In response to Mark's comments on Fri Apr 15 06:10:23 UTC 2005:
"I don't see mo: as the Moldovan Wikipedia. I see it
as the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia..."
But mo: *is* the Moldovan Wikipedia, it can never be seen as the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia. Seeing it that way would just be biased. If we look at how mo: wiki started, it started because the ISO assigned the Moldovan language a code of "mo" and therefore it was created as such by Wikimedia. The language with the code "mo" is Moldovan, which is officially written in Latin script. Hence, the mo: subdomain cannot be seen as the Moldovan *Cyrillic* Wikipedia.
"So far, nobody who claims to speak
"Moldovan" as their mother tongue has challenged it.", "You and your ro.wikipedian goon squad may care"
Firstly, just because no-one challenges an idea doesn't mean it's right! Concerning the goon squad, I found that notion quite amusing actually. We have so far argued logically and, at least I believe so, in a very good manner. I don't think anyone has acted like a goon!
"Why not "Moldoveneasca" in the Cyrillic alphabet?
Only a dunce would think, without some prior experience, that a link to "Moldoveneasca", /in the Cyrillic alphabet/, would get them to non-Cyrillic content."
Look, again you're thinking too pratically here. Maybe I'm wrong because I think everything through too politically. The issue about how to put the interwiki link is not about dunces and practicality, it's about what's right and correct. If you put a link with Moldoveneasca in Cyrillic, people will think that Moldovan is always written, or at least majoritarily/officially written in Cyrillic. Plainly, it is not, hence we need to specify that the version they will be clicking on is Moldovan (Cyrillic) as opposed to Moldovan Latin. If there was "Moldoveaneasca" in both scripts, it would be OK, but since only the Cyrillic will be present, then we must specify.
Anyway, I don't understand why you're so committed against forming a new subdomain for mo-cyr:. No-one else has seemed to mind too much about its formation, and it would surely delimit the issue much more clearly. What's so wrong? I don't even see why it would be detrimental to the Moldovan Cyrillic authors.
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What are the differences between Romanian and Moldovan variant? Is it situation where one language has morphological alphabet and another phonological or it is possible to make some kind of simple transliteration?
May you tell me where to find mor data?
On 4/16/05, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) rowikipedia@yahoo.com wrote:
In response to Mark's comments on Fri Apr 15 06:10:23 UTC 2005:
"I don't see mo: as the Moldovan Wikipedia. I see it
as the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia..."
But mo: *is* the Moldovan Wikipedia, it can never be seen as the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia. Seeing it that way would just be biased. If we look at how mo: wiki started, it started because the ISO assigned the Moldovan language a code of "mo" and therefore it was created as such by Wikimedia. The language with the code "mo" is Moldovan, which is officially written in Latin script. Hence, the mo: subdomain cannot be seen as the Moldovan *Cyrillic* Wikipedia.
"So far, nobody who claims to speak
"Moldovan" as their mother tongue has challenged it.", "You and your ro.wikipedian goon squad may care"
Firstly, just because no-one challenges an idea doesn't mean it's right! Concerning the goon squad, I found that notion quite amusing actually. We have so far argued logically and, at least I believe so, in a very good manner. I don't think anyone has acted like a goon!
"Why not "Moldoveneasca" in the Cyrillic alphabet?
Only a dunce would think, without some prior experience, that a link to "Moldoveneasca", /in the Cyrillic alphabet/, would get them to non-Cyrillic content."
Look, again you're thinking too pratically here. Maybe I'm wrong because I think everything through too politically. The issue about how to put the interwiki link is not about dunces and practicality, it's about what's right and correct. If you put a link with Moldoveneasca in Cyrillic, people will think that Moldovan is always written, or at least majoritarily/officially written in Cyrillic. Plainly, it is not, hence we need to specify that the version they will be clicking on is Moldovan (Cyrillic) as opposed to Moldovan Latin. If there was "Moldoveaneasca" in both scripts, it would be OK, but since only the Cyrillic will be present, then we must specify.
Anyway, I don't understand why you're so committed against forming a new subdomain for mo-cyr:. No-one else has seemed to mind too much about its formation, and it would surely delimit the issue much more clearly. What's so wrong? I don't even see why it would be detrimental to the Moldovan Cyrillic authors.
