I just noticed that in addition to the Spanish/Castilian wikipedia at http://es.wikipedia.com/wiki.cgi?Portada (using the old, ugly and difficult to use UseMod wikiware) with 1400 articles there is a very lively FDL�d Spanish wiki encyclopedia at http://enciclopedia.us.es/ (using php wikiware) with nearly 9,000 articles.
Did the Spanish wikipedia fork into two projects? And if so why? Seems like a lot of wasted effort to have two projects in the same language and also wasted interwiki link functionality since the more popular Spanish wiki is not on the same server (could we make interwiki links anyway?). This Espa�ol/Castellano split makes about as much sense as having separate American English and British English wikipedias would.
BTW, why are we reporting the stats of the http://enciclopedia.us.es for the Spanish wikipedia? Also, when in the world are the non-English wikipedias going to get a software upgrade? I would love to start adding inter wiki lingua links in many of the non-English articles to point back to the English versions (esp. the German chemistry articles � which are quite good, oftentimes better than their English counterparts).
Hum, I just read their about page (warning, my Spanish is rusty). From what I read, they seem to be rather critical of Wikipedia, citing as fact that Wikipedia is a �for-profit project of a North American company� and something about the fact that Wikipedia is at a �dotcom� address. Then they go on to state, again as fact, that the English wikipedia has an �elite with administrator privileges� who �harasses contributors� and �censure content� and �prohibit editing of certain pages�. Yikes! Do we deserve this?
--maveric149
=====
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Then they go on to state, again as
fact, that the English wikipedia has an ìelite with administrator privilegesî who ìharasses contributorsî and ìcensure contentî and ìprohibit editing of certain pagesî. Yikes! Do we deserve this?
--maveric149
"Oh wad some power the giftie gie us To see oursels as others see us! It wad frae mony a blunder free us, And foolish notion; What airs in dress and gait wad lea'e us, And ev'n devoltion!"
Robert Burn, "To a Louse"
A few of you can be a bit officious.
Fred Bauder
Daniel Mayer wrote:
I just noticed that in addition to the Spanish/Castilian wikipedia at http://es.wikipedia.com/wiki.cgi?Portada (using the old, ugly and difficult to use UseMod wikiware) with 1400 articles there is a very lively FDL’d Spanish wiki encyclopedia at http://enciclopedia.us.es/ (using php wikiware) with nearly 9,000 articles.
Did the Spanish wikipedia fork into two projects? And if so why?
Remember the brief ruckus a few weeks ago re: a submitted new logo image for the French wikipedia? Imagine that kind of discussion going on for several weeks with no voice of reason.
Seems like a lot of wasted effort to have two projects in the same language and also wasted interwiki link functionality since the more popular Spanish wiki is not on the same server (could we make interwiki links anyway?). This Español/Castellano split makes about as much sense as having separate American English and British English wikipedias would.
Yes, it's pointless and stupid. I would recommend simply dumping the nearly unused one on Wikipedia and changing the URL used for the lang links for Spanish to point to the forked server, at least if it's okay with them.
BTW, why are we reporting the stats of the http://enciclopedia.us.es for the Spanish wikipedia?
Because we intlwiki folks are completists.
Also, when in the world are the non-English wikipedias going to get a software upgrade?
Gee, wouldn't we like to know? We were promised an upgrade in March. Then in May. Then in June. Never materialized; at most we got a test server...
Hum, I just read their about page (warning, my Spanish is rusty). From what I read, they seem to be rather critical of Wikipedia, citing as fact that Wikipedia is a “for-profit project of a North American company” and something about the fact that Wikipedia is at a “dotcom” address. Then they go on to state, again as fact, that the English wikipedia has an “elite with administrator privileges” who “harasses contributors” and “censure content” and “prohibit editing of certain pages”. Yikes! Do we deserve this?
What, does 24 write in Spanish now? ;)
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Hello Daniel
You should go to the international mailing list (or register for that matter). I think there are many comments that should lighten the matter to you. Both on the spanish fork and about the french "threat". It will probably answer some of your questions.
--- Daniel Mayer maveric149@yahoo.com wrote:
I just noticed that in addition to the
interwiki links anyway?). This Espa�ol/Castellano split makes about as much sense as having separate American English and British English wikipedias would.
I don't agree at all with you on this point. Even with a z and s matter, you speak the same language and understand each other. The fork had apparently nothing to do with a castillan and spanish language. The fork seemed to come from a scare upon "english imperialism". Each time I'm on the english wiki, I feel somehow unconfortable. First because it's not easy to get when people are serious or joking, second because there are many points you don't get easily, third because you don't always succeed to polish your own comments as you would do in your language. I am sure you could understand what I mean here. And believe me, it's easy for a non english speaking to feel pushed.
