I am very sad that I have to report this, but Node is deleting stub articles in the Yiddish wikipedia. This happens to be a language that I can read, so I know what the text says. Yes, they are stubbish, but they are the beginnings of articles, and at least there is some activity. I do not know why Node has decided to delete those articles, as there is no explanation. It doesnt matter if it is a stub about Reb Elimelech of Lizensk or Brittaney Spears (both of which he deleted by the way).
To Node, I am asking you to stop dealing with languages you do not know. Let the smaller language Wikipedias grow naturally, without interference from non-speakers.
Danny
I knew what the articles said just as much as you did.
A page that says "_______ is a brother of [[________]]" and have the other article just link back, in addition to using incorrect orthography, is not even on the level of a stub, as is the case with an article simply saying "a singer".
Mark
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:12:07 EST, daniwo59@aol.com daniwo59@aol.com wrote:
I am very sad that I have to report this, but Node is deleting stub articles in the Yiddish wikipedia. This happens to be a language that I can read, so I know what the text says. Yes, they are stubbish, but they are the beginnings of articles, and at least there is some activity. I do not know why Node has decided to delete those articles, as there is no explanation. It doesnt matter if it is a stub about Reb Elimelech of Lizensk or Brittaney Spears (both of which he deleted by the way).
To Node, I am asking you to stop dealing with languages you do not know. Let the smaller language Wikipedias grow naturally, without interference from non-speakers.
Danny _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
In addition, I have involved Refoyl Finkl, a native speaker and computer scientist.
I think it's very interesting that you are so upset about me interfering in Wikipedias in languages I do not know and asking me to let them grow naturally when you yourself support proposals to lock inactive Wikipedias, far from letting them grow naturally.
Mark
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:12:07 EST, daniwo59@aol.com daniwo59@aol.com wrote:
I am very sad that I have to report this, but Node is deleting stub articles in the Yiddish wikipedia. This happens to be a language that I can read, so I know what the text says. Yes, they are stubbish, but they are the beginnings of articles, and at least there is some activity. I do not know why Node has decided to delete those articles, as there is no explanation. It doesnt matter if it is a stub about Reb Elimelech of Lizensk or Brittaney Spears (both of which he deleted by the way).
To Node, I am asking you to stop dealing with languages you do not know. Let the smaller language Wikipedias grow naturally, without interference from non-speakers.
Danny _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On Nov 28, 2004, at 12:50 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
In addition, I have involved Refoyl Finkl, a native speaker and computer scientist.
I think it's very interesting that you are so upset about me interfering in Wikipedias in languages I do not know and asking me to let them grow naturally when you yourself support proposals to lock inactive Wikipedias, far from letting them grow naturally.
Mark
Your accusations are out of line Mr. Williamson. You owe the list an apology.
Agreed. Very out of line.
John Lee ([[en:User:Johnleemk]])
Stirling Newberry wrote:
On Nov 28, 2004, at 12:50 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
In addition, I have involved Refoyl Finkl, a native speaker and computer scientist.
I think it's very interesting that you are so upset about me interfering in Wikipedias in languages I do not know and asking me to let them grow naturally when you yourself support proposals to lock inactive Wikipedias, far from letting them grow naturally.
Mark
Your accusations are out of line Mr. Williamson. You owe the list an apology.
What accusations are you talking about, exactly, anyways? If you tell me accusations are out of line, can you at least let me know which ones?
Mark
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 02:51:46 +0800, John Lee johnleemk@gawab.com wrote:
Agreed. Very out of line.
John Lee ([[en:User:Johnleemk]])
Stirling Newberry wrote:
On Nov 28, 2004, at 12:50 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
In addition, I have involved Refoyl Finkl, a native speaker and computer scientist.
I think it's very interesting that you are so upset about me interfering in Wikipedias in languages I do not know and asking me to let them grow naturally when you yourself support proposals to lock inactive Wikipedias, far from letting them grow naturally.
Mark
Your accusations are out of line Mr. Williamson. You owe the list an apology.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On Nov 28, 2004, at 3:04 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
What accusations are you talking about, exactly, anyways? If you tell me accusations are out of line, can you at least let me know which ones?
Mark
If you aren't capable of understanding what you write, then you should think more before writing it.
So you are accusing me of something, but then are not willing to back it up with evidence?
