I have seen a request form a person who has a entry on the English language Wikipedia to remove his date of birth because he fears identity theft. He is a USA-citizens.
At first glance that seems to me a very strange reason to request to remove that information. How can you steal someones identity??
From the day of my bright until the day that I day that I die all my
movements are tracked in the national population register of Belgium. I have a electronic identity card, a electronic national medical insurance card. Most databaseses of the government functions are interconnected to exchange information about the citizens. There is not much the government does not know. (*) So how the hell can you steal some ones identify?
But I understand that things are very, very different in the USA regarding that. That there no way to verify someone identify. That you can get a visa-card whit a drivers licence ID and a drivers licence with the Visa-card as identification. And that this is also the reason that Americans are not enthusiastic to give you there bank account number because there is no good protection against abuse.
So when you look at it that way I would be scared also for identify theft if I where living in the USA.
Would it not be reasonable to consider the local circumstances when putting information in the articles?
Greetings, Walter
On 1/29/06, Walter Vermeir walter@wikipedia.be wrote:
I have seen a request form a person who has a entry on the English language Wikipedia to remove his date of birth because he fears identity theft. He is a USA-citizens.
If there is evidence to confirm it, then Wikipedia is not going to add to his problems. If there is no evidence, it should be removed anyway. I don't see why this is any different to any other request of the remove-my-personal-information-because-I-say-so type.
-- Sam
On 29/01/06, Walter Vermeir walter@wikipedia.be wrote:
I have seen a request form a person who has a entry on the English language Wikipedia to remove his date of birth because he fears identity theft. He is a USA-citizens.
At first glance that seems to me a very strange reason to request to remove that information. How can you steal someones identity??
Basically, I take all the personal information I can gather about one "Vermeir, W.", and use it to... well, impersonate you. I take out loans in your name, or run up debts against you, or use your identity instead of mine in order to do various nefarious acts. More "unlawful borrowing" than "stealing", since the person doesn't lose their identity per se, but it's a catchy phrase.
And every little bit of data helps - the more questions about "my" identity I can answer, the more it seems to someone on the other end of a phoneline that, yes, I do own that bank account or credit card or small business. It's not common - certainly not as common as it's sometimes implied - but it is on the rise, it does happen, and I can understand someone being very burned over it.
(Incidentally, if this is the case I think it is, I'd have no problems with what he's requesting - just say "born 1978" or whatever. But other sites, which we link to, have the full date...)
-- - Andrew Gray andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
It is not that your identity so far as the state or federal government is stolen. Identity theft refers to someone gaining sufficient access to your personal information that it is possible to access your credit card accounts and bank accounts or create new ones. What they are stealing is your credit rating. They can then run up a big bill and leave you with it; the banks and credit companies may forgive the debt, but straightening your credit rating will be difficult and time consuming, or expensive (if you hire it done).
I suspect the same thing could happen to a Belgium citizen.
Could a person armed with your identity card open up a line of credit without you knowing it.? Could they get a "lost" identity card issued in your name to them?
Fred
On Jan 29, 2006, at 1:55 AM, Walter Vermeir wrote:
I have seen a request form a person who has a entry on the English language Wikipedia to remove his date of birth because he fears identity theft. He is a USA-citizens.
At first glance that seems to me a very strange reason to request to remove that information. How can you steal someones identity??
From the day of my bright until the day that I day that I die all my
movements are tracked in the national population register of Belgium. I have a electronic identity card, a electronic national medical insurance card. Most databaseses of the government functions are interconnected to exchange information about the citizens. There is not much the government does not know. (*) So how the hell can you steal some ones identify?
But I understand that things are very, very different in the USA regarding that. That there no way to verify someone identify. That you can get a visa-card whit a drivers licence ID and a drivers licence with the Visa-card as identification. And that this is also the reason that Americans are not enthusiastic to give you there bank account number because there is no good protection against abuse.
So when you look at it that way I would be scared also for identify theft if I where living in the USA.
Would it not be reasonable to consider the local circumstances when putting information in the articles?
Greetings, Walter
-- Contact: walter AT wikizine DOT org Wikizine.org - news for and about the Wikimedia community
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On 1/29/06, Fred Bauder fredbaud@ctelco.net wrote:
It is not that your identity so far as the state or federal government is stolen. Identity theft refers to someone gaining sufficient access to your personal information that it is possible to access your credit card accounts and bank accounts or create new ones. What they are stealing is your credit rating. They can then run up a big bill and leave you with it; the banks and credit companies may forgive the debt, but straightening your credit rating will be difficult and time consuming, or expensive (if you hire it done).
Can someone really "run up a big bill and leave you with it"? I thought your authorization was needed in order to enter into a loan.
IOW, I thought that while the credit reporting agencies might report the outstanding loan, no court would actually attempt to enforce such a loan.
Straightening out your credit rating can occassionally be difficult, but the vast majority of the time it's actually quite straightforward. Actually getting a bank to "forgive" a debt on the other hand...
Anthony
On 1/29/06, Anthony DiPierro wikilegal@inbox.org wrote:
Can someone really "run up a big bill and leave you with it"? I thought your authorization was needed in order to enter into a loan.
But they got 'your' authorization.
IOW, I thought that while the credit reporting agencies might report the outstanding loan, no court would actually attempt to enforce such a loan.
Straightening out your credit rating can occassionally be difficult, but the vast majority of the time it's actually quite straightforward. Actually getting a bank to "forgive" a debt on the other hand...
The challenge can be convincing them it wasn't you... once you've done that it's just a matter of getting people to apply some common sense.
