There is no reason not to have an article on Immanuel, or innumerable other pseudoscientific phenomena / fads / people.
My opinion on fringe materials is to be inclusive in terms of having articles or descriptions, but make the descriptions from a mainstream perspective. Velikovsky was not in the end a scientist; nor was Hoagland, or others of note recently. We have articles for them, and their most important theories, as we should. The articles need not confuse the issue by telling readers to lend the fringe theory as much credibility as one does normal mainstream science.
Wikipedia specifically tells us to describe things from a neutral point of view which Jimmy Wales says is "absolute and non-negotiable".
That's not to say that we exclude the scientific point of view, or even the mainstream scientific point of view. But we do tell people there is a mainstream point of view, and point people to the appropriate article, and/or, provide criticisms where they exist.
When we describe the Republican point of view, we don't automatically counter-point from the Democratic point of view.
I would expect a scientific encyclopedia to assume a mainstream scientific point of view.
Regards,
Ian Tresman www.plasma-universe.com
On 9/17/07, Ian Tresman ian2@knowledge.co.uk wrote:
There is no reason not to have an article on Immanuel, or innumerable other pseudoscientific phenomena / fads / people.
My opinion on fringe materials is to be inclusive in terms of having articles or descriptions, but make the descriptions from a mainstream perspective. Velikovsky was not in the end a scientist; nor was Hoagland, or others of note recently. We have articles for them, and their most important theories, as we should. The articles need not confuse the issue by telling readers to lend the fringe theory as much credibility as one does normal mainstream science.
Wikipedia specifically tells us to describe things from a neutral point of view which Jimmy Wales says is "absolute and non-negotiable".
That's not to say that we exclude the scientific point of view, or even the mainstream scientific point of view. But we do tell people there is a mainstream point of view, and point people to the appropriate article, and/or, provide criticisms where they exist.
When we describe the Republican point of view, we don't automatically counter-point from the Democratic point of view.
I would expect a scientific encyclopedia to assume a mainstream scientific point of view.
I'm sorry, but you're attempting to reinterpret the neutrality policy in ways that simply benefit you and other fringeists.
Neutral, regarding conspiracy theories and pseudoscience, is to state the theory's fundamental statement, note that it is not considered part of mainstream science (or insert field), and then go ahead and describe the details in a neutral fashion. Once that's done, a criticisms section noting how mainstream science (or insert field) believes the theory to be wrong.
Failing to note that something is not part of mainstream science (or the equivalent, historical or whatever, for conspiracies) is significantly *more* non-neutral and biased towards the theories.
There are those who seek to treat such theories as simply completely credible; we should not and cannot do that.
There are those who seek to treat such theories as jokes, and use derogatory comments about their authors or the theory itself. We also should not do that.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NPOV#Undue_weight "We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties."
This is settled policy. Attempting to nibble in at the edges may be amusing for you, but is not going to succeed.
You have a right to hold your beliefs. We have a completely legitimate right to observe that they're not part of the mainstream, form a tiny minority, and describe them as such in Wikipedia coverage. If you don't like that then you need to convince people elsewhere that they're notable and correct. Attempting to enhance their credibility via false representations in Wikipedia is an insidious form of original research creep. That shall not pass.
George Herbert wrote:
On 9/17/07, Ian Tresman ian2@knowledge.co.uk wrote:
There is no reason not to have an article on Immanuel, or innumerable other pseudoscientific phenomena / fads / people.
My opinion on fringe materials is to be inclusive in terms of having articles or descriptions, but make the descriptions from a mainstream perspective. Velikovsky was not in the end a scientist; nor was Hoagland, or others of note recently. We have articles for them, and their most important theories, as we should. The articles need not confuse the issue by telling readers to lend the fringe theory as much credibility as one does normal mainstream science.
Wikipedia specifically tells us to describe things from a neutral point of view which Jimmy Wales says is "absolute and non-negotiable".
That's not to say that we exclude the scientific point of view, or even the mainstream scientific point of view. But we do tell people there is a mainstream point of view, and point people to the appropriate article, and/or, provide criticisms where they exist.
When we describe the Republican point of view, we don't automatically counter-point from the Democratic point of view.
I would expect a scientific encyclopedia to assume a mainstream scientific point of view.
I'm sorry, but you're attempting to reinterpret the neutrality policy in ways that simply benefit you and other fringeists.
Your disagreement with neutrality policy is no reason to start making false accusations about people.
Neutral, regarding conspiracy theories and pseudoscience, is to state the theory's fundamental statement, note that it is not considered part of mainstream science (or insert field), and then go ahead and describe the details in a neutral fashion. Once that's done, a criticisms section noting how mainstream science (or insert field) believes the theory to be wrong.
When you state it that way there is no significant disagreement. Nevertheless if we are talking about Velikovsky's theories in astronomy and geology, the most credible scientists to support counterarguments should be astronomers and geologists. Using the term "mainstream science" generically is no argument at all.
Failing to note that something is not part of mainstream science (or the equivalent, historical or whatever, for conspiracies) is significantly *more* non-neutral and biased towards the theories.
Nobody is saying that we shouldn't note that.
There are those who seek to treat such theories as simply completely credible; we should not and cannot do that.
Who is arguing that we should?
There are those who seek to treat such theories as jokes, and use derogatory comments about their authors or the theory itself. We also should not do that.
That's exactly what I'm saying when I call such terms as "pseudoscience" derogatory. Your statement here makes my point.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NPOV#Undue_weight "We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties."
This is settled policy. Attempting to nibble in at the edges may be amusing for you, but is not going to succeed.
This is an unfounded accusation.
You have a right to hold your beliefs. We have a completely legitimate right to observe that they're not part of the mainstream, form a tiny minority, and describe them as such in Wikipedia coverage. If you don't like that then you need to convince people elsewhere that they're notable and correct. Attempting to enhance their credibility via false representations in Wikipedia is an insidious form of original research creep. That shall not pass
Who is arguing that these theories are part of the mainstream? Where? Where are the false representations that you allege?
Ec
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