Mark
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:50:38 -0500, Stirling Newberry stirling.newberry@xigenics.net wrote:
On Nov 28, 2004, at 3:04 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
What accusations are you talking about, exactly, anyways? If you tell me accusations are out of line, can you at least let me know which ones?
Mark
If you aren't capable of understanding what you write, then you should think more before writing it.
If you're not willing to substantiate a claim with evidence, but rather prefer to make it and then try to get out of it later by telling me to stop wasting your time, it's probably better if you don't do it in the first place.
Mark
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:02:07 -0500, Stirling Newberry stirling.newberry@xigenics.net wrote:
On Nov 28, 2004, at 3:54 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
So you are accusing me of something, but then are not willing to back it up with evidence?
Mark
Stop trying to waste my time.
"I think it's very interesting that you are so upset about me interfering in Wikipedias in languages I do not know and asking me to let them grow naturally when you yourself support proposals to lock inactive Wikipedias, far from letting them grow naturally."
I belive this is what's previously refered to. And i might add that i think it's a little bit strange that you are deleting articles on minority wikis when you are such a advocate of them.
mvh.
Lars Alvik
På 28. nov. 2004 kl. 21.54 skrev Mark Williamson:
So you are accusing me of something, but then are not willing to back it up with evidence?
Mark
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:50:38 -0500, Stirling Newberry stirling.newberry@xigenics.net wrote:
On Nov 28, 2004, at 3:04 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
What accusations are you talking about, exactly, anyways? If you tell me accusations are out of line, can you at least let me know which ones?
Mark
If you aren't capable of understanding what you write, then you should think more before writing it.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Ahh. Well, I don't see how exactly that is an accusation or what is wrong with it. Danny *has* supported such proposals. That is a fact, not an accusation. And locking a Wikipedia is obviously not letting it grow naturally, you can't edit it if it were locked.
And this is no different from me blanking vandalism on other small Wikipedias. These articles are so short, not even substubs, not even complete sentences, that they are basically nothing more than vandalism.
I do support minority language Wikipedias, but this does not mean I support vandalism and other such things, for example the recent events at ch.wikipedia (Chamorro), which are probably just about as bad this, with the difference that I don't speak Chamorro more than a couple of words, and my ability to understand it beyond Spanish loanwords is nil.
Mark
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 22:02:47 +0100, Lars Alvik lars@slappfisk.net wrote:
"I think it's very interesting that you are so upset about me interfering in Wikipedias in languages I do not know and asking me to let them grow naturally when you yourself support proposals to lock inactive Wikipedias, far from letting them grow naturally."
I belive this is what's previously refered to. And i might add that i think it's a little bit strange that you are deleting articles on minority wikis when you are such a advocate of them.
mvh.
Lars Alvik
På 28. nov. 2004 kl. 21.54 skrev Mark Williamson:
So you are accusing me of something, but then are not willing to back it up with evidence?
Mark
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:50:38 -0500, Stirling Newberry stirling.newberry@xigenics.net wrote:
On Nov 28, 2004, at 3:04 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
What accusations are you talking about, exactly, anyways? If you tell me accusations are out of line, can you at least let me know which ones?
Mark
If you aren't capable of understanding what you write, then you should think more before writing it.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
I don't see the problem as long as they accualy had a meaning in Yiddish, i don't know Yiddish well (not at all infact), but what i have gathered from your last mails is that they where stubs, not a reason for deletion in itself. But i've also got the feeling that it's more to this than you accualy tell.
And since everyone else is probably sick and tired of me feeding trolls i should stop right now.
mvh.
Lars Alvik
På 29. nov. 2004 kl. 04.26 skrev Mark Williamson:
Ahh. Well, I don't see how exactly that is an accusation or what is wrong with it. Danny *has* supported such proposals. That is a fact, not an accusation. And locking a Wikipedia is obviously not letting it grow naturally, you can't edit it if it were locked.
And this is no different from me blanking vandalism on other small Wikipedias. These articles are so short, not even substubs, not even complete sentences, that they are basically nothing more than vandalism.
I do support minority language Wikipedias, but this does not mean I support vandalism and other such things, for example the recent events at ch.wikipedia (Chamorro), which are probably just about as bad this, with the difference that I don't speak Chamorro more than a couple of words, and my ability to understand it beyond Spanish loanwords is nil.
