Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch.
Ok "Patentplatt" or "Fernsehplatt" (TV Platt) as it is called sometimes - that really seems to happen. I think that word is less misleading. Of course, different people will have different views on what is unique and what is not. Languages like German or French have had established unified standards for centuries, so there is hardly ever any doubt what's linguistically correct or not at de: or fr:. Obviously, at nds: you don`t have that degree of unambiguousness. I would really appreciate any efforts to improve the linguistic quality of the Low Saxon Wikipedia. After all, it is still at an early stage. Unfortunetaly, I can't really help here for, being a native in High German, I'd probably only worsen the problem of "Patentplatt".
A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography: Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un > "dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
Where does that come from? The vocabulary is mostly alright. But the spelling looks awfully articifial to me. Never before have I seen anyone using "y" in written Platt. And why should you write "v" when you say "f". Just too make look "less German"? Also, the diphtong "ou" might somehow reflect the pronounciation but is certainly not usually used in Northern Germany. And why should one want to use "kk" instead of "ck"? Just because it's written that way in the Netherlands?? And why is there an apostrophe in " Elv' "? Just because the word is "Elbe" in High German. Complete nonsense, in my humble opinion. I don't want to comment comment on the "real Platt" word "kuntray" but the "I" at the beginning of the last sentence is either Bavarian or English but surely not Platt.
Coming from the "Ünner-Elv'" myself, let me try it:
Liek so kannst dat in'n poor Dialekten vun de Ünnerelv (in Hamborg un ümto) ook seggen. "Wat" kann dor in düsse/sükse Fällen liek as "dat" un "de" bruken. Ick/Ik do dat ook faken, man tomeest wenn ick/ik snack.
Hmm...
Boris
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com, wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 08:34:13:
Hi Boris,
I'm a bit perplexed as this accusation has been made by a number of people on Lowlands-l, most of the accusers being native speakers of Low German, and at least one (RF Hahn) also speaking Missingsch. Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch".
Accusations: "Unalike the Laich Saxon edeetion whase warkers dinna actually ken the leid. (It's oor Jonny's pet plaint, his windmill faes, an that richtly.)"
"It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current WikiPlatt team. Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that. But they don't know the language well enough. Much or most of it is "Patentplatt" (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of German. I am not at all opposed to introducing technical neologisms, but there needs to be first of all a firm grasp of the basic language, the grammar and the authentic idiom."
Information on Patentplatt: "The number of Lowlands Saxon speakers ... would be large if it included people who are somewhat conversant ... and it would be even larger if it included those who ... can really only manage lexically, idiomatically and grammatically deficient, German-based, "made-up Platt" (Patentplatt)."
This is very concerning, and is clearly a major factor in the difficulty people from the Netherlands are having reading NDS.wiki. I just dashed off an e-mail to Ron to remind him that he is always welcome to "fix" the Patentplatt, because of course it's Wikipedia.
Obviously, this isn't the only factor, and I'm not sure if it's even the greatest factor. But, I feel that we should explore that.
A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un "dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
Hmm...
Best Mark
On 04/07/05, Boris Lohnzweiger BorisLohnzweiger@web.de wrote:
Hi Mark!
I was quite perplexed to read that they write Missingsch in the Low Saxon Wikipedia. So I just went there and checked out ten random pages. Having grown up in a rural area near Hamburg, it`s easy for me tell apart Low Saxon from Missingsch. The whole issue seems to be very exaggerated. All ten articles I've read were without a doubt in Plattdüütsch. Of course single articles might not be - I haven`t checked the whole Wikipedia. However, one can note that depending on the subject of the article the share of words that very closely resemble standard German words or are even identical (in writing !) is sometimes quite high. But this is a usual phenomenon in Low Saxon. Generally speaking, the more scientific a text gets the closer it comes to Hochdeutsch. Surely, sometimes this can lead to the fact that certain passages of articles don`t look too much like Platt. This can been seen very clearly in this article: http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilia . It has two sections, both written by the same author, as far as I can tell. The first ("Norddüütsche Slangen") is very "pure" Low Saxon. The second ("Systematik") looks very much like standard German, due to its topic. I think even without knowing both languages in detail you can easily tell the difference. But this is not to be confused with Missingsch. You just couldn`t say that differently or more "real", if you want.
I don`t who actually brought up this Missingsch issue (native speaker? hobby linguist?). But as a matter of fact, nds-WP is written in Low Saxon. If individual pages are in other languages (which to some degree happens in many Wikipedias) the guys at nds can certainly cope with that. However, I disbelieve that this part of the reason native speakers of Low Saxon in the Netherlands ask for a separate WP.