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Hi Milos,
The difference is that while Romanian uses both î and â to represent the same sound, in Moldovan both of these are spelled î. Thus, "O, brad frumos este un cântec de Crăciun închinat pomului de Crăciun. Cântecul a fost tradus în multe limbi ale lumii şi este răspândit la nivel mondial." is "O, brad frumos este un cîntec de Crăciun închinat pomului de Crăciun. Cîntecul a fost tradus în multe limbi ale lumii şi este răspîndit la nivel mondial."
Other than that the differences are very minimal, and they include the Moldovan preference to use native words or Russian loanwords rather than the Romanian preference for French and Italian words.
Cyrillic, however, is written very phonetically.
You asked earlier about the difficulties in orthographical conversion between Cyrillic and Latin.
The letter i can be и, й or ь in Cyrillic, it depends on its pronunciation. The combination iu can be written in Cyrillic as ию, ью, ю, йю. The combination ia can be written in Cyrillic as иа, ьа, йа, ия, ья, or йя, but on its own the Cyrillic letter "я" is translitereated "ea" in Latin (for example, the name of the popular song "Dragostea Din Tei" is Драгостя Дин Тей in Cyrillic.)
Mark
On 16/04/05, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
What are the differences between Romanian and Moldovan variant? Is it situation where one language has morphological alphabet and another phonological or it is possible to make some kind of simple transliteration?
May you tell me where to find mor data?
On 4/16/05, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) rowikipedia@yahoo.com wrote:
In response to Mark's comments on Fri Apr 15 06:10:23 UTC 2005:
"I don't see mo: as the Moldovan Wikipedia. I see it
as the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia..."
But mo: *is* the Moldovan Wikipedia, it can never be seen as the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia. Seeing it that way would just be biased. If we look at how mo: wiki started, it started because the ISO assigned the Moldovan language a code of "mo" and therefore it was created as such by Wikimedia. The language with the code "mo" is Moldovan, which is officially written in Latin script. Hence, the mo: subdomain cannot be seen as the Moldovan *Cyrillic* Wikipedia.
"So far, nobody who claims to speak
"Moldovan" as their mother tongue has challenged it.", "You and your ro.wikipedian goon squad may care"
Firstly, just because no-one challenges an idea doesn't mean it's right! Concerning the goon squad, I found that notion quite amusing actually. We have so far argued logically and, at least I believe so, in a very good manner. I don't think anyone has acted like a goon!
"Why not "Moldoveneasca" in the Cyrillic alphabet?
Only a dunce would think, without some prior experience, that a link to "Moldoveneasca", /in the Cyrillic alphabet/, would get them to non-Cyrillic content."
Look, again you're thinking too pratically here. Maybe I'm wrong because I think everything through too politically. The issue about how to put the interwiki link is not about dunces and practicality, it's about what's right and correct. If you put a link with Moldoveneasca in Cyrillic, people will think that Moldovan is always written, or at least majoritarily/officially written in Cyrillic. Plainly, it is not, hence we need to specify that the version they will be clicking on is Moldovan (Cyrillic) as opposed to Moldovan Latin. If there was "Moldoveaneasca" in both scripts, it would be OK, but since only the Cyrillic will be present, then we must specify.
Anyway, I don't understand why you're so committed against forming a new subdomain for mo-cyr:. No-one else has seemed to mind too much about its formation, and it would surely delimit the issue much more clearly. What's so wrong? I don't even see why it would be detrimental to the Moldovan Cyrillic authors.
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OK. As I supposed, Romanian variant have more morphological attributes then Moldovan.
It is possible to solve that. First, with a lot of exceptions, then with smaller number of exceptions, but with dictionary.
And, it is interesting computational linguistic work :)
On 4/16/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Milos,
The difference is that while Romanian uses both î and â to represent the same sound, in Moldovan both of these are spelled î. Thus, "O, brad frumos este un cântec de Crăciun închinat pomului de Crăciun. Cântecul a fost tradus în multe limbi ale lumii şi este răspândit la nivel mondial." is "O, brad frumos este un cîntec de Crăciun închinat pomului de Crăciun. Cîntecul a fost tradus în multe limbi ale lumii şi este răspîndit la nivel mondial."
Other than that the differences are very minimal, and they include the Moldovan preference to use native words or Russian loanwords rather than the Romanian preference for French and Italian words.