As Brion (?) and others stated it, many of us don't understand english well enough to wander on the meta for example. Even after 10 years learning english.
and something about the fact that Wikipedia is at a �dotcom� address. Then they go on to state, again as fact, that the English wikipedia has an �elite with administrator privileges� who �harasses contributors� and �censure content� and �prohibit editing of certain pages�. Yikes! Do we deserve this?
btw, none of us on the french wiki has any admin privilege. Well, we have to take the time to ask Jimbo. That doesnot seem essential right now, but that's a fact :-) But, as far as I know, we have freedom on all our pages. Thanksfully.
Does it trouble you not it is a .dotcom ??? It troubles some of us.
I know some of us seem to consider forking later on a sort of natural occurrence. Others do not...
As for updating the software, we will finish the mainpage translation this we hopefully (probably as we reach 1000 articles, I am very happy about that). After that, it all relies on others to do the update. Who is taking care of that ?
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Anthere wrote:
The fork seemed to come from a scare upon "english imperialism". Each time I'm on the english wiki, I feel somehow unconfortable. First because it's not easy to get when people are serious or joking, second because there are many points you don't get easily, third because you don't always succeed to polish your own comments as you would do in your language. I am sure you could understand what I mean here. And believe me, it's easy for a non english speaking to feel pushed.
As Brion (?) and others stated it, many of us don't understand english well enough to wander on the meta for example. Even after 10 years learning english.
For those of you English-speakers out there who sort of know another language but aren't fluent in it, I highly recommend you try to participate in the wiki for that language (if there is one). It will be a learning experience!
* All your contributions are going to be heavily edited for language/style corrections. Don't take it personally...
* In Talk-page discussions, you're not familiar with the existing conventions and "power structure" -- whose comments to take seriously, whose to consider, whose to ignore.
* Was that a joke?
Now, imagine that _those_ people run the server that the English wiki is on, and that this mailing list is in their language, and that you have to go to them with any problems, questions, or suggestions. You'd consider forking too. :)
btw, none of us on the french wiki has any admin privilege. Well, we have to take the time to ask Jimbo. That doesnot seem essential right now, but that's a fact :-) But, as far as I know, we have freedom on all our pages. Thanksfully.
The admin privledges are sort of a mix of two things:
* Convenience features (renaming articles instead of laboriously copying the text and thus splitting the edit history over two entries)
* Anti-vandalism measures (ability to outright delete pages and uploaded files that are obscene, illegal, or inappropriate, and to ban people who frequently do such)
Does it trouble you not it is a .dotcom ??? It troubles some of us.
The top-level domain doesn't mean much these days. "Userfriendly.org" and "slashdot.org" are particularly prominent .org sites that run advertisements and have paid subscription options... Heck, User Friendly is a publicly-traded company!
I know some of us seem to consider forking later on a sort of natural occurrence. Others do not...
There are forks and then there are forks...
I personally would have no real objection to an _amicable_ fork, in which a group runs their own server but we all work together on matters of mutual interest: use of the name, integration/linking between languages, sharing updates to the software, etc.
The Spanish fork was rather unpleasant, no doubt in large part due to the language problem.
As for updating the software, we will finish the mainpage translation this we hopefully (probably as we reach 1000 articles, I am very happy about that). After that, it all relies on others to do the update. Who is taking care of that ?
Well, I'm going to be pushing for getting the Esperanto wiki upgraded as soon as possible, so I can throw in the other languages along with it. :) Now that we've got the new Wikipedia server set up with more access for the developers, it should be easier to get this done.
(Note that there's an even newer version of the Wiki software in development, but we'll adapt the translations etc after we've got things transferred to the version we *know* works.)
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Anthere wrote:
I don't agree at all with you on this point. Even with a z and s matter, you speak the same language and understand each other. The fork had apparently nothing to do with a castillan and spanish language. The fork seemed to come from a scare upon "english imperialism".
Whatever the reason, a fork or spinoff is, in my opionion, not necessarily bad. I think it would be worse if Bomis, Inc. was the only entity in this world that has the energy to start and operate general purpose encyclopedias based on Wiki technology. Independence and ownership are strong driving forces that promote responsibility and innovation.
An analogy: Gottlieb Daimler in Germany was the first to build a useful automobile, but the Americans weren't late to "fork" that project, add the assembly line, and build their own cars. The Japanese too stole the idea, and started to compete with the Americans in their own market. Most would agree that the U.S. automotive industry has gained more than they lost from the competition from Japanese car makers. Whining about people who stole ideas and forked projects is not the way forward. Let the forking projects be, let them implement their own innovations (and then steal back their ideas!). Competition is good, we'd better learn to embrace it.
The project at the University of Sevilla is no longer "the Spanish Wikipedia", but a separate project with its own name, "Enciclopedia Libre Universal en Espanol", http://enciclopedia.us.es/ They've grown faster than any non-English Wikipedia, just like the Polish Wikipedia did during its breakout period. Some of their articles are mere templates for geographic place names, but more substance has been added lately.
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