On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Magnus Manske wrote:
"Hr. Daniel Mikkelsen" daniel@copyleft.no wrote:
Is this really what we want? To have articles decide layout and colors? I think this is a very scary development - this is the same thing that happened to the web in the early days, and look where we are now! Next thing, we have [[flash:fun.swf]]!
IMHO, it is a Good Thing to have all articles within the same encyclopedia that deal with similar content to use similar layout.
Are you actually saing: "It is a Good Thing to have different layout for different groups of articles within the same encyclopedia." ?
Because we already _have_ the same layout for similar content. Everything has the same layout.
Perhaps you aren't thinking about layout, but items of content? Such as specs for a country. There is no conflict between including such standard content in all such articles, and avoiding the use of author-driven coloring and layout.
It would also help to develop a reputation as a source of knowledge, compared to a "random dump of factoids".
I just can't see how you reach this conclusion. Nothing exudes knowledge like pure content, without bells and whistles, color and flash.
Of course, an editor can still use it as the latter, but there should be an easy way to make wikipedia look a little more "organized" than the whole web. After all, we apply our own standards on content, why not on style and layout as well, where it makes sense?
Wikipedia already IS more "organized" than the whole web. Articles look the same, work in the same interface, link cleanly to eachother, are available in printable format, etc. The web, on the other hand, is a total mess of flash, frames, incompatible "standards", bad layout, and abuse of markup (tables for layout, etc.).
Why not apply our own standards on style and layout as well? Because there is simply no need for this! Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a Powerpoint slide! And because once you open up colors and layout it _will_ be abused. People _will_ use colors to encode content (see the periodic table), which means we _will_ lose the ability to transfer cleanly to other media (such as voice or print).
In addition, as has been mentioned here again and again, layout and styling will complicate markup, and this will scare away writers - and writers are more important than readers.
If one must have differently colored tables in, say, plant articles and country articles, then let that be a property of the article, not the tables. Then get the Wikipedia programmers to add some kind of category system which in turn can determine the style sheet used (by HTML) in the tables. Sounds horrible? I agree, but this is basically the same as styling tables directly, only less intrusive and more forward compatible.
Another thing I already find quite upsetting is the tendency to use right aligned "floating" tables. What is the use of this? It disociates the table from the page, making it much more difficult for an alternate rendering agent to determine where to put it (when to read it out aloud, for instance).
Okay, I notice I'm getting myself worked up here, so I'll stop. But please, can't you all see that this is the road to disaster?
-- Daniel
Another thing I already find quite upsetting is the tendency to use right aligned "floating" tables. What is the use of this? It disociates the table from the page, making it much more difficult for an alternate rendering agent to determine where to put it (when to read it out aloud, for instance).
Okay, I notice I'm getting myself worked up here, so I'll stop. But please, can't you all see that this is the road to disaster?
I second the comment on right-aligned tables. They force content that flows to the left of the table to be far too narrow to read -- unless one widens the entire window, and then the full-width content is too wide to read comfortably.
Tables should be within the flow as a block in their own right, likewise images.
I'm tempted to add "powerpoint slide" to the "what wikipedia is not" page ... :-)
On Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 11:52:22AM +0100, tarquin wrote:
Another thing I already find quite upsetting is the tendency to use right aligned "floating" tables. What is the use of this? It disociates the table from the page, making it much more difficult for an alternate rendering agent to determine where to put it (when to read it out aloud, for instance).
I second the comment on right-aligned tables.
I also second it, but with a small addendum. On my browser/screen combination a non-floating figure will have a lot of valuable whitespace left or right of it and such an article will therefore require less scrolling or may even fit on one screen. So although I agree with Daniel that the article itself should not determine if a figure floats or not, I would like to have a skin or user option that has all figures floating to the right (or left).
-- Jan Hidders
On Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 12:43:18PM +0200, Hr. Daniel Mikkelsen wrote:
Okay, I notice I'm getting myself worked up here, so I'll stop. But please, can't you all see that this is the road to disaster?
I agree with many of your point but what is "this" in your sentence above? I would say that the CSS + simple table mark-up without formatting nicely separates formatting from content, so what do you think is wrong with it?
-- Jan Hidders
On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Jan Hidders wrote:
Okay, I notice I'm getting myself worked up here, so I'll stop. But please, can't you all see that this is the road to disaster?
I agree with many of your point but what is "this" in your sentence above? I would say that the CSS + simple table mark-up without formatting nicely separates formatting from content, so what do you think is wrong with it?
Sorry, I was worked up. With "this" I meant the move towards excessive table syntax, and breakage of form-free content. I agree that CSS + simple table markup is ideal.
-- Daniel
On Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 11:45:11PM +0200, Hr. Daniel Mikkelsen wrote:
Sorry, I was worked up. With "this" I meant the move towards excessive table syntax, and breakage of form-free content. I agree that CSS + simple table markup is ideal.
I'm wondering if it shouldn't be (server-side) XSL + simple table markup. Does anybody of the CSS experts know if it is powerful enough to generate a Demographics table as found on [[Netherlands]] from a simple demographics table?
-- Jan Hidders
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