Cyrillic, however, is written very phonetically.
You asked earlier about the difficulties in orthographical conversion between Cyrillic and Latin.
The letter i can be и, й or ь in Cyrillic, it depends on its pronunciation. The combination iu can be written in Cyrillic as ию, ью, ю, йю. The combination ia can be written in Cyrillic as иа, ьа, йа, ия, ья, or йя, but on its own the Cyrillic letter "я" is translitereated "ea" in Latin (for example, the name of the popular song "Dragostea Din Tei" is Драгостя Дин Тей in Cyrillic.)
Mark
On 16/04/05, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
What are the differences between Romanian and Moldovan variant? Is it situation where one language has morphological alphabet and another phonological or it is possible to make some kind of simple transliteration?
May you tell me where to find mor data?
On 4/16/05, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) rowikipedia@yahoo.com wrote:
In response to Mark's comments on Fri Apr 15 06:10:23 UTC 2005:
"I don't see mo: as the Moldovan Wikipedia. I see it
as the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia..."
But mo: *is* the Moldovan Wikipedia, it can never be seen as the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia. Seeing it that way would just be biased. If we look at how mo: wiki started, it started because the ISO assigned the Moldovan language a code of "mo" and therefore it was created as such by Wikimedia. The language with the code "mo" is Moldovan, which is officially written in Latin script. Hence, the mo: subdomain cannot be seen as the Moldovan *Cyrillic* Wikipedia.
"So far, nobody who claims to speak
"Moldovan" as their mother tongue has challenged it.", "You and your ro.wikipedian goon squad may care"
Firstly, just because no-one challenges an idea doesn't mean it's right! Concerning the goon squad, I found that notion quite amusing actually. We have so far argued logically and, at least I believe so, in a very good manner. I don't think anyone has acted like a goon!
"Why not "Moldoveneasca" in the Cyrillic alphabet?
Only a dunce would think, without some prior experience, that a link to "Moldoveneasca", /in the Cyrillic alphabet/, would get them to non-Cyrillic content."
Look, again you're thinking too pratically here. Maybe I'm wrong because I think everything through too politically. The issue about how to put the interwiki link is not about dunces and practicality, it's about what's right and correct. If you put a link with Moldoveneasca in Cyrillic, people will think that Moldovan is always written, or at least majoritarily/officially written in Cyrillic. Plainly, it is not, hence we need to specify that the version they will be clicking on is Moldovan (Cyrillic) as opposed to Moldovan Latin. If there was "Moldoveaneasca" in both scripts, it would be OK, but since only the Cyrillic will be present, then we must specify.
Anyway, I don't understand why you're so committed against forming a new subdomain for mo-cyr:. No-one else has seemed to mind too much about its formation, and it would surely delimit the issue much more clearly. What's so wrong? I don't even see why it would be detrimental to the Moldovan Cyrillic authors.
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Actually, it's the other way around.
Romanian writes a number of different sounds with the same letter or combination of letters.
Unless you're talking about Moldovan written in the Latin alphabet. That's not an issue - the difference there is so minor we don't need to worry about it.
I don't like to make generalisations, but what I would say is: "i" becomes и in most situations, й usually after another vowel (or if it's a double "i") and sometimes before, and ь most often at the end of the word.
I think there's some really complex situational rules.
If you want (I would suggest some sort of neural networking to learn complex rules), you can use the paralell texts of http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D0%BE%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%9F%D0%B0%D1%83%D0%... and http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioan_Paul_al_II-lea both about the late Karol Jozef Wojtyla, the Moldovan version is currently a simple transliteration of the Romanian with a few small exceptions.
Mark
On 16/04/05, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
OK. As I supposed, Romanian variant have more morphological attributes then Moldovan.
It is possible to solve that. First, with a lot of exceptions, then with smaller number of exceptions, but with dictionary.
And, it is interesting computational linguistic work :)
On 4/16/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Milos,
The difference is that while Romanian uses both î and â to represent the same sound, in Moldovan both of these are spelled î. Thus, "O, brad frumos este un cântec de Crăciun închinat pomului de Crăciun. Cântecul a fost tradus în multe limbi ale lumii şi este răspândit la nivel mondial." is "O, brad frumos este un cîntec de Crăciun închinat pomului de Crăciun. Cîntecul a fost tradus în multe limbi ale lumii şi este răspîndit la nivel mondial."