Mark
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 22:02:47 +0100, Lars Alvik lars@slappfisk.net wrote:
"I think it's very interesting that you are so upset about me interfering in Wikipedias in languages I do not know and asking me to let them grow naturally when you yourself support proposals to lock inactive Wikipedias, far from letting them grow naturally."
I belive this is what's previously refered to. And i might add that i think it's a little bit strange that you are deleting articles on minority wikis when you are such a advocate of them.
mvh.
Lars Alvik
På 28. nov. 2004 kl. 21.54 skrev Mark Williamson:
So you are accusing me of something, but then are not willing to back it up with evidence?
Mark
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:50:38 -0500, Stirling Newberry stirling.newberry@xigenics.net wrote:
On Nov 28, 2004, at 3:04 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
What accusations are you talking about, exactly, anyways? If you tell me accusations are out of line, can you at least let me know which ones?
Mark
If you aren't capable of understanding what you write, then you should think more before writing it.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
I don't see the problem as long as they accualy had a meaning in Yiddish, i don't know Yiddish well (not at all infact), but what i have gathered from your last mails is that they where stubs, not a reason for deletion in itself. But i've also got the feeling that it's more to this than you accualy tell.
Well, I think that sub-substubs like "a singer" would also be deleted at any other Wikipedia. ~~~~
Indeed - perhaps if they were full sentences (and in the case of the two brothers, if they didn't simply link back to each other), it would be OK.
In addition, this is 4 edits we're talking about here, they were not against policy, when reverted by the original editor I did not re-revert them, and when I was banned it was nearly 24 hours later.
Mark
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:46:24 +0100 (CET), Fallout fallout@lexx.eu.org wrote:
I don't see the problem as long as they accualy had a meaning in Yiddish, i don't know Yiddish well (not at all infact), but what i have gathered from your last mails is that they where stubs, not a reason for deletion in itself. But i've also got the feeling that it's more to this than you accualy tell.
Well, I think that sub-substubs like "a singer" would also be deleted at any other Wikipedia. ~~~~
-- Ausir
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On 29 Nov 2004, at 08:46, Fallout wrote:
Well, I think that sub-substubs like "a singer" would also be deleted at any other Wikipedia. ~~~~
-- Ausir
Are you sure? http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Pomme&oldid=18085 http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomme
;-)
-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]] www.ropersonline.com
On Nov 29, 2004, at 2:14 PM, Jens Ropers wrote:
On 29 Nov 2004, at 08:46, Fallout wrote:
Well, I think that sub-substubs like "a singer" would also be deleted at any other Wikipedia. ~~~~
-- Ausir
Are you sure? http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Pomme&oldid=18085 http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomme
;-) \
the other solution to a sub-stub is to expand it. People who can't expand a sub-stub because they are not language proficient should not be deleting them. As well what is a "sub-stub" is community defined by editors, and therefore should be left in each community to their own understanding of the level of activity.
In short, if you can't fix it, you shouldn't be running around deleting it.
Two out of the four pages weren't even substubs. They were sub-sentences.
And this is four pages we're talking about, where the text was restored within hours by the original editor, and when that happened I did not revert it.
I'm beginning to wonder if you hold a grudge against me personally, given the things you have said in private and public correspondence.
Mark
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 02:32:30 -0500, Stirling Newberry stirling.newberry@xigenics.net wrote:
On Nov 29, 2004, at 2:14 PM, Jens Ropers wrote:
On 29 Nov 2004, at 08:46, Fallout wrote:
Well, I think that sub-substubs like "a singer" would also be deleted at any other Wikipedia. ~~~~
-- Ausir
Are you sure? http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Pomme&oldid=18085 http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomme
;-) \
the other solution to a sub-stub is to expand it. People who can't expand a sub-stub because they are not language proficient should not be deleting them. As well what is a "sub-stub" is community defined by editors, and therefore should be left in each community to their own understanding of the level of activity.
In short, if you can't fix it, you shouldn't be running around deleting it.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:51:32 -0700, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder if you hold a grudge against me personally, given the things you have said in private and public correspondence.
Well, I definitely react "Not again!" each time your name comes up.
Andre Engels
There are a number of differences here.