Boris
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com, wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 04.07.05 01:38:06:
Also, it seems to me that Walter, Wouter, and Servien are intent on ignoring the issue of nds.wiki being in Missingsch rather than real nds. But this is a real issue, and we need to deal with it. I have personally received complaints from members of lowlands-l about nds.wiki being in Missingsch, which is not actually Low Saxon but rather a "contact variety".
Surely, mutual intelligiblity would be increased very much if this huge problem were solved. I'm sure one of the main problems is the fact that it's written in Missingsch.
Perhaps before starting nds-nl.wiki, somebody should start real-nds.wiki, and after that we can see if things are any better.
Mark
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Hi Boris,
The orthography used in that text seems to me is de Algemeyne Neddersassische Schryvwys'... I also used to use it, but people don't seem to understand it quite as well in the Netherlands and Germany, I must honestly say I understand the ANS writing system way better then the one you used at the bottom (of course there are words which are completely unknown to me...)
Here is a sample of DLS in ANS writing system: As 'n mins ny vaak genog buyten kump sal y ok ny höyl bruyn wöyrden mer sal y spyrwit blyven.
And here in the traditional one: As 'n mins nie vaok genog buut'n kump zal ie ok nie heul bruun wurd'n mer zal ie spierwit bliev'n/blyv'n.
This is the one I use: As 'n mins nie vaok genog buten kump sal ie ok nie heul bruun wurden mer sal ie spierwit blyven. (it's a mixture of the traditional one and a little from ANS, I don't use the apostrophes because like in the word blyv'n is pronounced as "bliem" and this is confusing because bak'n [bake] is also pronounced differently like "bakng".)
(Translation of the text: If a person doesn't go outside much then he won't have a tanned look, but will be pale white.)
Servien
2005/7/5, Boris Lohnzweiger BorisLohnzweiger@web.de:
Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch.
Ok "Patentplatt" or "Fernsehplatt" (TV Platt) as it is called sometimes - that really seems to happen. I think that word is less misleading. Of course, different people will have different views on what is unique and what is not. Languages like German or French have had established unified standards for centuries, so there is hardly ever any doubt what's linguistically correct or not at de: or fr:. Obviously, at nds: you don`t have that degree of unambiguousness. I would really appreciate any efforts to improve the linguistic quality of the Low Saxon Wikipedia. After all, it is still at an early stage. Unfortunetaly, I can't really help here for, being a native in High German, I'd probably only worsen the problem of "Patentplatt".
A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography: Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un > "dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
Where does that come from? The vocabulary is mostly alright. But the spelling looks awfully articifial to me. Never before have I seen anyone using "y" in written Platt. And why should you write "v" when you say "f". Just too make look "less German"? Also, the diphtong "ou" might somehow reflect the pronounciation but is certainly not usually used in Northern Germany. And why should one want to use "kk" instead of "ck"? Just because it's written that way in the Netherlands?? And why is there an apostrophe in " Elv' "? Just because the word is "Elbe" in High German. Complete nonsense, in my humble opinion. I don't want to comment comment on the "real Platt" word "kuntray" but the "I" at the beginning of the last sentence is either Bavarian or English but surely not Platt.
Coming from the "Ünner-Elv'" myself, let me try it:
Liek so kannst dat in'n poor Dialekten vun de Ünnerelv (in Hamborg un ümto) ook seggen. "Wat" kann dor in düsse/sükse Fällen liek as "dat" un "de" bruken. Ick/Ik do dat ook faken, man tomeest wenn ick/ik snack.
Hmm...
Boris
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com, wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 08:34:13:
Hi Boris,
I'm a bit perplexed as this accusation has been made by a number of people on Lowlands-l, most of the accusers being native speakers of Low German, and at least one (RF Hahn) also speaking Missingsch. Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch".
Accusations: "Unalike the Laich Saxon edeetion whase warkers dinna actually ken the leid. (It's oor Jonny's pet plaint, his windmill faes, an that richtly.)"
"It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current WikiPlatt team. Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that. But they don't know the language well enough. Much or most of it is "Patentplatt" (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of German. I am not at all opposed to introducing technical neologisms, but there needs to be first of all a firm grasp of the basic language, the grammar and the authentic idiom."
Information on Patentplatt: "The number of Lowlands Saxon speakers ... would be large if it included people who are somewhat conversant ... and it would be even larger if it included those who ... can really only manage lexically, idiomatically and grammatically deficient, German-based, "made-up Platt" (Patentplatt)."
This is very concerning, and is clearly a major factor in the difficulty people from the Netherlands are having reading NDS.wiki. I just dashed off an e-mail to Ron to remind him that he is always welcome to "fix" the Patentplatt, because of course it's Wikipedia.