Other than that the differences are very minimal, and they include the Moldovan preference to use native words or Russian loanwords rather than the Romanian preference for French and Italian words.
Cyrillic, however, is written very phonetically.
You asked earlier about the difficulties in orthographical conversion between Cyrillic and Latin.
The letter i can be и, й or ь in Cyrillic, it depends on its pronunciation. The combination iu can be written in Cyrillic as ию, ью, ю, йю. The combination ia can be written in Cyrillic as иа, ьа, йа, ия, ья, or йя, but on its own the Cyrillic letter "я" is translitereated "ea" in Latin (for example, the name of the popular song "Dragostea Din Tei" is Драгостя Дин Тей in Cyrillic.)
Mark
On 16/04/05, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
What are the differences between Romanian and Moldovan variant? Is it situation where one language has morphological alphabet and another phonological or it is possible to make some kind of simple transliteration?
May you tell me where to find mor data?
On 4/16/05, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) rowikipedia@yahoo.com wrote:
In response to Mark's comments on Fri Apr 15 06:10:23 UTC 2005:
"I don't see mo: as the Moldovan Wikipedia. I see it
as the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia..."
But mo: *is* the Moldovan Wikipedia, it can never be seen as the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia. Seeing it that way would just be biased. If we look at how mo: wiki started, it started because the ISO assigned the Moldovan language a code of "mo" and therefore it was created as such by Wikimedia. The language with the code "mo" is Moldovan, which is officially written in Latin script. Hence, the mo: subdomain cannot be seen as the Moldovan *Cyrillic* Wikipedia.
"So far, nobody who claims to speak
"Moldovan" as their mother tongue has challenged it.", "You and your ro.wikipedian goon squad may care"
Firstly, just because no-one challenges an idea doesn't mean it's right! Concerning the goon squad, I found that notion quite amusing actually. We have so far argued logically and, at least I believe so, in a very good manner. I don't think anyone has acted like a goon!
"Why not "Moldoveneasca" in the Cyrillic alphabet?
Only a dunce would think, without some prior experience, that a link to "Moldoveneasca", /in the Cyrillic alphabet/, would get them to non-Cyrillic content."
Look, again you're thinking too pratically here. Maybe I'm wrong because I think everything through too politically. The issue about how to put the interwiki link is not about dunces and practicality, it's about what's right and correct. If you put a link with Moldoveneasca in Cyrillic, people will think that Moldovan is always written, or at least majoritarily/officially written in Cyrillic. Plainly, it is not, hence we need to specify that the version they will be clicking on is Moldovan (Cyrillic) as opposed to Moldovan Latin. If there was "Moldoveaneasca" in both scripts, it would be OK, but since only the Cyrillic will be present, then we must specify.
Anyway, I don't understand why you're so committed against forming a new subdomain for mo-cyr:. No-one else has seemed to mind too much about its formation, and it would surely delimit the issue much more clearly. What's so wrong? I don't even see why it would be detrimental to the Moldovan Cyrillic authors.
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I understand what is the problem between Cyrillic and Latin... Long time ago, I made program in Perl which devides Serbian words into syllabs (the heart of it is at http://millosh.org/software/ltafos/afos/AFOS-0.6.4-16/mod/Slog.pm). As I see, Cyrillic-Roman conversion for Moldovan needs similar algorithm. The complete algorithm is formal, not fuzzy.
During the next week, I'll go to the Philological Faculty in Belgrade, I hope I would find some Romanian phonologist there and I would ask him/her for transliteration rules.
On 4/17/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Actually, it's the other way around.
Romanian writes a number of different sounds with the same letter or combination of letters.
Unless you're talking about Moldovan written in the Latin alphabet. That's not an issue - the difference there is so minor we don't need to worry about it.
I don't like to make generalisations, but what I would say is: "i" becomes и in most situations, й usually after another vowel (or if it's a double "i") and sometimes before, and ь most often at the end of the word.
I think there's some really complex situational rules.
If you want (I would suggest some sort of neural networking to learn complex rules), you can use the paralell texts of http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D0%BE%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%9F%D0%B0%D1%83%D0%... and http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioan_Paul_al_II-lea both about the late Karol Jozef Wojtyla, the Moldovan version is currently a simple transliteration of the Romanian with a few small exceptions.