At the time that was written, fr.wikipedia was young, while it is not anymore.
Second of all, it is the sort of article which all languages should have, and is timeless. It is more notable than Britney Spears, Yiddish folk-heroes, and arguably more notable than "America", although that one is debatable (Apples can be found in plenty of geographical regions; America can only be found in the Western Hemisphere).
Third of all, it is a complete sentence. It is not simply "un fruit", nor does it say "pommes sont un type de [[fruit]]" with [[Fruit]] saying exclusively "Types de fruit: [[pomme]]s". (excuse my poor French), nor does it say "Une pomme n'est pas une [[poire]]" with [[Poire]] saying "Une poire n'est pas une [[pomme]]"
If the Britney Spears article said "בריִטניִ ספּיִרס יז אַ [[פּאָפּולערע זיגערין|פּאָפּולערע זיגער]]" ("Britney Spears is a [[popular singer]]") with an actual article of at least stub quality at the "Popular Singer" page, it could reasonably be considered a substub, but even if there was no article at "Popular Singer" I probably wouldn'tve touched it, had it been an actual sentence.
The same thing goes for the America article. There was and is no text at the article for continent, so a two-word article on America which isn't even a full sentence cannot reasonably be considered a substub.
Mark
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:14:20 +0100, Jens Ropers ropers@ropersonline.com wrote:
On 29 Nov 2004, at 08:46, Fallout wrote:
Well, I think that sub-substubs like "a singer" would also be deleted at any other Wikipedia. ~~~~
-- Ausir
Are you sure? http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Pomme&oldid=18085 http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomme
;-)
-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]] www.ropersonline.com
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
If you tell me accusations are out of line, can you at least let me know which ones?
You criticised someone Jewish, Mark, and for that hubris you'll pay.
~Ingrid
_________________________________________________________________ MSN Amor: busca tu ½ naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/
Hey hey hey, I'm Jewish too! Does that count for anything?
Mark
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:03:10 +0000, Ingrid Mazeltov ingridmazeltov@hotmail.com wrote:
If you tell me accusations are out of line, can you at least let me know which ones?
You criticised someone Jewish, Mark, and for that hubris you'll pay.
~Ingrid
MSN Amor: busca tu ½ naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
The edits in question:
Blanked אַמעריקאַ ("America"; contents were: א [[קאנטינענט]] "A [[continent]]") Replaced contents of ר' זושא פון אניפאלי ("Reh Zusha fun Lyzensky") with "{{delete}}" (Contents were: א ברודער פון [[ר' אלימלך פון ליזענסק]] "A brother of [[Reh Alymlk fun Lyzensky]]") Replaced contents of ר' אלימלך פון ליזענסק ("Reh Alymlk fun Lyzensky") with "{{delete}}" (Contents were: א ברודער פון [[ר' זושא פון אניפאלי]]. "A brother of [[Reh Zusha fun Lyzensky]]") Replaced contents of בריטני ספיערס ("Britney Spears") with "{{delete}}" (Contents were: א פאפולערע זינגערין "A popular singer")
Note, however, that I left untouched contributions by the same user at around the same time of actual value, such as http://yi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A6%D7%A2%D7%98%D7%99%D7%9C_%D7%A7%D7%98%D7%...
When my contributions were reverted by the user who wrote these articles, I did not engage in any sort of revert war.
I discussed these actions with Jamesday prior to Angela's granting Danny sysophood on a Wikipedia for a language he does not know.
When I respectfully (note the respectfully) requested that Danny remove the contents of http://yi.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Node_ue which he posted, he said he would when I apologised to Acheir for replacing those pages with delete messages.
When I told him I'd actually already apologised and am now engaged in discussions with this user, he told me that that was too bad because he had not contacted the user and that, "since i dont intend to" (he), "you are kinda stuck".
Mark
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:12:07 EST, daniwo59@aol.com daniwo59@aol.com wrote:
I am very sad that I have to report this, but Node is deleting stub articles in the Yiddish wikipedia. This happens to be a language that I can read, so I know what the text says. Yes, they are stubbish, but they are the beginnings of articles, and at least there is some activity. I do not know why Node has decided to delete those articles, as there is no explanation. It doesnt matter if it is a stub about Reb Elimelech of Lizensk or Brittaney Spears (both of which he deleted by the way).