Obviously, this isn't the only factor, and I'm not sure if it's even the greatest factor. But, I feel that we should explore that.
A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un "dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
Hmm...
Best Mark
On 04/07/05, Boris Lohnzweiger BorisLohnzweiger@web.de wrote:
Hi Mark!
I was quite perplexed to read that they write Missingsch in the Low Saxon Wikipedia. So I just went there and checked out ten random pages. Having grown up in a rural area near Hamburg, it`s easy for me tell apart Low Saxon from Missingsch. The whole issue seems to be very exaggerated. All ten articles I've read were without a doubt in Plattdüütsch. Of course single articles might not be - I haven`t checked the whole Wikipedia. However, one can note that depending on the subject of the article the share of words that very closely resemble standard German words or are even identical (in writing !) is sometimes quite high. But this is a usual phenomenon in Low Saxon. Generally speaking, the more scientific a text gets the closer it comes to Hochdeutsch. Surely, sometimes this can lead to the fact that certain passages of articles don`t look too much like Platt. This can been seen very clearly in this article: http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilia . It has two sections, both written by the same author, as far as I can tell. The first ("Norddüütsche Slangen") is very "pure" Low Saxon. The second ("Systematik") looks very much like standard German, due to its topic. I think even without knowing both languages in detail you can easily tell the difference. But this is not to be confused with Missingsch. You just couldn`t say that differently or more "real", if you want.
I don`t who actually brought up this Missingsch issue (native speaker? hobby linguist?). But as a matter of fact, nds-WP is written in Low Saxon. If individual pages are in other languages (which to some degree happens in many Wikipedias) the guys at nds can certainly cope with that. However, I disbelieve that this part of the reason native speakers of Low Saxon in the Netherlands ask for a separate WP.
Boris
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com, wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 04.07.05 01:38:06:
Also, it seems to me that Walter, Wouter, and Servien are intent on ignoring the issue of nds.wiki being in Missingsch rather than real nds. But this is a real issue, and we need to deal with it. I have personally received complaints from members of lowlands-l about nds.wiki being in Missingsch, which is not actually Low Saxon but rather a "contact variety".
Surely, mutual intelligiblity would be increased very much if this huge problem were solved. I'm sure one of the main problems is the fact that it's written in Missingsch.
Perhaps before starting nds-nl.wiki, somebody should start real-nds.wiki, and after that we can see if things are any better.
Mark
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I am guessing -- guessing -- on the German-orthography spelling:
As 'n mins ni vaak (waak?) genog büüten kümp sal i ok ni höl brüün würden mer sal i spirwit blifen/bliefen.
My attempt at Dutch-orthography for the earlier text:
Lyk zo kanst dat in 'n por (paor?) dialekten vun de Unner-Elv (in Hamborg un Umto) ok zegen. "Vat" kan dor in zukse vaelen lyk as "dat" un "de" bruken. Ik do dat ok vaken, man to meest ven ik snakken do.
Mark
On 05/07/05, Servien Ilaino servien@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Boris,
The orthography used in that text seems to me is de Algemeyne Neddersassische Schryvwys'... I also used to use it, but people don't seem to understand it quite as well in the Netherlands and Germany, I must honestly say I understand the ANS writing system way better then the one you used at the bottom (of course there are words which are completely unknown to me...)
Here is a sample of DLS in ANS writing system: As 'n mins ny vaak genog buyten kump sal y ok ny höyl bruyn wöyrden mer sal y spyrwit blyven.
And here in the traditional one: As 'n mins nie vaok genog buut'n kump zal ie ok nie heul bruun wurd'n mer zal ie spierwit bliev'n/blyv'n.
This is the one I use: As 'n mins nie vaok genog buten kump sal ie ok nie heul bruun wurden mer sal ie spierwit blyven. (it's a mixture of the traditional one and a little from ANS, I don't use the apostrophes because like in the word blyv'n is pronounced as "bliem" and this is confusing because bak'n [bake] is also pronounced differently like "bakng".)
(Translation of the text: If a person doesn't go outside much then he won't have a tanned look, but will be pale white.)
Servien
2005/7/5, Boris Lohnzweiger BorisLohnzweiger@web.de:
Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch.
Ok "Patentplatt" or "Fernsehplatt" (TV Platt) as it is called sometimes - that really seems to happen. I think that word is less misleading. Of course, different people will have different views on what is unique and what is not. Languages like German or French have had established unified standards for centuries, so there is hardly ever any doubt what's linguistically correct or not at de: or fr:. Obviously, at nds: you don`t have that degree of unambiguousness. I would really appreciate any efforts to improve the linguistic quality of the Low Saxon Wikipedia. After all, it is still at an early stage. Unfortunetaly, I can't really help here for, being a native in High German, I'd probably only worsen the problem of "Patentplatt".