Mark
On 16/04/05, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
OK. As I supposed, Romanian variant have more morphological attributes then Moldovan.
It is possible to solve that. First, with a lot of exceptions, then with smaller number of exceptions, but with dictionary.
And, it is interesting computational linguistic work :)
On 4/16/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Milos,
The difference is that while Romanian uses both î and â to represent the same sound, in Moldovan both of these are spelled î. Thus, "O, brad frumos este un cântec de Crăciun închinat pomului de Crăciun. Cântecul a fost tradus în multe limbi ale lumii şi este răspândit la nivel mondial." is "O, brad frumos este un cîntec de Crăciun închinat pomului de Crăciun. Cîntecul a fost tradus în multe limbi ale lumii şi este răspîndit la nivel mondial."
Other than that the differences are very minimal, and they include the Moldovan preference to use native words or Russian loanwords rather than the Romanian preference for French and Italian words.
Cyrillic, however, is written very phonetically.
You asked earlier about the difficulties in orthographical conversion between Cyrillic and Latin.
The letter i can be и, й or ь in Cyrillic, it depends on its pronunciation. The combination iu can be written in Cyrillic as ию, ью, ю, йю. The combination ia can be written in Cyrillic as иа, ьа, йа, ия, ья, or йя, but on its own the Cyrillic letter "я" is translitereated "ea" in Latin (for example, the name of the popular song "Dragostea Din Tei" is Драгостя Дин Тей in Cyrillic.)
Mark
On 16/04/05, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
What are the differences between Romanian and Moldovan variant? Is it situation where one language has morphological alphabet and another phonological or it is possible to make some kind of simple transliteration?
May you tell me where to find mor data?
On 4/16/05, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) rowikipedia@yahoo.com wrote:
In response to Mark's comments on Fri Apr 15 06:10:23 UTC 2005:
"I don't see mo: as the Moldovan Wikipedia. I see it
as the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia..."
But mo: *is* the Moldovan Wikipedia, it can never be seen as the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia. Seeing it that way would just be biased. If we look at how mo: wiki started, it started because the ISO assigned the Moldovan language a code of "mo" and therefore it was created as such by Wikimedia. The language with the code "mo" is Moldovan, which is officially written in Latin script. Hence, the mo: subdomain cannot be seen as the Moldovan *Cyrillic* Wikipedia.
"So far, nobody who claims to speak
"Moldovan" as their mother tongue has challenged it.", "You and your ro.wikipedian goon squad may care"
Firstly, just because no-one challenges an idea doesn't mean it's right! Concerning the goon squad, I found that notion quite amusing actually. We have so far argued logically and, at least I believe so, in a very good manner. I don't think anyone has acted like a goon!
"Why not "Moldoveneasca" in the Cyrillic alphabet?
Only a dunce would think, without some prior experience, that a link to "Moldoveneasca", /in the Cyrillic alphabet/, would get them to non-Cyrillic content."
Look, again you're thinking too pratically here. Maybe I'm wrong because I think everything through too politically. The issue about how to put the interwiki link is not about dunces and practicality, it's about what's right and correct. If you put a link with Moldoveneasca in Cyrillic, people will think that Moldovan is always written, or at least majoritarily/officially written in Cyrillic. Plainly, it is not, hence we need to specify that the version they will be clicking on is Moldovan (Cyrillic) as opposed to Moldovan Latin. If there was "Moldoveaneasca" in both scripts, it would be OK, but since only the Cyrillic will be present, then we must specify.
Anyway, I don't understand why you're so committed against forming a new subdomain for mo-cyr:. No-one else has seemed to mind too much about its formation, and it would surely delimit the issue much more clearly. What's so wrong? I don't even see why it would be detrimental to the Moldovan Cyrillic authors.
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Unfortunately, he probably won't be able to help you because very few Romanians know Cyrillic.
It's also not entirely an issue of syllables, and there are no exact formal rules for how to read letters. There are some patterns, but in general you just have to be fluent. That's why I suggested a neural networking approach.