To Node, I am asking you to stop dealing with languages you do not know. Let the smaller language Wikipedias grow naturally, without interference from non-speakers.
Danny _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Sorry for the two messages in a row, but I sent the first accidentally.
Thus, I request that I be unbanned from yi.wikipedia immediately.
I would also like to request that Danny be desysopped given the following facts:
1. He has acted irresponsibly as a sysop. I made 5 edits which were reverted, on a Wikipedia where I have cursory knowledge of the language and can understand the written form (after all, it is a heritage language for me), and did not revert the reversions of my edits. Late the next day - THE NEXT DAY - Danny requested sysophood because there was an "emergency". Although there was an ongoing discussion on the ML and I had not shown myself to be a threat to yi.wikipedia (ie, I did not continuously revert pages), he banned me from the Yiddish Wikipedia permanently.
2. He vandalised my userpage. Perhaps he should be banned from the Tok Pisin Wikipedia, on which he has recently been lurking, since he does not speak Tok Pisin (nor does he claim to)? Unlike him and Tok Pisin, I can read Yiddish and have basic speaking and writing abilities because of actual exposure to the language when I was young. When I requested he remove the text, he denied that request - and in quite a mean-spirited manner.
3. I have until now cleaned up all spam and vandalism on yi.wikipedia, and have not needed sysop status. If further problems of any nature occur in the future, somebody can be sysopped to take care of them. In addition, I have made minor original contributions to yi.wikipedia.
Mark
P.S.
Dori, you were free and still are to delete or fix those stubs. They were, at least, full sentences, and there were no closed loops. You expressed somewhat begrudging approval for my actions (you said something along the lines of allowing them at least in small quantities because they might encourage contributions; thus it was not support but you did not tell me to stop). While I don't have a problem with you not wanting to write new content or expand articles on sq.wikipedia (it can indeed be a chore when the Wikipedia is small), I think that if these grammatical errors and stubs irritate you so much, it is up to you to fix them or delete them (it's not like I am still making them, or like there are tons).
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:31:28 -0700, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
The edits in question:
Blanked אַמעריקאַ ("America"; contents were: א [[קאנטינענט]] "A [[continent]]") Replaced contents of ר' זושא פון אניפאלי ("Reh Zusha fun Lyzensky") with "{{delete}}" (Contents were: א ברודער פון [[ר' אלימלך פון ליזענסק]] "A brother of [[Reh Alymlk fun Lyzensky]]") Replaced contents of ר' אלימלך פון ליזענסק ("Reh Alymlk fun Lyzensky") with "{{delete}}" (Contents were: א ברודער פון [[ר' זושא פון אניפאלי]]. "A brother of [[Reh Zusha fun Lyzensky]]") Replaced contents of בריטני ספיערס ("Britney Spears") with "{{delete}}" (Contents were: א פאפולערע זינגערין "A popular singer")
Note, however, that I left untouched contributions by the same user at around the same time of actual value, such as http://yi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A6%D7%A2%D7%98%D7%99%D7%9C_%D7%A7%D7%98%D7%...
When my contributions were reverted by the user who wrote these articles, I did not engage in any sort of revert war.
I discussed these actions with Jamesday prior to Angela's granting Danny sysophood on a Wikipedia for a language he does not know.
When I respectfully (note the respectfully) requested that Danny remove the contents of http://yi.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Node_ue which he posted, he said he would when I apologised to Acheir for replacing those pages with delete messages.
When I told him I'd actually already apologised and am now engaged in discussions with this user, he told me that that was too bad because he had not contacted the user and that, "since i dont intend to" (he), "you are kinda stuck".
Mark
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:12:07 EST, daniwo59@aol.com daniwo59@aol.com wrote:
I am very sad that I have to report this, but Node is deleting stub articles in the Yiddish wikipedia. This happens to be a language that I can read, so I know what the text says. Yes, they are stubbish, but they are the beginnings of articles, and at least there is some activity. I do not know why Node has decided to delete those articles, as there is no explanation. It doesnt matter if it is a stub about Reb Elimelech of Lizensk or Brittaney Spears (both of which he deleted by the way).
To Node, I am asking you to stop dealing with languages you do not know. Let the smaller language Wikipedias grow naturally, without interference from non-speakers.
Danny _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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