A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography: Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un > "dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
Where does that come from? The vocabulary is mostly alright. But the spelling looks awfully articifial to me. Never before have I seen anyone using "y" in written Platt. And why should you write "v" when you say "f". Just too make look "less German"? Also, the diphtong "ou" might somehow reflect the pronounciation but is certainly not usually used in Northern Germany. And why should one want to use "kk" instead of "ck"? Just because it's written that way in the Netherlands?? And why is there an apostrophe in " Elv' "? Just because the word is "Elbe" in High German. Complete nonsense, in my humble opinion. I don't want to comment comment on the "real Platt" word "kuntray" but the "I" at the beginning of the last sentence is either Bavarian or English but surely not Platt.
Coming from the "Ünner-Elv'" myself, let me try it:
Liek so kannst dat in'n poor Dialekten vun de Ünnerelv (in Hamborg un ümto) ook seggen. "Wat" kann dor in düsse/sükse Fällen liek as "dat" un "de" bruken. Ick/Ik do dat ook faken, man tomeest wenn ick/ik snack.
Hmm...
Boris
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com, wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 08:34:13:
Hi Boris,
I'm a bit perplexed as this accusation has been made by a number of people on Lowlands-l, most of the accusers being native speakers of Low German, and at least one (RF Hahn) also speaking Missingsch. Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch".
Accusations: "Unalike the Laich Saxon edeetion whase warkers dinna actually ken the leid. (It's oor Jonny's pet plaint, his windmill faes, an that richtly.)"
"It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current WikiPlatt team. Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that. But they don't know the language well enough. Much or most of it is "Patentplatt" (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of German. I am not at all opposed to introducing technical neologisms, but there needs to be first of all a firm grasp of the basic language, the grammar and the authentic idiom."
Information on Patentplatt: "The number of Lowlands Saxon speakers ... would be large if it included people who are somewhat conversant ... and it would be even larger if it included those who ... can really only manage lexically, idiomatically and grammatically deficient, German-based, "made-up Platt" (Patentplatt)."
This is very concerning, and is clearly a major factor in the difficulty people from the Netherlands are having reading NDS.wiki. I just dashed off an e-mail to Ron to remind him that he is always welcome to "fix" the Patentplatt, because of course it's Wikipedia.
Obviously, this isn't the only factor, and I'm not sure if it's even the greatest factor. But, I feel that we should explore that.
A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un "dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
Hmm...
Best Mark
On 04/07/05, Boris Lohnzweiger BorisLohnzweiger@web.de wrote:
Hi Mark!
I was quite perplexed to read that they write Missingsch in the Low Saxon Wikipedia. So I just went there and checked out ten random pages. Having grown up in a rural area near Hamburg, it`s easy for me tell apart Low Saxon from Missingsch. The whole issue seems to be very exaggerated. All ten articles I've read were without a doubt in Plattdüütsch. Of course single articles might not be - I haven`t checked the whole Wikipedia. However, one can note that depending on the subject of the article the share of words that very closely resemble standard German words or are even identical (in writing !) is sometimes quite high. But this is a usual phenomenon in Low Saxon. Generally speaking, the more scientific a text gets the closer it comes to Hochdeutsch. Surely, sometimes this can lead to the fact that certain passages of articles don`t look too much like Platt. This can been seen very clearly in this article: http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilia . It has two sections, both written by the same author, as far as I can tell. The first ("Norddüütsche Slangen") is very "pure" Low Saxon. The second ("Systematik") looks very much like standard German, due to its topic. I think even without knowing both languages in detail you can easily tell the difference. But this is not to be confused with Missingsch. You just couldn`t say that differently or more "real", if you want.
I don`t who actually brought up this Missingsch issue (native speaker? hobby linguist?). But as a matter of fact, nds-WP is written in Low Saxon. If individual pages are in other languages (which to some degree happens in many Wikipedias) the guys at nds can certainly cope with that. However, I disbelieve that this part of the reason native speakers of Low Saxon in the Netherlands ask for a separate WP.
Boris
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com, wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 04.07.05 01:38:06:
Also, it seems to me that Walter, Wouter, and Servien are intent on ignoring the issue of nds.wiki being in Missingsch rather than real nds. But this is a real issue, and we need to deal with it. I have personally received complaints from members of lowlands-l about nds.wiki being in Missingsch, which is not actually Low Saxon but rather a "contact variety".
Surely, mutual intelligiblity would be increased very much if this huge problem were solved. I'm sure one of the main problems is the fact that it's written in Missingsch.
Perhaps before starting nds-nl.wiki, somebody should start real-nds.wiki, and after that we can see if things are any better.
Mark
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