Mark
On 16/04/05, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
I understand what is the problem between Cyrillic and Latin... Long time ago, I made program in Perl which devides Serbian words into syllabs (the heart of it is at http://millosh.org/software/ltafos/afos/AFOS-0.6.4-16/mod/Slog.pm). As I see, Cyrillic-Roman conversion for Moldovan needs similar algorithm. The complete algorithm is formal, not fuzzy.
During the next week, I'll go to the Philological Faculty in Belgrade, I hope I would find some Romanian phonologist there and I would ask him/her for transliteration rules.
On 4/17/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Actually, it's the other way around.
Romanian writes a number of different sounds with the same letter or combination of letters.
Unless you're talking about Moldovan written in the Latin alphabet. That's not an issue - the difference there is so minor we don't need to worry about it.
I don't like to make generalisations, but what I would say is: "i" becomes и in most situations, й usually after another vowel (or if it's a double "i") and sometimes before, and ь most often at the end of the word.
I think there's some really complex situational rules.
If you want (I would suggest some sort of neural networking to learn complex rules), you can use the paralell texts of http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D0%BE%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%9F%D0%B0%D1%83%D0%... and http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioan_Paul_al_II-lea both about the late Karol Jozef Wojtyla, the Moldovan version is currently a simple transliteration of the Romanian with a few small exceptions.
Mark
On 16/04/05, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
OK. As I supposed, Romanian variant have more morphological attributes then Moldovan.
It is possible to solve that. First, with a lot of exceptions, then with smaller number of exceptions, but with dictionary.
And, it is interesting computational linguistic work :)
On 4/16/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Milos,
The difference is that while Romanian uses both î and â to represent the same sound, in Moldovan both of these are spelled î. Thus, "O, brad frumos este un cântec de Crăciun închinat pomului de Crăciun. Cântecul a fost tradus în multe limbi ale lumii şi este răspândit la nivel mondial." is "O, brad frumos este un cîntec de Crăciun închinat pomului de Crăciun. Cîntecul a fost tradus în multe limbi ale lumii şi este răspîndit la nivel mondial."
Other than that the differences are very minimal, and they include the Moldovan preference to use native words or Russian loanwords rather than the Romanian preference for French and Italian words.
Cyrillic, however, is written very phonetically.
You asked earlier about the difficulties in orthographical conversion between Cyrillic and Latin.
The letter i can be и, й or ь in Cyrillic, it depends on its pronunciation. The combination iu can be written in Cyrillic as ию, ью, ю, йю. The combination ia can be written in Cyrillic as иа, ьа, йа, ия, ья, or йя, but on its own the Cyrillic letter "я" is translitereated "ea" in Latin (for example, the name of the popular song "Dragostea Din Tei" is Драгостя Дин Тей in Cyrillic.)
Mark
On 16/04/05, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
What are the differences between Romanian and Moldovan variant? Is it situation where one language has morphological alphabet and another phonological or it is possible to make some kind of simple transliteration?
May you tell me where to find mor data?
On 4/16/05, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) rowikipedia@yahoo.com wrote:
In response to Mark's comments on Fri Apr 15 06:10:23 UTC 2005:
>"I don't see mo: as the Moldovan Wikipedia. I see it as the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia..."
But mo: *is* the Moldovan Wikipedia, it can never be seen as the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia. Seeing it that way would just be biased. If we look at how mo: wiki started, it started because the ISO assigned the Moldovan language a code of "mo" and therefore it was created as such by Wikimedia. The language with the code "mo" is Moldovan, which is officially written in Latin script. Hence, the mo: subdomain cannot be seen as the Moldovan *Cyrillic* Wikipedia.
>"So far, nobody who claims to speak "Moldovan" as their mother tongue has challenged it.", "You and your ro.wikipedian goon squad may care"
Firstly, just because no-one challenges an idea doesn't mean it's right! Concerning the goon squad, I found that notion quite amusing actually. We have so far argued logically and, at least I believe so, in a very good manner. I don't think anyone has acted like a goon!
>"Why not "Moldoveneasca" in the Cyrillic alphabet? Only a dunce would think, without some prior experience, that a link to "Moldoveneasca", /in the Cyrillic alphabet/, would get them to non-Cyrillic content."
