Reading the neutral point of view policy page it's plain to see that we should never, in wikivoice, call subjects of articles disparaging names. Even if it has been repeatedly used to describe the subject of the article, even if the sources are reliable sources, Wikipedia must remain neutral. It's not a matter of whether it is verifiable, nor whether there is consensus. It's a matter of what is neutral. Too many times I see partisans edit a page or demand an edit to a locked page that uses disparaging language about a person, group, or event, and their edits are reverted or demands to edit are ignored. They are told that consensus among experience editors has decided that the verifiability of the phrasing is supported by reliable sources. Verifiability and consensus are explicitly not able to overrule neutrality, per the policy on neutral point of view. I did watch Katherine Maher's TED talk about verifiability versus truth (it was recommended to me when I brought this subject to the IRC channels) but this is not an issue of truth. It may be true that somebody is a jerk. It may be true that reliable sources verifiably call them a jerk. But it is not neutral to call them a jerk in wikivoice. Statements of this nature, if they are of encyclopedic value, must be attributed to the source that has made it. This is not about any particular article, but I will point out that many Biographies of Living Persons especially those that are politically involved or tangentially politically involved suffer from this exact problem. Given the guidance on those articles specifically, it seems to me this matter should be regarded with urgency. So what is to be done? Should we write another policy clarifying essay? I don't think so. I think we need a task force to find and eliminate non-neutral statements. While I think that many of them will likely be removed entirely with an honest reading of the neutral point of view policy, I think that it's reasonable that most of them will stand when they are couched correctly and attributed to their sources. I also think that we need to take an honest hard look at what has happened to neutral point of view. I have repeatedly been told that I am having a problem understanding verifiability not truth, but verifiability does not overrule neutrality. When I bring it up repeatedly I'm told that I'm being disruptive, but consensus does not overrule neutrality. I know that my edit history is thin as many editors are concerned, but that should not be interpreted to mean that I don't know what I'm saying or that I can't read or understand what's being said. I don't believe that this is stemming from any sort of genuine bias or misunderstanding of policy, only a disagreement with how policy interpretations have evolved over the course of the project. -- commie _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list -- wikipedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to wikipedia-l-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org