climate warming, or that Marlon Brando is the Roman Pope...
So what? Who will check anyway? Us stupid westerners don't read Cyrillic, right? Nope guys, some of us morons actually do... It's not a matter of whether one's opinions are right or wrong; it's just that THIS IS NO PLACE FOR NOBODY'S POLITICAL DELIRIUM! Full stop.
Bèrto d Sèra Personagi dlann 2006 për larvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojàotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
Well, I agree with most of this, but I'm not sure if it's intended to be in response to my previous post.
And no, I think that the vast majority of Wikipedians, of any language, are unaware of the pillars.
Mark
On 01/02/07, Berto 'd Sera albertoserra@ukr.net wrote:
Hi Mark,
I will not comment on Ukr/Ru/Ru-sib. I will rather act in silence and take my time to make sure that violations are prosecuted as such. It's my close geographical neighborhood and I do care for places and people I love :) I'm from the Alps, we are slooow but extremely methodical.
More in general, we all have political ideas/illusions/dreams/principles etc. It's a human right to have them. But there are fields in which they are NOT acceptable as a source for decision making. Anyone being a cop cannot serve a guy better than another because they share a religious or political belief. Same is for doctors, for language operators, soldiers, encyclopedia editors, government officers, etc.
Whenever you deal with something that encompasses a whole society as such, politics are OFFLIMITS. Failure to understand this means you deal with a dictatorship. It means that nothing changed. People only adapted their definition of "enemy of the people" to the current Czar. Now they deport communists, Russians and Germans, and that's as far as the "democratic novelty" goes. Sorry, I ain't gonna take it.
They are free to do so in reality if they wish, but they are not free to do it within the WMF, because there is a thing called "pillars". Pillars are the reason why people donate money, those very money that pay for everybody's servers and bandwidth. Failure to respect the pillars is FRAUD TO DONORS. This must be extremely clear.
BTW, how many editions did even bother translating those damn pillars?? How many non-english wikipedians EVEN JUST KNOW that they exist? It's hundreds of thousands of articles, each of which may happily say that there never was any holocaust, that the earth is flat, that candidate Y never made any fraud and candidate G is the sole responsible for everything from Adam and Eve to climate warming, or that Marlon Brando is the Roman Pope...
So what? Who will check anyway? Us stupid westerners don't read Cyrillic, right? Nope guys, some of us morons actually do... It's not a matter of whether one's opinions are right or wrong; it's just that THIS IS NO PLACE FOR NOBODY'S POLITICAL DELIRIUM! Full stop.
Bèrto 'd Sèra Personagi dl'ann 2006 për l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojàotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hoi!
Well, I agree with most of this, but I'm not sure if it's intended to be in response to my previous post.
Let's call it an indirect comment to the ukr-ru-ru_sib affair :) and more generally to many an Eastern European wiki :)
Not all of them, obviously. Just to name two of them, I have the strong impression that both Polish and Russian wikies are on a different level. They work as real encyclopedias, not just as agit-prop points.
I think that the vast majority of Wikipedians, of any language, are unaware of the pillars.
That's one of our worst problems. Punishing those who violate the pillars may be a temporary solution, but in the end the only good move is to put in a winning position those who comply. Impositions may frighten "bad people" for a couple of days; convenience always captures faithful attention.
Bèrto d Sèra Personagi dlann 2006 për larvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojàotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
Yeah, of all the Wikis where I have heard of seemingly genuine admin problems (that is, not just random users complaining about admins, but things like people getting deadminned and banned for their opinions and then the banning of anyone who protests), it seems most of them are Eastern European.
Every time something like that came up on Meta:Requests for Permissions, the steward response was always something like "solve your problem internally", which has always worried me.
On 02/02/07, Berto 'd Sera albertoserra@ukr.net wrote:
Hoi!
Well, I agree with most of this, but I'm not sure if it's intended to be in response to my previous post.
Let's call it an indirect comment to the ukr-ru-ru_sib affair :) and more generally to many an Eastern European wiki :)
Not all of them, obviously. Just to name two of them, I have the strong impression that both Polish and Russian wikies are on a different level. They work as real encyclopedias, not just as agit-prop points.
I think that the vast majority of Wikipedians, of any language, are unaware of the pillars.
That's one of our worst problems. Punishing those who violate the pillars may be a temporary solution, but in the end the only good move is to put in a winning position those who comply. Impositions may frighten "bad people" for a couple of days; convenience always captures faithful attention.
Bèrto 'd Sèra Personagi dl'ann 2006 për l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojàotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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