Look, again you're thinking too pratically here. Maybe I'm wrong because I think everything through too politically. The issue about how to put the interwiki link is not about dunces and practicality, it's about what's right and correct. If you put a link with Moldoveneasca in Cyrillic, people will think that Moldovan is always written, or at least majoritarily/officially written in Cyrillic. Plainly, it is not, hence we need to specify that the version they will be clicking on is Moldovan (Cyrillic) as opposed to Moldovan Latin. If there was "Moldoveaneasca" in both scripts, it would be OK, but since only the Cyrillic will be present, then we must specify.
Anyway, I don't understand why you're so committed against forming a new subdomain for mo-cyr:. No-one else has seemed to mind too much about its formation, and it would surely delimit the issue much more clearly. What's so wrong? I don't even see why it would be detrimental to the Moldovan Cyrillic authors.
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On 4/17/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Unfortunately, he probably won't be able to help you because very few Romanians know Cyrillic.
I just hope that some university professor of Romanian phonology knows Moldovan Cyrillic :)
It's also not entirely an issue of syllables, and there are no exact formal rules for how to read letters. There are some patterns, but in general you just have to be fluent. That's why I suggested a neural networking approach.
Approach is similar. I think that algorithm is called in English "finite automates": if first, second and fourth letter are something, then third letter should be changed from x to y :)
However, I hope we would have more informations at the beginning of the next week.
Again I would like to point out that you are emphasising what is "right" or "correct". Why does that matter? Why should we care? The only people complaining about the current solution is you and other ro.wikipedians. So far, the only Moldovan to visit has actually expressed his opinion that the Cyrillic alphabet is better for writing the language, and has referred to the Latin alphabet as the "Romanian alphabet", and has not criticised the status quo.
So far there have been no complaints from real, live, Moldovans. Again, I am being practical (as you admit), while you are being theoretical. The status quo may not be technically "right" or "correct", according to you, but why does that matter? There have been no complaints from actual Moldovans, only from Romanians, and they are all politically motivated.
My solution is practical, and currently it is working fine. As I noted before, "mo-cyr" is a longer URL, and I don't see the need to switch when the status quo is working just fine for all the people who /should/ care, the only people who have a problem with it are Romanians who are trying to meddle in the affairs of the Moldovan Wikipedia for political reasons and replace the perfectly working status quo with some sort of cumbersome change that they say is technically correct, which will make the URL longer and require the assistance of a developer.
Mark
On 16/04/05, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) rowikipedia@yahoo.com wrote:
In response to Mark's comments on Fri Apr 15 06:10:23 UTC 2005:
"I don't see mo: as the Moldovan Wikipedia. I see it
as the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia..."
But mo: *is* the Moldovan Wikipedia, it can never be seen as the Moldovan Cyrillic Wikipedia. Seeing it that way would just be biased. If we look at how mo: wiki started, it started because the ISO assigned the Moldovan language a code of "mo" and therefore it was created as such by Wikimedia. The language with the code "mo" is Moldovan, which is officially written in Latin script. Hence, the mo: subdomain cannot be seen as the Moldovan *Cyrillic* Wikipedia.
"So far, nobody who claims to speak
"Moldovan" as their mother tongue has challenged it.", "You and your ro.wikipedian goon squad may care"
Firstly, just because no-one challenges an idea doesn't mean it's right! Concerning the goon squad, I found that notion quite amusing actually. We have so far argued logically and, at least I believe so, in a very good manner. I don't think anyone has acted like a goon!
"Why not "Moldoveneasca" in the Cyrillic alphabet?
Only a dunce would think, without some prior experience, that a link to "Moldoveneasca", /in the Cyrillic alphabet/, would get them to non-Cyrillic content."
Look, again you're thinking too pratically here. Maybe I'm wrong because I think everything through too politically. The issue about how to put the interwiki link is not about dunces and practicality, it's about what's right and correct. If you put a link with Moldoveneasca in Cyrillic, people will think that Moldovan is always written, or at least majoritarily/officially written in Cyrillic. Plainly, it is not, hence we need to specify that the version they will be clicking on is Moldovan (Cyrillic) as opposed to Moldovan Latin. If there was "Moldoveaneasca" in both scripts, it would be OK, but since only the Cyrillic will be present, then we must specify.
Anyway, I don't understand why you're so committed against forming a new subdomain for mo-cyr:. No-one else has seemed to mind too much about its formation, and it would surely delimit the issue much more clearly. What's so wrong? I don't even see why it would be detrimental to the Moldovan Cyrillic authors.
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