On 1/29/06, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
On 1/29/06, Anthony DiPierro wikilegal@inbox.org wrote:
Can someone really "run up a big bill and leave you with it"? I thought your authorization was needed in order to enter into a loan.
But they got 'your' authorization.
They got the authorization of someone pretending to be you. If that's what you mean by "your", then yeah. Granted, it might be hard to get it off your credit report, as that might ultimately require *initiating* a lawsuit, but Fred seemed to imply that the "victim" (that is, the person whose identity was being used) was actually responsible for the loan just because someone used their personal information without their authorization!
IOW, I thought that while the credit reporting agencies might report the outstanding loan, no court would actually attempt to enforce such a loan.
Straightening out your credit rating can occassionally be difficult, but the vast majority of the time it's actually quite straightforward. Actually getting a bank to "forgive" a debt on the other hand...
The challenge can be convincing them it wasn't you... once you've done that it's just a matter of getting people to apply some common sense.
In the few cases I've personally witnessed where there were false items on someone's credit report, the creditors have been fairly easy to convince to remove the information from the report. One thing that does help is contacting the creditor first, because the credit reporting agency is pretty much always going to believe them (and the law largely backs them up in this position). "Identity theft" can definitely be a nightmare in the case of a stubborn creditor or a really well executed attack, but I've always assumed the person who actually loses the money is the creditor, barring some sort of negligence on the part of the "victim".
Anthony
On 29/01/06, Anthony DiPierro wikilegal@inbox.org wrote:
On 1/29/06, Fred Bauder fredbaud@ctelco.net wrote:
It is not that your identity so far as the state or federal government is stolen. Identity theft refers to someone gaining sufficient access to your personal information that it is possible to access your credit card accounts and bank accounts or create new ones. What they are stealing is your credit rating. They can then run up a big bill and leave you with it; the banks and credit companies may forgive the debt, but straightening your credit rating will be difficult and time consuming, or expensive (if you hire it done).
Can someone really "run up a big bill and leave you with it"? I thought your authorization was needed in order to enter into a loan.
If I can redirect your mail to me, fake your signature, and convincingly impersonate you on the phone... there's not much need for any more authorisation. Sure, the loans and so on may all be resolvable, in the end, but the loss of earnings, loss of confidence, can all mount up. Nasty stuff.
And it can get insane. The worst case I've yet heard of involved selling someone's house from under them - http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/08/identity_thief.html
-- - Andrew Gray andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
Fred Bauder schreef: [cut]
I suspect the same thing could happen to a Belgium citizen.
Could a person armed with your identity card open up a line of credit without you knowing it.? Could they get a "lost" identity card issued in your name to them?
Fred
I asked some one who works at the bank about this. It is not as save as I was thinking.
In Belgium you have now 3 types of ID-cards
- the new electronic ID-cart. Contains a chip with secured information. With the card and your personal pin code you can identify your self legally. Used for things like your income tax declaration.
- the old ID-card, plastic. Not electronic. The replacement of all ID-cards by electronic ID-cards is in progress but it takes time to replace them all.
- the 19th century-style ID-card ; only paper with a picture physical attached on it with a seal on it. Used for foreigners en refugees. Those will also be replaced soon by the electronic ID-card but it is not yet so
Situation in Belgium for KBC (major Belgium bank);
To open a bank account; - if you use a stolen ID card there no systematical check of that card is stolen or not. Lists of the ID-numbers of stolen cards exist but are not normally used to check the status of a ID-card.
- if you have an electronic ID-card the information of the chip is read-out. This contains your name, date of bight, address, national registration number and a photo. The function that the card supports to identify yourself with the pin code is not used. The only benefit that you with the electronic ID-card is the you can be sure the the card and the information is valid. Of the person using that card it that person you can not be sure.
Fake cards; so long the card is made good and is non-electronic the bank can not check them of the are real. There is not check of the registration numbers are valid and of those match of those on the card.
But if your able to open a bank account you will not be able to max out your credit and disappear. New customers do not get credit. And the system that is common is some countrys that you do not have to pay your credit card bill at the end of the month but only the interest is not commonly used and only given if the bank really knows that you can pay for it. Not for a guy who just opened an account.
If you try to get a loan the bank receives the information of all loans and credit lines that this person has by any Belgian credit company. And also of the are paying them back or not. So it is not possible to get several loans on the same person.
So it is not so good as it could be. The total roll out of the electronic ID card, and if the function of the pin code is used should make it safer.
On 1/29/06, Walter Vermeir walter@wikipedia.be wrote:
I have seen a request form a person who has a entry on the English language Wikipedia to remove his date of birth because he fears identity theft. He is a USA-citizens.
This seems clearly a verifiability issue. If his dob is publicly verifiable, then having it on wikipedia creates no additional risk for him. If not, someone who knows him is a wikipedian and they added it, then it should be removed as not verifiable. And we don't have to bother with the identity theft issue.
Jim
This seems clearly a verifiability issue. If his dob is publicly verifiable, then having it on wikipedia creates no additional risk for him. If not, someone who knows him is a wikipedian and they added it, then it should be removed as not verifiable. And we don't have to bother with the identity theft issue. Jim
This person's birthdate is also available at IMDb, actually...
"Pawe³ Dembowski" fallout@lexx.eu.org wrote in message news:1172514620.20060129231510@lexx.eu.org...
This seems clearly a verifiability issue. If his dob is publicly verifiable, then having it on wikipedia creates no additional risk for him. If not, someone who knows him is a wikipedian and they added it, then it should be removed as not verifiable. And we don't have to bother with the identity theft issue.
This person's birthdate is also available at IMDb, actually...
Then he's out of luck, given the glacial pace of their editing mechanisms...
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